Stopping A Charging Bear

[rickmc]

I enjoy going to the range 2-3 times a month with my 9mm Sig and am quite happy with my results but now I'm hoping to tap into some wisdom involving a completely different situation. I'm going to find myself in the upcoming years hiking in the high mountains in bear country. I want to be able to carry a firearm that will kill or at least turn a charging bear that I would come up on by accident. A revolver like a .454 or.460 or .500 in a holster would be convenient to access but I'm afraid that because the encounter would happen so fast and so much adrenaline would be gushing through me, I may not be able to get the controlled, accurate shots that I'd need. I also don't want to depend on proper wind direction, for pepper spray.

For the purposes of this discussion I'll let you know that I'll practice on a regular basis with whatever solution we come up with and that includes testing different loads to maximize reliability. I'll always have the gun properly cleaned and lubricated, as well. In my scenario, let's also say that from the time I raise the weapon up and get a line of sight, I have only two seconds to save my life. Realistically a bear charging straight at me presents a small target (head or just below the nose) so I'm thinking what would happen is I'll knock it down, change my shooting angle and deliver the final kill shot(s).

Right now, I'm leading toward a 12 gauge semi-auto shotgun, 18.5" barrel with a sling. I know that a pump is more reliable but given the very short amount of reaction time I'll have, I'll probably get only two, maybe three shots off with a pump. Working a pump under that much stress WILL work against me. I started to look at semi-auto shotguns that 3-gunners use (because of fast cycle times and being able to handle combinations of different loads) and I'm leaning toward a Beretta 1301 Comp. I could get 5 maybe 6 shots off in two seconds and still stay on target. Any thoughts?

Ammo: Shooting a combination of 3" Brenneke slugs and either 00 or 000? That would give me a little more margin of error. Would a solution in 3 1/2" shells in a 10 ga be too hard to control in a rapid shooting situation? Here's also something I've never seen talked about on forum boards...I know you can get 12 ga pepper rounds but they are only effective at fairly close range. Would they be effective at all on bears or would there be too little pepper concentration to bet my life on? Also what about one of my rounds being a 12 ga dragons breath? I'm not looking to burn a forest down but if I could turn the bear away and not have to kill it, would that be an option?
Rick

[Glenn E. Meyer]

There are many, many sources of bear tactics. I might suggest that you research them thoroughly before posting solutions that have been examined and abandoned.

Folks, if you respond - please reference such and not just uninformed speculation. We have people with real expertise here.

[T. O'Heir]

Like Glen says, this has been discussed and argued about for eons.
Nothing will stop or 'turn' Yogi in his tracks. Physics doesn't allow it. Yogi can cover 100 yards in less than 6 seconds(actually 5.84 seconds. Yogi can run at 35 MPH. Covers roughly 34 yards in 2 seconds.) when he's PO'd and running flat out. The chances of you recognising the threat, drawing a handgun or getting any shotgun into action and firing an accurate shot in that time are slim.
Oh and slugs. No buckshot. It's unreliable.
"...3 1/2" shells in a 10 ga..." Ever shoot a 3.5" 10 Gauge?

[jmr40]

Lets be realistic. Virtually all bear encounters involve juvenile black bear weighing slightly more than a large Labrador Retriever. Anything involving a bear much over 200 lbs would be extremely rare. Any handgun capable of stopping an athletic human man will also work on most bear.

There are a handful of grizzly bear in and around Yellowstone that are far more aggressive than black bear, but not really much bigger, 50-100 lbs on average and any gun capable of stopping a black bear will stop a grizzly. Realistically, these don't affect many people at all.

The only bears that can justify the big hand cannons are either the extra large brown bear living along the SE Alaska coast or Polar bear above the arctic circle. These animals can exceed 1000 lbs. Unless you're going above the arctic circle or the SE coast of Alaska forget the 460 and 500 magnums.

Any decent 357 mag or 10mm handgun loaded with proper bullets will suffice. I have nothing against a 44 or 41 mag and since most aren't significantly larger than a full size 357 mag why not. Same with properly loaded 45 Colt. Even rounds like 45 ACP and 9mm have been used successfully, the bullet chosen makes more difference than caliber.

If you choose a shotgun use 2 3/4" slugs. Buckshot will not give adequate penetration and 3" or 3.5" shells recoil negate any advantages.

I live, hike, and camp in the N GA, area and often camp and hike in East TN and Western NC. The area is filled with black bear and I've camped in Yellowstone twice. I carry a Glock in 10mm loaded with hot loads of 200 gr hardcast bullets and sleep as well as I would with any gun. I own 357 and 44 mag revolvers that stay at home. Just excess weight to lug around and I don't believe they offer any advantage.

If I were going to Alaska, I wouldn't trust any handgun or shotgun. A handy 30-06 or 375 of some flavor with good bullets would be slung over my shoulder along with the Glock in a holster.

[g.willikers]

Forget hiking, ride a fast off road motorcycle.
And as O'Heir sez, Bears are too fast to stop one while on foot.
Even a mortally wounded one will more than likely bowl you over.
(Seen first hand how fast they are and very glad the car was close by).

[Erno86]

"Pepper spray is a better alternative to a bullet in most situations --- If it fails...you'll still have your gun as a backup."


http://www.sportsafield.com/content/grizzly-defense

I've heard of one gunman, who practices with a volleyball machine thrower {30mph} at the gun range, by simulating a bear charge, with the volley ball being thrown directly at him.

[Lprmcnit]

When these discussions come up, I always cite the following story about the rangers that went to recover Timothy Treadwell's remains. Its found on the Yellowstone Bearman Site. http://www.yellowstone-bearman.com/Tim_Treadwell.html
"Ranger Ellis was standing with ranger Gilliland and Willy Fulton to his left. Ranger Dalrymple was slightly ahead of Gilliland when Gilliland suddenly yells, Bear! while pointing to the right. Ranger Ellis states that he turned and "saw an adult bear moving toward the group about 20 feet away". All four begin yelling in hopes that the bear would see them and move away. Ranger Ellis then states that he "perceived that the bear was well aware of their presence and was stalking them". Ranger Ellis, armed with a 40 cal. handgun begins to fire at about the same time rangers Gilliland and Dalrymple, who were each armed with 12 gauge shotguns loaded with slugs also begin to shoot at the bear.

Ranger Ellis fires 11 times while rangers Gilliland and Dalrymple each fire 5 times, dropping the bear 12 feet away. "That was cutting it thin" stated Ellis. After about 10 seconds the bear dies and Willy Fulton then reportedly says "I want to look that bear in the eyes" and states that he is sure that this was the bear that chased him back to his plane earlier. (Ellis 2003, pg 3)"

A study was done at the University of Calgary and BYU on bear attacks. http://www.vitalground.org/bear-atta.../#.WCaKT3hHarU

One of the interesting findings was that most people became aware of the bear that attacked them when it was only 15-20 feet away. Clearly in most cases there was lack of situational awareness. I wont wade into the caliber wars, i have no real world experience with a bear attack. I have always been interested in the Treadwell case and BYU study, however, and think them significant,because they provide documented evidence concerning attacks.

The study also documents predatory bear attacks; that is some bears stalk and attack humans because they consider them a food source. Whatever weapon one has being aware of ones surroundings is probably of paramount importance

[SJCbklyn]

I would personally feel more comfortable with a 12 ga as you described. Something short and ported to help control the firearm. Round selection for me would be brenneke slugs followed by some 00 buck. Reason being as the bear got closer, the 00 spread would potentially get me a few eyes and nose.

Now that I think about it, my benelli tactical would make a decent bear gun. I added a two rd mag extension so I can get 7 into the gun.

I think there is a place in bear country for the monster bore handguns. Personally I have shot a few and do not think I could accurately put rds on target with one...especially under the circumstances of a charging bear.

[Buzzcook]

Search the forum for "bear" and most of the threads will be about bear defense.

https://www.fws.gov/mountain-prairie...ar%20spray.pdf

From what I've read this article is within the consensus on bear spray vs guns.

It also points out that situational awareness and planning are just as important.

If you do opt for a gun I suggest a 4 bore double.

[JERRYS.]

these guys were ready for it with rifles in hand, and it still was too close for comfort. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8R9fwsEA6M

[dahermit]

"Stopping A Charging Bear" A twelve gauge shotgun and a pair of scissors to cut up his credit cards.

[Minorcan]

I would consider situations where bears attack and how that affects response strategies. Bears are top tier predators and they can be amazingly quiet. This is important because they stalk their prey. This means they can be very close to you before you realize they are there. If they do attack their close proximity doesn't give much response time. Keep in mind no human can out run a bear and the regularly catch and kill deer, elk and other animals that are faster than humans. Many times hunters carrying a rifle may not get a shot off especially if they are carrying over the shoulder using a sling.

Also this link is to a site that gives more realistic size estimates. http://www.mountainnature.com/wildlife/bears/bearid.htm Thinking a bear is about the size of a big dog is not realistic.

This site http://nrmrsgren.weebly.com/r---respiration.html discusses bear respiration and heart rates resting versus running. A bear breaths slowly and thus even with a heart or lung shot they can probably cover a short distance to you and maim or kill you.

So planning may be a better strategy than gun fighting a bear.

Personally I make lots of noise, maintain awareness for what it's worth and carry a rifle and hand gun. I may not get to use them but they do make me feel safer ..

[Rembrandt]

A bears heart rate is roughly 25 beats per minute, this enables them to hibernate through winter and slow their metabolism. It's also why so many hunters killed the bear that killed them. In other words by the time the bear collapsed and went into shock from loss of blood, they had mauled and killed the hunter.

[wmaximusd]

How to stop a charging bear...take away his credit card...sorry

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[rickmc]

Thanks for all the insight and suggestions. I'll definitely research them. I appreciate the info and link to pepper spray. While I do believe it's effective when it works, my father had a situation where the pepper canister was too cold because of freezing northern Minnesota weather and that affected the propellant. I was originally looking for specific gun make & model & most reliable ammo that all of you may have used at some point or are using that would be beneficial for my one specific scenario. Let me fill in more of the blanks and see if that helps:

I'll be on elk hunts in Colorado and while a chance encounter with a grizzly is actually possible, it's not probable. Most likely it will be chance encounters with black bears, if any at all. Yes, I agree that if I accidentally stumble on a bear at 40 feet, I might as well just slather myself in A-1 steak sauce because it's going to be a very bad day. The other extreme example is I happen to see one at 175 yards and we just both go our own way. I was looking for a possible, real-life example in between those two extremes, where not only training and equip maintenance are critical but also the EXACT equip and ammo that would all make the difference between life and death.

For a situation where I'm walking (no horseback, ATV's or dirtbikes) across an open meadow and I see a black bear. I have an unobstructed view and I'd say it's about 180-185 lbs and about 40 or so yards away. I instantly freeze and while keeping my eyes on the bear, I slowly take my slinged shotgun off my shoulder and very slowly raise it to a line of sight. I plant my feet and lean slightly forward and just wait. The bear is looking in my direction and now I see at least one cub! All of a sudden, this sow starts charging at me. I know I have about two seconds.

If you found yourself in this EXACT situation, what is the one shotgun (make/model) and specific ammo, that would be reasonable for you to have along, that would give you the best chance of surviving?

[Tinbucket]

Your idea of a 12 gauge auto, makes a lot of sense.
It might interfere with carrying a lot of gear, a bad thing, or fishing etc but overall perhaps the best solution.
As far as handguns. 10mm minimum but if all you have Liberty has a solid brass, nickel plated hollow core bullet, in 9mm at 2000fps in 5 inch barrel.
Advertised as penetrating level III armor, and then their round for the larger calibers. Or buffalo bore with it's earthquake rounds.
Marlin and Mossberg does or did make lever actions in .444 and .45-70.
I favor the .444 with solid bullets for penetration over the .45-70.
There are some offering lever action carbines chambered in .45 Colt aand 360 grain bear load will wreck your shoulder would b a good carry. Abotu the same as .454 Casull loading.
Of course the .44magnum with buffalo bore rounds, perhaps magna ported, and in a shoulder holster or as stout pair of suspenders if on the belt.
Then there's the S&W460 Ruger .480 and S&W .500. Just need a set of wheels to transport and you're all set.
The 12 gauge auto with sling probably the cheapest and makes the biggest hole and deep.
Best idea yet, buy one, of each and take you pick, that day, of the week.
What I want is a bullet to do the job in a .30-30 win 94. handiest rifle I have but a Bear or dinosaur gun.

[JohnKSa]

I'll be on elk hunts...

If you can't hunt with something that would also be of use against a bear attack, then maybe carrying a second long gun (e.g. 12ga shotgun) isn't an ideal approach.

Clearly a handgun would not be anyone's first choice against a bear attack--but it might be preferable to trying to juggle two long guns in a situation where time is likely to be critical.

For a situation where I'm walking...

I'm not sure it's useful to carefully lay out a single situation and then do all your preparation/equipment choice based on that hypothetical.

It would probably be better to look at a range of possibilities based on real-world attacks and then work out a plan from that basis.

[shootbrownelk]

JMR40. There have been 3 fatal grizzly bear attacks this year, around Yellowstone. There have been 3 near fatal maulings involving Grizzlies and hunters in areas that are 20-30 miles away from Yellowstone. Your numbers are off a bit. Grizzlies are quite a bit larger than Black bears here in Wyoming. An average Grizzly is 400 lbs.
I don't hunt in Teton park anymore, but when I did, I saw more than my share of Grizzly bears. I always used my model 70 in .375 H&H just in case, but I never needed it. The Grizzlies are expanding in numbers and territory. They need to be taken off the Endangered species list and hunted again, to re-instill their fear of man. JMO.

[rickmc]

Thanks for all the answers. They were definitely wide ranging:

jmr40: Thanks for reminding me of the recoil of 3" 3.5" shells working against me. I have shot a 10ga goose hunting...but not rapid fire!

Ern086: Thanks. Great idea of the volleyball thrower being used as a training tool. Genius actually.

SJCbklyn: Thanks for reminding me that shotgun barrels can also be ported. A feature that I'd always have on a big bore handgun. Also congrats on being the only person to actually say the brand name of the shotgun you'd like for this example (one of the main questions I asked). Is your Benelli an M2 or M4?

Buzzcook: Thanks for the bear spray data. I just need to do more research to see what brand might be best in cold temps. Probably been a lot of improvements in the last several years.

Johnksa: Why did I pose my specific question? Mainly to get everyone on the same page because I wanted to see which make/model of 12 ga semiauto shotgun people would risk their life on, if they had to. I could have just asked what specific semiauto tactical 12ga and ammo will reliably throw out the most slugs in 2 seconds? Or what 12 ga semiauto is the best for 3-gun competition? I just wanted to present a possible real-life scenario that I may have to face someday. Seems that when I said "bear" people became derailed and just pontificated way off the specific questions I asked. I still dont know if a Beretta 1301 or a Remington Versa Max or a Benelli M2 or Benelli M4 or a Mossberg 930 is the very best in a live or die situation? I'm a gun collector because it's infinitely better than collecting stamps! If I could ever get my hands on an AA-12, I wouldn't have asked my question...

[JohnKSa]

I could have just asked what specific semiauto tactical 12ga and ammo will reliably throw out the most slugs in 2 seconds?

That makes a lot more sense than implying that it would be reasonable to try to pick a bear defense gun based on a single, carefully defined, hypothetical/fictional situation.

[rickmc]

JohnSKa, Yes you may be right. I can also see then getting the followup questions of "why 2 seconds?" or "what are you trying to accomplish"? And then being right back where I started. Seems like too much nit-picking on certain words instead of answering specific questions. Just my own thoughts as a new member trying to tap into the experience of this forum. I may try to find a different site that specializes in tactical firearms. Thanks for your time.

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

Black bear have two un-distinguishable Charges. One is meant to bluff their opponent. The other is for mauling their quarry. Both are overwhelmingly difficult to be a party too and seldom determined by the innocent which Charge is taken place.
A sow with cub/s is perhaps the most likely and dangerous encounter for a human verses a boar with a bad temper. (which doesn't apply to a Polar Bear's behaviour..)
As far a preferred handgun to stop a charging bear. There isn't a caliber made to date that will garner immediate deadly results. A bear spray according to some will work if you allow the bear to get as close as possible before its spraying. (which requires a bear being a few feet away in a fully foil-aged woodland.) i.e. Good luck with that effort.

The quip: "Oop's Wrong place at the wrong time."_ probably thought by some poor Pilgrim about to endure a charging Bear._

[Wyosmith]

Shootbrownelk is correct. Grizzlies withing a 100 mile radius of the park are a real problem. The average adult grizzly is about 400-425, but keep in mind that is an average of adults, sows and boars. The big bores I see usually go a bit larger, maybe 550. However it's the sows that are usually the aggressive ones. Not always, but probably 3 times out of 4.

I will be up there in 3 days. I am going as the "extra guy" with 2 other friends of mine to help pack meat and carry an extra rifle. I will have my Mauser 375H&H and my 454 Casull. I have NEVER been into that area without seeing very fresh tracks and I'd bet I see the bears themselves about 75% of the trips I have been into that area. They are NOT rare and scarce.

I personally have never had a problem with a grizzly. I also have never had a fire get out of my wood stove and light up the hearth area of my home. I have never been in a bad car wreck.
I still keep a fire extinguisher handy, and I wear seat belts every time I get in a car.

I am on my 2nd barrel of my 375, and I have over 9,000 rounds through my 454. I shoot them both well.
But with bears, the ability to shoot is second in importance to your situational awareness. Bears can out run horses in 100-150 yards, so no gun is helpful if you let down your guard. You'll never get off a shot if you don't keep your mind on them.

I personally think the best "bear gun" available today is a 458 SOCOM. I don't have one myself, but I have made several of them. 400 grain bullet at 1500 FPS from an AR with the recoil of a trap load in a 12 gauge, and straight line recoil makes for very fast 2nd and 3rd shots. In short, it's a good warm "45-70 load" from a short, light, fast auto that doesn't kick hard enough to slow you down.

If you are hunting elk in an area that has grizzlies, hunt your elk with a bear rifle. You need not buy a special weapon for "defense against bears"

I am a firm believer in powerful handguns. Not to shoot an incoming bear (that's what the rifle or shotgun is for) as much as to use if the bear gets between you and the muzzle of your long arm.
When I was CEO of Cast Performance I had a thick file of reports from various people, agencies and doctors from all over the USA and a few other countries too. I was surprised at how many people had been mauled by bears and cats (and also some kinds of other animals) who had a good rifle with them at the time, but didn't get to use it. It was far more common than I would have guessed before I read the reports.

Many, in fact MOST of the maulings were against people who were armed, and many of them were armed with rifles and shotguns. But those that got mauled nearly always had one thing in common.

They let their guard down.

Bears and cats are FAST. REALLY FAST!

The one thing I love about a handgun is that you have it strapped to you, not just in your hands or over your shoulder.

If you "loose round 1" in the "prize fight for your life" you still may be able to fight "round 2" if you have a hand gun. In some cases maybe not....but at that point what would you have to loose if you tried?

If that happens you are going to the hospital but I have to believe it's better than going to the morgue.

[taylorce1]

Phil Shoemaker used a 9mm to stop a bear charge. I'm sure a lot of it had to do with the fact he's put down a few charging bears in his career, and was able to put rounds where they needed to be. If you can't shoot accurately in a tense situation of a bear charge, then it probably isn't going to matter what you carry.

[rickmc]

Right now, for 12 shotgun options, I'm considering three:

Baretta A400 Xtreme
Winchester Super X3
Remington Versa Max

Does anyone have any history with these three guns?

Why did I pick them? Because these guns can chamber 2 3/4 all the way up to 3 1/2 mag loads. This gives me LOTS of ammo options to experiment with.

I can have the barrels cut down to 18 1/2" if they don't come that way, as an option, from the factory AND I can get a second, longer barrel and use the same gun for duck or goose hunting.

Ammo I'm considering for bear:
Brenneke 3" Black Magic slugs (1.375oz 1,502 velocity 3,014 muzzle energy
Lightfield IDS Commander 3 1/2" 1 3/8oz 1,890 velocity 3,649 muzzle energy
Dixie IXL-DGS 3" slugs (need to check gun barrel diameters for compatibility)
Dixie Tri-Ball III 3 1/2" (three .60" balls)

Brenneke seems to be the old standard but Dixie is interesting with their hardened metal manufacturing process. They claim to penetrate better than Brenneke.

If I can figure out the hardness factor of a Grizzly's skull (worst case scenario) and what the equates to in steel plating, I can do penetration tests with these different ammo at 50 yards, 40 yards, 30 yards, 20 yards and 10 yards. Again, this is worst case. Breaking down a shoulder bone would be an easier penetration task.

Target acquisition in rapid fire will be interesting too. If I can't eventually get off 5-6 good shots in 2 seconds, I can drop down to 2 3/4 ammo. Having the barrels ported should help somewhat. For kick, I've seen some stocks that have a built-in shock absorber...or just a good padded vest, designed for recoil comfort...and just practice.