CVA 444 marlin

[FrankenMauser]

4198 and RL-7 are the go-to powders for .444 Marlin.
Others can work, but those work the best.
RL-7 is preferable if you start working with heavies (330+ gr).


RL-10x is the only powder I recommend not using in the cartridge. It was a filthy mess, due to the pressure level, and performance was very disappointing. (3-5" groups at 100 yd, from rifles proven to be capable of far better.) I wasted a lot of bullets testing that powder.

[ballisticxlr]

I had really good luck with IMR 4895 and 240-265gr pills. In the end it was entirely too much gun for the itty bitty California blacktail deer and even the black bear. It now sits untouched next to a dozen other guns I never shoot.

[stagpanther]

Thanks for the recommendations. No joy with AA 1680? That one pops up a lot--plus I have a lot of it.

[FrankenMauser]

I haven't tried 1680. I don't think I have any, but do have several powders that are slight derivations of the same parent powder (Explosia D.063). I reserve those for .300 Blk and .475 Tremor.

All of the testing that I have done came back to the same three powders that were always recommended to me, anyway: H4198, IMR4198, and RL-7.


One caveat that I guess I should put forth:
I don't play with light bullets in .444 Marlin. Powders that do better at the light end are out of my experience range. I run Hornady 265 FPs as my lightest bullet, and generally play in the 275-310 gr range.

[stagpanther]

I have some 4198--not a lot--I'll try it out.

[eastbank]

i have a tc custom shop 375 jdj rifle (24" barrel), one of the best calibers for a single shot(444 necked down to .375), simple to make. just run the lubed 444 case into the .375 jdj size die and you are ready to load full power loads from the start(no fire forming to form). with 51 grs of H-4895 for 2300 fps with a 220 gr hornady, i think i can get to 2500 fps as 51 grs doesn,t show any pressure at all. it comes close to the .348 win lever action in power.

[stagpanther]

Sounds interesting eastbank, 375 is a nice bullet (I have a 375 ruger rifle).

[bamaranger]

I made a comment elsewhere about this old wildcat, but it seems fitting to mention it here. I've got an old (1960-70?) magazine, I think a "Rifleman" where the author developed a wildcat .44, using a 300 H&H case and .429 bullets. Chambered the creation in a '98 Mauser action, and called it the .44 ALPEN, useful from Alaska to Pennsylvania. One of his problems, as I recall, was finding suitable .429 jacketed bullets, as all that was available commercially at the time .429's at 240 grains. He was hard casting heavier designs, perhaps Keith type and others. His other issue was headspace, which he solved using the belted H&H case. I've not seen the magazine in my archives for a long time.

The rimmed .444 case, and the heavier .429 bullets of today, would solve all (well most) of his problems. I don't believe the .444 had hit the market when the article was written, not sure about that. The belted H&H case headspaced on the belt, and would stack and feed from bolt rifle box magazines, something the .444 might be challenged to do reliably.

[stagpanther]

In my break-open single-shot CVA the case appears to headspace on the rim and rifle's "non extractor."

[Jack O'Conner]

I opted for a CVA Hunter in 44 MAG. It seems to shoot all bullet weights very accurately but best of all is Hornady Lever-evolution ammo. For hogs, I load Speer 270 grain soft tip for maximum penetration.

Jack

[stagpanther]

I opted for a CVA Hunter in 44 MAG. It seems to shoot all bullet weights very accurately but best of all is Hornady Lever-evolution ammo. For hogs, I load Speer 270 grain soft tip for maximum penetration.

I've seen a couple of those still available--if I didn't already have lever guns in 44mag I'd get one. I've also seen a CVA scout still available in 35 whelen--I definitely would consider getting that too--but I have a superb 77 Hawkeye in that cartridge so I'm passing on it as well.

[Scorch]

You put a 444 barrel on a Mauser action?

Absolutely! It fits the magazine, feeds without reworking the feed rails, and I always wanted a big bore Mauser. Mauser made a 10.75X57mm, but it would have meant custom dies, and it was basically a rimless 444 anyway. So 444 it is! Why? Because I can!

The belted H&H case headspaced on the belt, and would stack and feed from bolt rifle box magazines, something the .444 might be challenged to do reliably.

Not to start an argument here, but I run 444 in a 98 Mauser and I have built several for customers. It is easy to feed out of a box magazine. It is not a rimmed cartridge, it is a semi-rimmed cartridge. The rim diameter is .504, but the head diameter is .470, giving it a .017" rim, about the same rim as the 220 Swift and about the same as a magnum belt but without the hassles of a belt. A belted case might be nice for a little extra oomph, but I built it specifically because of factory ammo availability (sounds like an oxymoron, right?).

[stagpanther]

I've never had the pleasure of working with Mauser actions Scorch--so I didn't know whether or not it could be done. Can you run bullets like the cutting edge's at full case length--and I assume longer COL? That's pretty cool.

[Scorch]

Can you run bullets like the cutting edge's at full case length--and I assume longer COL?

Yes, the 98 is not limited in how long of a cartridge it can handle, unlike repeaters like the Marlin 444s. My 98 was a 8X57 (not commercial '06 length), but I still have room in the mag in front of the bullet. I plan to use some of the Cutting Edge 300s when I load up my brass. Better BC and velocity than the Hornady Flextips.

[stagpanther]

Yes, the 98 is not limited in how long of a cartridge it can handle, unlike repeaters like the Marlin 444s. My 98 was a 8X57 (not commercial '06 length), but I still have room in the mag in front of the bullet. I plan to use some of the Cutting Edge 300s when I load up my brass. Better BC and velocity than the Hornady Flextips.

Very cool...I got the .311 BC from CE's data sheet so I bet it will perform very well. Hornady's superformance 265 interlock 444 is a tough act to beat. I have some superformance powder but have never been able to get very accurate results with it in other cartridges.

[stagpanther]

After almost 3 weeks the postal service still doesn't know exactly where my 444 dies are (mailed priority)--but they assure me they are somewhere on planet earth and will someday be delivered. Meanwhile, the cutting edge bullets I ordered Friday afternoon where delivered today. Go figure.

I do have 44 mag dies, so I figure I could at least get an approximation of what a 444 marlin cartridge might look like with a Maximus bullet. You can get the bullet to fit without trimming the case length--but then you need to trim the neck inside to take pressure off the drive band which is crucial to sealing the bullet in the bore well. I decided to go ahead with trimming the case length to 2.07" which is still a bit longer than what hornady recommends for their 265 ftx so that the drive band is outside the neck when seated to a COL of 2.848."

Keep in mind this is a "hypothetical" idea at this point and I do not in any way recommend that it is a safe or useable configuration.

[FrankenMauser]

Looks spicy.
I haven't tried any of those, since I don't really shoot the single-shot any more.

but they assure me they are somewhere on planet earth and will someday be delivered

I had a very rare (but not too valuable) item disappear in the mail on the 16th. Filed a claim. USPS rejected it. "It will be delivered late."

How the hell do you know that, if you don't know where it is? Are you just lying to everyone, and you happen to know that it's actually sitting in an intentionally-stashed semi-trailer somewhere in New Jersey?

[Scorch]

That looks exciting! Not being limited to lever action pressures, you could get that moving right along!

[stagpanther]

Not being limited to lever action pressures, you could get that moving right along!

I've been wondering about that--what pmax the hunter could actually take. QL comes up with a pmax for the cartridge of around 51,000 psi (CUP test). All the load data I've found looks like it's based on Marlin lever gun limits.

Looks spicy.
I haven't tried any of those, since I don't really shoot the single-shot any more.

They are also very expensive; pretty much testing with one powder can cost a lot.

CE makes points for the bullets but unfortunately they were out of them for the .429.

I had a very rare (but not too valuable) item disappear in the mail on the 16th. Filed a claim. USPS rejected it. "It will be delivered late."

How the hell do you know that, if you don't know where it is?

That's about the same day my order was sent. LOL. What I've noticed is that this past year the postal service stopped giving "precise" tracking information without you having to pay for it; much as the other package delivery services have done.

[stagpanther]

First attempt at a test did not go very well. The first low end charge left the muzzle at around 2240 fps--it was one which I had seated the drive band into the case neck. The next one of the same charge weight with the drive band outside the neck went screaming out the muzzle at just over 2,500 fps. The 3rd shot didn't go anywhere at all--the genix primer was a dud and failed to ignite even though it had repeated solid firing pin hits. When I pulled the cartridge--the bullet was left in the chamber so it was game over for now. I'm not exactly sure how to crimp a cutting edge bullet with the drive band outside the case mouth.

[brasscollector]

Do you have to crimp for a single-shot? I wouldn't think it to be absolutely necessary myself but maybe I'm overlooking something.

[Scorch]

A 300 grainer at 2.500 fps puts you in 375 H&H territory, over 4,000 ft-lbs!

[stagpanther]

A 300 grainer at 2.500 fps puts you in 375 H&H territory, over 4,000 ft-lbs!

Forgot to mention--I started out with 250 gr bullets. Sorry.

Do you have to crimp for a single-shot? I wouldn't think it to be absolutely necessary myself but maybe I'm overlooking something.

It's a bit of an odd fit, I'm using Remington cases and after trimming the bullets are a tad loose in the case, I'm thinking maybe because there actually is a slight taper to the case walls. The cutting edge approach is to seal the bullet to the bore/rifling with the drive band as opposed to the diameter of the shank. AFAICT, the drive band is around .431 while the rest of the shank is about .427/8. This is supposed to result in better seal and less friction. To keep the drive band "intact" you should seat it outside the case mouth. My dilemma is how do you crimp the case with the .431 drive band in front of the case mouth.

[brasscollector]

Ah gotcha
I suppose you could turn down the expander and leave yourself with a bit more grip on the smaller shank. Of course that would mean you'd have to buy another expander for anything of a standard size.

[stagpanther]

Ah gotcha
I suppose you could turn down the expander and leave yourself with a bit more grip on the smaller shank. Of course that would mean you'd have to buy another expander for anything of a standard size.

I don't even have 444 dies yet, I kinda sorta "bootlegged" my 44 mag dies into stop-gap service.