pushing 9mm cast lead bullets

[Shadow9mm]

So loading for 9mm in a 5th Gen G19. Getting ready to start playing with the coated cast lead bullets. Have 2 kinds on Order. To try.

Brazos 125g coated round nose, Hi-tek coated at 0.356 BHN 13
Missouri Bullet 124g coated round nose, Hi-tek coates at 0.356 BHN 18

I did not think about it at the time but cast lead, plated, and jacketed are a bit different. My Berry's plated state not to push past 1250. I have been doing some reading. I have found some saying you should stay closer to 1000fps. I have found some that said they pushed as hard as they could in their 1150 range with no issues.

How much will the coating effect things? will it help or make no difference as far as velocity pushing? I know it will help with leading and I wont need lube.

How much will the BHN help, will the harder bullets hold up better? I know from what I have been reading that the bullet diameter in relation to the bore can have more of an effect on how it shoots, but I'm thinking holding together at higher speed.

Is there any way to tell if I'm going too fast other than key-holing?

I can pull back if I need to, max at this point I would push would be in the 1150-1170 range, which is the max I have gotten with 124g jacketed so far.

On a side note, after some more research, I found this on Missouri's site a ways into the FAQ Section.

What is the maximum velocity of your .317 SnapWhizzle bullet?
I don't know. I don't own that rifle and if I did, I wouldn't be loading it to maximum velocity anyhow. I don't pontificate on topics about which I have no knowledge, so you're better off without my opinion anyhow, probably.

Generally, cast lead bullets at 18 BHN or higher will take 1400 fps from a 6" barrel, faster from rifle (30 fps per inch, approximately.) Coated bullets can probably be run faster. I don't guarantee it but I am told that this is the case.

The cast bullet literature is replete with writing on the subject of various loads for the different calibers. Do some research and you'll find the answers you're looking for.

Will be curious to see how the Brazos 13bhn hold up. It looks like the Missouri bullets should hold up just fine to me pushing.

[74A95]

Coated bullets can be pushed pretty fast. The article below says 1200-1500 for most types, with some coatings good for over 2000 fps.

https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2017/...r-handloaders/

[big al hunter]

I just started casting and powder coating this past year. My 9mm 124 gr coated did well with range scrap lead (BHN about 10). I ran a test series from book min to book max for Titegroup out of the Lyman cast bullet manual. I shoot a Ruger P89. I have also pushed velocity to book max for 44 mag using BHN 10 and BHN 16 bullets. Decent accuracy, no leading. Recovered bullets were slightly smashed on the nose for the BHN 16. The BHN 10 were smashed flat to about half the length of the bullet, but intact. No loss of weight on either worth noting. I don't recall the listed velocity for either load. But I do remember thinking it was very close to jacketed load velocity.

I loaded a small batch for testing. 3 of each charge weight. Didn't want to pull a pile of bullets if the load was leading or inaccurate. I still have testing to do. Hoping my wife took the hint that I wanted a chronograph for Christmas. If she did, I will be able to add actual velocity data to my notes

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by 74A95

Coated bullets can be pushed pretty fast. The article below says 1200-1500 for most types, with some coatings good for over 2000 fps.

https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2017/...r-handloaders/

Interesting article. Although it not clear on whether or not it is talking about the coatings or the bullets themselves when referencing the velocities. it does compare the coatings to copper plates bullets, which I think does mean it is referencing the bulets.

Generally, the coatings are good for velocities in the 1200-1500 fps range, similar to copper plated bullets, which covers the speeds of most handgun cartridges. Some polymer coatings can reportedly be driven to 2000 fps or better, such as claimed by Eggleston Munitions, which makes them a possible choice for some rifle loads.

[74A95]

It's the coatings on the bullets that make those speeds possible. That's the point of the article.

[Shadow9mm]

Ok, got some additional info from Missouri Bullet Company,

With BHN 18 bullets we recomend that you keep them under 1,400 fps. With
the coating we have heard that you can push them up another 200 fps.

so I should be fine velocity wise.

In relation to the bullets I bought from Brazos which are 13BHN, I'm not confident. Their response was

We don't feel comfortable giving out reloading data but we highly suggest that you go to online forums/sites that people have given out reloading data themselves. We also have a Facebook Page Group, "Brazos Bullet Company Reloading Group", where you can join and ask questions such as this. We are sorry we cannot help you, it's a liability thing and we do not have enough staff here that can help with this.

Seems odd to me. I did not consider how fast a bullet could go to be load data...

[noylj]

All I have ever cast for over 45 years have been 10-14 BHN bullets and they are good to at least 1700 fps, when sized to the gun and properly lubed. Over 1500 fps, I will often go to gas checks. Never have needed anything harder as far as alloy goes.
Coating, if undamaged, can take some pretty high velocities. I've never pushed coated bullets any harder than normal cast bullets.
I would always buy a 13 BHN swaged or cast bullet over any 18-22 BHN commercial cast bullet. The only leading I have seen in the last 20 years was from 22 BHN alloy commercial cast bullets. Solved that by LIGHTLY tumble lubing with LLA.
Don't damage the coating. Seat and crimp a bullet and then pull the bullet and inspect for any damage to coating or bullet.
Better worry would be what is the actual groove diameter of your barrel and then order lead bullets at least 0.001" LARGER. Don't assume you know what the groove diameter is. I find that 0.357" diameter lead bullets work quite well in all my 9mm Lugers, except for one Browning Hi-Power with a groove diameter of 0.358+", which Browning reported was within their specification for 9mm Luger barrels.

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by noylj

All I have ever cast for over 45 years have been 10-14 BHN bullets and they are good to at least 1700 fps, when sized to the gun and properly lubed. Over 1500 fps, I will often go to gas checks. Never have needed anything harder as far as alloy goes.
Coating, if undamaged, can take some pretty high velocities. I've never pushed coated bullets any harder than normal cast bullets.
I would always buy a 13 BHN swaged or cast bullet over any 18-22 BHN commercial cast bullet. The only leading I have seen in the last 20 years was from 22 BHN alloy commercial cast bullets. Solved that by LIGHTLY tumble lubing with LLA.
Don't damage the coating. Seat and crimp a bullet and then pull the bullet and inspect for any damage to coating or bullet.
Better worry would be what is the actual groove diameter of your barrel and then order lead bullets at least 0.001" LARGER. Don't assume you know what the groove diameter is. I find that 0.357" diameter lead bullets work quite well in all my 9mm Lugers, except for one Browning Hi-Power with a groove diameter of 0.358+", which Browning reported was within their specification for 9mm Luger barrels.

so incredibly helpful, thank you! Not sure on my groove diameter. I will have to measure. have a 5th gen G19, and a ruger LC9s. If 1 is larger than the other, is it ok to go +.002 larger so it will work well in both?

[totaldla]

I run both Brazos 155gr and MBC 155gr (both Hitek coated) to 1350fps from my 4" 40sw without issue. I use both manufactures 125gr hitek 9mm fodder but I don't load them past 1100fps.

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by noylj

All I have ever cast for over 45 years have been 10-14 BHN bullets and they are good to at least 1700 fps, when sized to the gun and properly lubed. Over 1500 fps, I will often go to gas checks. Never have needed anything harder as far as alloy goes.
Coating, if undamaged, can take some pretty high velocities. I've never pushed coated bullets any harder than normal cast bullets.
I would always buy a 13 BHN swaged or cast bullet over any 18-22 BHN commercial cast bullet. The only leading I have seen in the last 20 years was from 22 BHN alloy commercial cast bullets. Solved that by LIGHTLY tumble lubing with LLA.
Don't damage the coating. Seat and crimp a bullet and then pull the bullet and inspect for any damage to coating or bullet.
Better worry would be what is the actual groove diameter of your barrel and then order lead bullets at least 0.001" LARGER. Don't assume you know what the groove diameter is. I find that 0.357" diameter lead bullets work quite well in all my 9mm Lugers, except for one Browning Hi-Power with a groove diameter of 0.358+", which Browning reported was within their specification for 9mm Luger barrels.

So I measured. LC9s, and 5th gen G19. Both are showing .3550 to .3555 between a couple measurements on both. I got .356, I'm guessing I may need to go to .357?

[pete2]

My handloads are primarily "range fodder", this means that they are the most accurate loads I can make. A self defense round doesn't need to shoot a 2" group at 50yards for pistol or sub 1" groups at 100 Yards------My "range fodder does. If it ain's accurate it's not good for anything.

[HiBC]

I don't own a Glock,so I'm not well versed. My understanding is they have polygonal rifling.
I do not have experience to back it up,but I've heard/read that polygonal rifling and cast bullets are not an ideal combination. Maybe Glock says "Don't"

My imagination says it will be difficult for the bullet to form a seal in the corners. The gas leakage will lead the corners.

Aside from how that may effect the cast bullet performance,following up firing +P jacketed ammo through a leaded barrel may spike pressures.

I can't say I KNOW this stuff,I suggest it.

A conventional land and groove barrel from a supplier such as Lone Wolf might be less than $150 and assure cast bullet success.

[totaldla]

Originally Posted by HiBC

I don't own a Glock,so I'm not well versed. My understanding is they have polygonal rifling.
I do not have experience to back it up,but I've heard/read that polygonal rifling and cast bullets are not an ideal combination. Maybe Glock says "Don't"

My imagination says it will be difficult for the bullet to form a seal in the corners. The gas leakage will lead the corners.

Aside from how that may effect the cast bullet performance,following up firing +P jacketed ammo through a leaded barrel may spike pressures.

I can't say I KNOW this stuff,I suggest it.

A conventional land and groove barrel from a supplier such as Lone Wolf might be less than $150 and assure cast bullet success.

I shoot 125gr hitek coated (Brazos & MBC) in a Glock - never a hitch. Best if you research the issue before posting. Otherwise me and a literal million Glock owners will "educate" you.

[HiBC]

[QUOTEI shoot 125gr hitek coated (Brazos & MBC) in a Glock - never a hitch. Best if you research the issue before posting. Otherwise me and a literal million Glock owners will "educate" you.][/QUOTE]

First,I carefully qualified my comment as being "Not based on my own experience" I'm free to post anything within the forum rules.

You are not a Moderator,so its not up to you to police my post.

You are not the voice of " A million Glock owners" You are the voice of one.

So don't tell me "What I'd best do"

Other credible sources disagree with you.

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by HiBC

[QUOTEI shoot 125gr hitek coated (Brazos & MBC) in a Glock - never a hitch. Best if you research the issue before posting. Otherwise me and a literal million Glock owners will "educate" you.]

First,I carefully qualified my comment as being "Not based on my own experience" I'm free to post anything within the forum rules.

You are not a Moderator,so its not up to you to police my post.

You are not the voice of " A million Glock owners" You are the voice of one.

So don't tell me "What I'd best do"

Other credible sources disagree with you.

just to be fair, lead in a glock barrel can be in the same category as the dreaded "9 vs 40 vs 45" depending on who you run into. I think it was meant more as a friendly caution in case you didn't know what you were getting into.

As far as glocks and polygonal. They are a modified polygonal. As near as I can understand it they filled in the corners of the polygon.

Also I have a Gen 5, which has the marksman barrel, which is a further modification of polygonal with rifling added. I know there were reports of issued in older barrels with certain bullet types.

All in all, for my scenario, lead should be ok. I'm just worried about the bullets being too soft and jumping the rifling.

[HiBC]

Had totalda said "I own and shoot Glocks and in my experience this bullet works fine with polygon rifling" I'd have replied
" Interesting. Thanks!"

Its the style of the boy's reply I did not care for.

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by HiBC

Had totalda said "I own and shoot Glocks and in my experience this bullet works fine with polygon rifling" I'd have replied
" Interesting. Thanks!"

Its the style of the boy's reply I did not care for.

Fair enough. I just know I have jumped to conclusions in here before. Typed vs talking is a different animal, and how things are intended is not always well conveyed in written word. I always try to give some extra leeway in here and not take things over seriously because of that.

[P Flados]

I have worked up an excellent full power cast bullet load for a Glock 17. This load took more development effort than any other cast bullet load I have worked up.

Many others have reported equally good results with cast in Glocks. Some of these folks got lucky and their load worked without any extra development effort. Others had to invest more effort to make things work as desired.

Individual guns can be vastly different with respect to performance with cast bullets. The 9mm is a higher pressure round than many guns. The dimensions and tolerances of the guns, bullets, brass and reloading equipment all conspire to make this round tricky.

My load starts with Lee 120 gr bullets cast from 8-9 bhn range lead. They are powder coated and then sized / "bumped up" slightly to get 0.3595". I use a "book max" charge of Titegroup. The bullets are loaded into brass (select headstamps only) that have been opened up with a custom 0.3575" expander / belling plug. I do bullet seating and bell removal as two separate steps.

In general, powder coat really helps. However it will not prevent leading in the 9mm if you have undersized bullets that allow hot gas to flow past the bullet and "cut" into the bullet surface. This allows lead micro droplets to deposit on the inside of the barrel. Many 9mm loads cause problems not because the bullet was undersized when it was made, but because the bullet became undersized when it was loaded into brass that is too small in ID and to stiff to readily stretch. Harder bullets tend to reduce or sometimes eliminate this last problem.

If a person is having problems, a methodical approach to dealing with it can be helpful. The cast boolit forum has several threads on the subject. Unfortunately figuring out the good advice from the less helpful advice is challenging to say the least.

[Shadow9mm]

well, I have managed to get the 125g cast lead up to 1234fps without issues so far with 6.4g of power pistol (lee max is 6.6). I measured both my barrel as best as possible and they came out to 0.3555 at the largest I could get. I ordered some more bullets in 0.357 just to be on the safe side. I also worked the load back down a ways. I now have a full power training load, and a subsonic load, both of which run well in the gun.

[jetinteriorguy]

A really good source of information on this subject is Castboolits.com. Check them out for any and all info you could ever need for cast and coated bullets and equipment.

[Unclenick]

You can look at Richard Lee's information on cast bullets. He made tests showing that cast bullet accuracy remains best when the pressure does not exceed about 1280 times the BHN number. But he had a 10% margin allowance, so 1400 would be closer to an actual deformation limit. So, if you load right up to but never exceed 30,000 psi, dividing that number by 1400 gives a BHN of 21. It's not that you have to have bullets that hard, but rather just that you guarantee pressure won't distort the bullet when you follow that number. BHN 16 would then be 22,500 psi, which is a fine number for target shooting. All that said, Elmer Keith loaded BHN 12 up to full 44 Mag pressures, so I think a lot depends on bore finish.

I think the quote from MB in your first post is the most sensible one. Velocities can't determine the limits for a bullet unless the bullets in question are all fired in the same cartridge with the same barrel length and use propellants with the same burning characteristics charged for the same peak pressure for the velocity in question. So velocity limits are more like clues to give you a feel for it but have no absolute meaning outside the gun and load they were tested with.

Regarding things like the polygonal barrel issue, the problem is that one person's experience may not match another's because they don't own the exact same gun. The lead high-pressure issues reported with polygon barrels are partly based on Glock recommending they not be used. Guns & Ammo concluded this was due to the rough surface left by the Tenifer surface treating process. But the EPA banned the Tenifer process, so it is no longer used on U.S. Glocks, which means that if your gun is recent enough production, that wouldn't be an issue. There have also been reports of Glocks shooting lead just fine for hundreds of rounds and then, suddenly, over the space of one magazine full of lead, getting to high pressure. My guess is that could be due to bullet sizing allowing a bit of gas bypass in the outside corners of the polygon and that when it builds enough, the bullet has too little grip on it and strips in the bore. The sudden opening of your group and/or keyholing would be your clues this process is at work. Sizing bullets 0.002" over rather than the more common 0.001" over (assuming your rounds feed OK like that) could help prevent the gas cutting. The bullet coating can also help by squeezing into the rifling corners more fully for the seal. You want, if a choice has to be made, for your bullet base to be coated well over coating the tip, though the latter looks nicer.

[rc]

I'm not sure if glocks still have a problem with lead. Polygonal rifling is not a good match from what I have read. That being said, 147grain lead is the way I would go if choosing lead for 9mm. That way you have loads in the 1000fps range that will function the gun and be fairly accurate.

[lll Otto lll]

Originally Posted by Shadow9mm

well, I have managed to get the 125g cast lead up to 1234fps without issues so far with 6.4g of power pistol (lee max is 6.6).

Did you clock that velocity using a chronograph? If so, is that the low, high or avg. reading. SD?

[lugerstew]

I am using SNS 240 grain coated bullets in my 44 mag pistols and carbine, one thing strange in the carbine is, if I use blue dot,, the bullets go sideways around 1400fps or so, but when I load close to max loads with H110, I can shoot around 1800fps and the same bullets shoot excellent. I'm not positive, but I think it has something to do with the powder burn rate, and I believe I have read on their website to please not push their bullets with fast/hot burning powders.

[Unclenick]

Blue Dot is making higher pressure than H110. I didn't expect it to be that much higher, but apparently, it is. As I described in post #21, it is actually the pressure that is the limiting factor and not velocity.