Okay,I was wrong and Rob Leatham was right

Rangerrich99 · July 18, 2017, 06:58 PM

Not that I really expected to have any other result.

So here's the deal: in a recent thread I read that Rob Leatham was a trigger slapper. Well, I wasn't sure I knew who Rob Leatham was, so I did a search, and promptly found several YT videos with Leatham giving lessons on how to shoot fast.

As soon as I saw the video titled something like, "Aiming is useless," I automatically felt some trepidation as I clicked on the video. I mean, what kind of shooting instructor tells you that aiming is useless? I thought, "this guy is going to turn out to be some kind of hack." Well, once I watched the video, I realized that I agreed with Mr. Leatham. And once I tried his lesson at the range, I was almost amazed at how easy it was to get consistent clean breaks on the trigger once I didn't care about hitting a particular spot on the target.

Here's a target shot at the beginning of my session. Ten yards with my Beretta PX4 Storm in .40 S&W:

What's important to note here is that I wasn't aiming. I simply pressed the trigger once the front sight was anywhere inside the green area of the head. The only thing I was focused on at this point was not allowing the gun to move while I was pressing the trigger.

Moving on, the bit that initially really caught my attention was about how as one fires quickly your body has a susceptibility to drift backwards. I recognized that tendency in my own shooting more than a few times, so today I decided to try a couple of his tips on how to combat that issue.

Well, not surprisingly, his lessons worked. First, I tried shooting my usual stance, six rounds as fast as normally train. Again, unsurprisingly, it was clear that my rounds climbed about 4 inches from the first round to the last. Next, I tried leaning forward until I was literally on the balls of my feet for the next six. Interestingly, my POI shifted about two inches lower than my usual POI, but now my pattern was more circular instead of ovoid.

Next I tried opening my support hand, so I could see how tight my grip needed to be. Again, I found that I needed to grip the gun more tightly than what I had been using in the past. And was pleasantly surprised at how quickly and accurately I could shoot essentially one-handed once I had made the change to gripping more tightly.

Now, I don't want anyone to believe that a single range session cured all of my shooting ills, because it didn't. My groups didn't shrink appreciably, in fact they grew larger for the most part. And I still had a few fliers (5 total out of 150 rounds). I'm not concerned about this right now, as I'm trying to teach my body, in particular my hands and eyes, some new tricks. However, for a first attempt, I'm fairly well satisfied at the results, and I am looking forward to next week's range session.

gwpercle · July 18, 2017, 07:54 PM

Rob who ????
Oh ! that Leatherman guy, yeah he might know a little something.

FITASC · July 18, 2017, 08:14 PM

Yeah, he might have a point or two worth listening to..........

FireForged · July 18, 2017, 08:15 PM

I hate to tell you this but .. that's called aiming. If you are using the front sight post or any other reference point on the gun which is reasonably in your field of vision, you are aiming. If you want to shoot at half hip while focused on the target, I will accept that you are not aiming but rather intuitively pointing.

The whole premise of "aiming is useless" is silly. Can you shoot without aiming?..sure. Is point shooting more prudent than traditionally aiming in some circumstances?.. sure. Saying that aiming is useless sounds like a marketing phrase designed to get your attention.

I will aim my gun as best I can in every circumstance that allows it. When I cant aim traditionally, I will do my best point shooting and transition back to aimed fire at the earliest opportunity.

If a person intentionally foregoes using the sights in circumstance which would obviously allow the use of them, ... I am not impressed.

variants of a flash sight picture is nothing new

-good luck

ps.. as a person who is also a member of the public at large, please aim your gun if you are going to use it in public. thank you

Rangerrich99 · July 18, 2017, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FireForged

I hate to tell you this but .. that's called aiming. If you are using the front sight post or any other reference point on the gun which is reasonably in your field of vision, you are aiming. If you want to shoot at half hip while focused on the target, I will accept that you are not aiming but rather intuitively pointing.

The whole premise of "aiming is useless" is silly. Can you shoot without aiming?..sure. Is point shooting more prudent than traditionally aiming in some circumstances?.. sure. Saying that aiming is useless sounds like a marketing phrase designed to get your attention.

I will aim my gun as best I can in every circumstance that allows it. When I cant aim traditionally, I will do my best point shooting and transition back to aimed fire at the earliest opportunity.

If a person intentionally foregoes using the sights in circumstance which would obviously allow the use of them, ... I am not impressed.

variants of a flash sight picture is nothing new

-good luck

ps.. as a person who is also a member of the public at large, please aim your gun if you are going to use it in public. thank you

Okay, and that's where I would completely agree with you, which is why I felt the misgivings I did when I saw the title of that video. It wasn't until I watched the thing that I realized the title was a little misleading. But it does catch your attention, which may have been the idea.

See, Mr. Leatham doesn't say that aiming is useless, period. What he in fact says is that aiming is useless until one has mastered the skill of not moving the gun while pressing the trigger. He actually has a few things to say about the subject, which I'm not inclined to go into here, but trust me, watch that video, and see if I'm right. or he's right, or whatever. The point being, that in spite of the misleading title of the video, Mr. Leatham makes some very intelligent observations about how to learn the fundamentals of shooting a handgun. You just have to ignore the title of the video.

But to your response, Leatham doesn't say, "aiming is ALWAYS useless." Or anything remotely like that. If I had to paraphrase him, I'd say that he's saying that learning how to aim is useless at first, until you learn not to move the gun while pressing the trigger. Or something to that effect.

Deaf Smith · July 18, 2017, 09:15 PM

Quote:

until one has mastered the skill of not moving the gun while pressing the trigger.

Yes that is called trigger control. Index and trigger control is the foundation of any accuracy. You index is 'aiming' and controlling the trigger, fast or slow, keeps the weapon on target.

Nothing new here. Thing is, there are several ways to control the trigger and there are several ways to index the weapon. That is where one needs to explore.

Deaf

g.willikers · July 19, 2017, 08:59 AM

Good reason to curb one's judgement until you hear the "rest of the story."

Don Fischer · July 19, 2017, 10:39 AM

Been a long time since I heard the term, slap the trigger. Always used to be associated with shooting a shotgun as I recall. Ya don't squeeze off a shot with a shotgun, you slap the trigger!

Front sight, never understood what people were talking about when they mentioned that. I don't shoot specifically an auto loader very well. But at 10-20' and a large target, how accurate do you have to be? I quit aiming and started pointing, got better pretty quick but, gonna have to try that front sight thing! I wouldn't think it possible to be using handgun as many years as I have and not be a whole lot better than I am with them! But if you are within 20' of me and a target about the size of a watermelon, you got a problem!

Jim Watson · July 19, 2017, 05:45 PM

Even bullseye shooters have the concept of "area aiming."
Gil Hebard pointed out that you will be in Sharpshooter if all you can do is hit the black.

James K · July 19, 2017, 09:02 PM

Saying shots are not aimed in that kind of shooting is not really true. (if it were, you could point the gun at the sky and hit the bullseye every shot.)

I never got very good at it but at one time I was able to aim the gun, and then fire several shots; I could hold the gun solidly enough with one hand that I could keep a good group at the under 10 yard range. The gun would recoil, of course, but would come back to the aim point the same way it would with a Ransom rest, except that instead of springs and rubber bands, my muscles would bring the gun back to the right point. I could reliably roll cans the same way and that target, while larger, is moving, something the illustrated target is not doing. Again, the eyes and muscles keep the gun "on target" even when the target is moving.

Jim

Bartholomew Roberts · July 20, 2017, 07:55 AM

One thing that keeping your eye glued to the front sight will do is give you instant visual feedback about your trigger control and grip. If the sight isn't recoiling straight up and straight down, you are doing something wrong.

mavracer · July 20, 2017, 09:59 AM

Quote:

If I had to paraphrase him, I'd say that he's saying that learning how to aim is useless at first, until you learn not to move the gun while pressing the trigger. Or something to that effect.

Yep, sure you can mask the effects of not "truly learning" trigger control with grip and stance and finding "the right" gun, but if a person really masters trigger control grip and stance and gun matter very little. You can hold the gun upside down and pull the trigger with your pinky and hit the target.
Ask me how I know that ��

July 18, 2017, 06:58 PM	#1
Rangerrich99 Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2014 Location: Kinda near Phoenix, AZ Posts: 1,254	Okay,I was wrong and Rob Leatham was right Not that I really expected to have any other result. So here's the deal: in a recent thread I read that Rob Leatham was a trigger slapper. Well, I wasn't sure I knew who Rob Leatham was, so I did a search, and promptly found several YT videos with Leatham giving lessons on how to shoot fast. As soon as I saw the video titled something like, "Aiming is useless," I automatically felt some trepidation as I clicked on the video. I mean, what kind of shooting instructor tells you that aiming is useless? I thought, "this guy is going to turn out to be some kind of hack." Well, once I watched the video, I realized that I agreed with Mr. Leatham. And once I tried his lesson at the range, I was almost amazed at how easy it was to get consistent clean breaks on the trigger once I didn't care about hitting a particular spot on the target. Here's a target shot at the beginning of my session. Ten yards with my Beretta PX4 Storm in .40 S&W: What's important to note here is that I wasn't aiming. I simply pressed the trigger once the front sight was anywhere inside the green area of the head. *The only thing I was focused on at this point was not allowing the gun to move while I was pressing the trigger.* Moving on, the bit that initially really caught my attention was about how as one fires quickly your body has a susceptibility to drift backwards. I recognized that tendency in my own shooting more than a few times, so today I decided to try a couple of his tips on how to combat that issue. Well, not surprisingly, his lessons worked. First, I tried shooting my usual stance, six rounds as fast as normally train. Again, unsurprisingly, it was clear that my rounds climbed about 4 inches from the first round to the last. Next, I tried leaning forward until I was literally on the balls of my feet for the next six. Interestingly, my POI shifted about two inches lower than my usual POI, but now my pattern was more circular instead of ovoid. Next I tried opening my support hand, so I could see how tight my grip needed to be. Again, I found that I needed to grip the gun more tightly than what I had been using in the past. And was pleasantly surprised at how quickly and accurately I could shoot essentially one-handed once I had made the change to gripping more tightly. Now, I don't want anyone to believe that a single range session cured all of my shooting ills, because it didn't. My groups didn't shrink appreciably, in fact they grew larger for the most part. And I still had a few fliers (5 total out of 150 rounds). I'm not concerned about this right now, as I'm trying to teach my body, in particular my hands and eyes, some new tricks. However, for a first attempt, I'm fairly well satisfied at the results, and I am looking forward to next week's range session. Last edited by Rangerrich99; July 18, 2017 at 07:18 PM.

July 18, 2017, 08:14 PM	#3
FITASC Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2014 Posts: 6,446	Yeah, he might have a point or two worth listening to.......... __________________ "I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa

July 18, 2017, 08:15 PM	#4
FireForged Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 1999 Location: Rebel South USA Posts: 2,074	I hate to tell you this but .. that's called aiming. If you are using the front sight post or any other reference point on the gun which is reasonably in your field of vision, you are aiming. If you want to shoot at half hip while focused on the target, I will accept that you are not aiming but rather intuitively pointing. The whole premise of "aiming is useless" is silly. Can you shoot without aiming?..sure. Is point shooting more prudent than traditionally aiming in some circumstances?.. sure. Saying that aiming is useless sounds like a marketing phrase designed to get your attention. I will aim my gun as best I can in every circumstance that allows it. When I cant aim traditionally, I will do my best point shooting and transition back to aimed fire at the earliest opportunity. If a person intentionally foregoes using the sights in circumstance which would obviously allow the use of them, ... I am not impressed. variants of a flash sight picture is nothing new -good luck ps.. as a person who is also a member of the public at large, please aim your gun if you are going to use it in public. thank you __________________ Life is a web woven by necessity and chance... Last edited by FireForged; July 18, 2017 at 08:21 PM.

July 19, 2017, 08:59 AM	#7
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	Good reason to curb one's judgement until you hear the "rest of the story." __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

July 18, 2017, 07:54 PM	#2
gwpercle Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2012 Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana Posts: 1,752	Rob who ???? Oh ! that Leatherman guy, yeah he might know a little something.

July 19, 2017, 10:39 AM	#8
Don Fischer Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2017 Posts: 1,868	Been a long time since I heard the term, slap the trigger. Always used to be associated with shooting a shotgun as I recall. Ya don't squeeze off a shot with a shotgun, you slap the trigger! Front sight, never understood what people were talking about when they mentioned that. I don't shoot specifically an auto loader very well. But at 10-20' and a large target, how accurate do you have to be? I quit aiming and started pointing, got better pretty quick but, gonna have to try that front sight thing! I wouldn't think it possible to be using handgun as many years as I have and not be a whole lot better than I am with them! But if you are within 20' of me and a target about the size of a watermelon, you got a problem!

July 19, 2017, 05:45 PM	#9
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	Even bullseye shooters have the concept of "area aiming." Gil Hebard pointed out that you will be in Sharpshooter if all you can do is hit the black.

July 19, 2017, 09:02 PM	#10
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Saying shots are not aimed in that kind of shooting is not really true. (if it were, you could point the gun at the sky and hit the bullseye every shot.) I never got very good at it but at one time I was able to aim the gun, and then fire several shots; I could hold the gun solidly enough with one hand that I could keep a good group at the under 10 yard range. The gun would recoil, of course, but would come back to the aim point the same way it would with a Ransom rest, except that instead of springs and rubber bands, my muscles would bring the gun back to the right point. I could reliably roll cans the same way and that target, while larger, is moving, something the illustrated target is not doing. Again, the eyes and muscles keep the gun "on target" even when the target is moving. Jim

July 20, 2017, 07:55 AM	#11
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	One thing that keeping your eye glued to the front sight will do is give you instant visual feedback about your trigger control and grip. If the sight isn't recoiling straight up and straight down, you are doing something wrong.