Why Glaser/Magsafe rounds present problems for self-defense use (Graphic Content)

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Lately, I keep seeing people recommend Glaser/Magsafe rounds for self-defense use. Usually these people will cite "overpenetration" as the reasoning behind their recommendation. While overpenetration can be a concern, generally anything that can penetrate deeply enough to stop an attacker will have no problems sailing through a few sheets of drywall. In addition, Glaser-type rounds may not minimize penetration as much as you think.

First, let's consider the basic issue. An average human male is around 8-9" from front to back and 19" from shoulder to shoulder. There are only two ways to physiologically stop a human being - blood loss or destruction of the central nervous system. Complete and total destruction of the human heart can leave a person with enough blood to continue moving and functioning for as long as 15 seconds. That can be a really long time if people are shooting at you.

Here is a cross-section of a human male torso showing the location of the vital, blood-bearing organs and central nervous system in relation to the rest of the body:



As you can see, even with an unobstructed frontal shot (the shortest possible distance), there can be as much as 3-4" of tissue and bone that must be penetrated in order to be effective. If the angle of the shot changes or something obstructs the front (say those arms - which can equal 4" of ballistic gelatin due to the elasticity of the skin), you get a shallow ineffective wound that looks ugly but does not halt your attacker.

To put this into perspective, Glaser Blue uses compressed #12 shot. Glaser Silver uses compressed #6 shot. From a 12ga. shotgun, #6 shot has a maximum depth potential in ballistics gel (no bones, clothing, etc.) of 5", though most of the shot will stop by 4".

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

So if #6 shot out of a 12ga is unlikely to penetrate deep enough, what is going to happen when we fire it out of a pistol caliber? Let's take a look (You can find out more about this case from the original source: http://www.firearmsid.com/Feature%20...TraumaUnit.htm) :



Looks like a nasty wound right? But you notice that the victim is still moving under their own power without assistance? Here is the reason why:



Notice how most of the shot is inside the arm and the very small amount that exited the arm is just under the skin of the torso? That wound may be pretty unpleasant to look at; but it will not cause a physiological stop.

OK, so Glaser has some serious limitations when it comes to penetration. Maybe that is a tradeoff you feel willing to make considering magazine capacities and your desire to limit penetration. However, what happens when Glaser does encounter an internal wall?

In the test linked above, it penetrated almost 12" of ballistic gel after penetrating the wall. Apparently the nose cap crushed in slightly on the wall and none of the shot released, making the performance suprisingly good on the ballistic gel on the other side of the wall.

Now I am not saying all Glaser and Magsafe rounds will behave this same way. I am also not saying that Glaser and Magsafe rounds have no place for defensive ammo. I am saying that I think a lot of people have misconceptions about how effective these rounds are and are unaware of some of these potential issues.

[goodspeed(TPF)]

*gonna leave this one alone......
munches popcorn...... takes sip of soda.......

[buzz_knox]

Lately, I keep seeing people recommend Glaser/Magsafe rounds for self-defense use.

Most people who recommend frangibles do so based on marketing spin. Those whose job descriptions include the possibility of shooting people gave up on such rounds long ago.

[madmag]

You can give this a read.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot23_4.htm

[Gunfighter123]

INFO FROM USACARRY.COM;


He broke the performances down into three catagories:

1) Average = the glaser performed as well as any conventional bullet would;
2) Failure = a conventional bullet would have provided superior results; and,
3) Success = the glaser accomplished what would not have been possible for a
conventional bullet.

Average Results:

1) Texas, office setting, range 5-6 yards. 9mm Glaser flatpoint. Impacted upper
right torso near nipple at a slight quartering angle, perforating and
shredding the pectoral muscle and shattering two ribs. The Glaser had
disintegrated by this point. Shot pellets and bone fragments continued
penetrating creating a 5 inch dia. wound in lung. The clinically lethal
wounds were inflicted by the balance of the rounds fired. Some of these
were Rem 115 JHP which failed to expand at this off-the-muzzle range and
perforated the victim.

2) San Diego, CA. .38 SPL +P Glaser. The bullet impacted the upper torso on
a nearly frontal shot; this is supposed to be the best possible condition
for a Glaser to work. The bullet penetrated between the ribs on the right
side saturating the top of the liver. The victim collapsed after 10 seconds
from a profusely bleeding wound.

3) Indianapolis, 9mm flatnose Glaser. The shot was pulled low and impacted the
knee cap destroying both the knee cap and the distal femur and proximal
tibia. The individual dropped to the ground but was still able to discharge
his shotgun. He was taken out by torso hits from a standard .38 SPL. Any
load with an expanding bullet or a non-expanding bullet would have had the
same results on the knee joint. The big claim to fame for the Glaser in this
case was a non-perforating wound.

Failures:

4) San Diego, .45 ACP flatnose Glaser. The victim was first shot in the liver
by a .22 LR and fled the house. Her attacker followed after rearming with
the .45 Auto and fired the first Glaser at a distance of 2 feet. The angle
of impact was "directly accross the chest", I don't know what direction
this refers to exactly. Penetration was 4 inches from the right side.
Sanow claims that whatever direction he was refering to above, the bullet
path was "totally insignificant in terms of stopping power". Go figure.
Anyway, she stopped running after being hit and then started again. The
second Glaser also entered the right side from about 45 degrees from the
front on a line that would have gone between the lungs and ended at the
left shoulder blade. This shot was a little lower than the first which I
think means the first must have impacted somewhere around the armpit. Again
this second shot never entered the body cavity but rather curved around the
rib cage and came to rest in a fat layer. The victim slowed down and
collapsed, Sanow says because of blood loss due to the .22LR in the liver.
She was excuted by a third Glaser behind the ear.

5) Texas, .38 SPL +P. The bullet impacted the upper arm either hitting a heavy
bicep or the bicep and humerous. It disintegrated in the arm causing massive
soft tissue damage but no pellets entered the thorax.

6) .38 SPL fired from a 2 inch Colt. The woman is on the floor firing up at a
steep angle. Distance less than 4 feet. The Glaser impacted just above the
right hip on a line passing through the liver and the heart. Penetration
was 3 inches and the pellets never even made it to the liver. The robber
ran 22 blocks and checked himself into the hospital there.

7) .38 SPL +P Glaser from a 4 inch revolver at a distance of 8-9 feet. The
bullet impacted the sternum at an angle of 30-45 degrees but first hit
a large heavy zipper. The bullet disintgrated carrying part of the zipper
below the skin. All of the metal stayed between the skin and the rib cage.
The result was a very bloody surface wound and the stopping power was "from
victim compliance and nothing else". Remember this phrase bacause we will
need it again for one of the "successes".

Successes:

8) Two police officers firing .357 Mag flatnose and 9mm flatnose Glasers. The
distance was short as it took place in a basement. The .357 bounced off of
the top of the forehead having no effect. The 9mm struck the lower abdomen
off-center well to one side resulting in a large amount of abdominal damage
and the ultimate loss of a significant amount of intestines. The felon
dropped instantly.

9) El Salvador, paramilitary instructor firing a 9mm Glaser at an ambusher.
Impacted from a quartering angle about mid-torso producing a large
shallow entrance wound just under the diaphram and saturated the spleen.
The soldier rolled head over heels in mid-stride and was found dead a few
moments later.

10)Kentucky, 9mm Glaser and a 9mm Silvertip of unknown generation. The Silver-
tip was first and the nose collapsed inwards. The Glaser struck the groin
area, eviscerating the felon dropping him. Pelletes were found in the chest
cavity and down in the thighs.

11)Florida, 9mm Glaser, distance 4 feet. A knife wielder was hit in the right
shoulder under the collar bone dropping the knife. He took two steps,
doubled over, going down to one knee; picked up the knife and then walked
61 yards to his residence. He was relatively mobile and dangerous for 3
minutes after being shot. The entrance hole was nickel sized, the bullet
disintgrating after 2 inches shattering the clavical and ruptureing the
sub-clavical artery. If stopping power "from victim compliance and no other
reason" is the criterion of a failure, this sure sounds like one to me.

12)Texas, .357 Mag. The victim was struck from behind and a slight angle with
the bullet path on a line from the spine to the heart. The slug missed the
spinal column and disintegrated instantly. Very few pellets reached the
heart but they saturated the pulmonary arteries and veins. The felon dropped
immediately but not due these wounds. A chip of one vertebral body was blown
off and into the spinal cord. The bullet did not appear to impact the spinal
column and the fragment was attributed to the "large and early stretch
cavity, a stretch cavity typical of Glasers".

13).38 SPL +P Glaser from a snubby. Range was under 10 feet. This was the
"classic scenario for the Glaser". The slug struck the lower part of the
sternum from a fully frontal shot, saturating the heart and perforating
the aorta.

14)Chicago, .44 SPL flatnose Glasers, 3 inch barrel. Five rounds fired, only
two impacted. One struck an extremity, the other struck the upper torso
in the area of the left nipple at a slight angle from the front shredding
the left lung and the left side of the heart. "As is typical of the Glaser
no part of the projectile overpenetrated to endanger others"; that job was
left to the three rounds that missed their intended target totally.

There you have it. By my count only 6 successes, 5 failures and 3 average
performances. If your assailants are so co-operative that they are willing
to present the "classic scenario for the Glaser" why not just have them lie
down spreadeagled and then you could just put one in the back of their skulls
if you really felt the need to shoot.

Seriously, while the data above are limited in number the picture they present
is not very promising especially for a super slug. Wharever you may think of
Evan Marshall's work, by his criteria some of Sanow's "successes" are really
"failures". Furthermore, the "classic scenario for the Glaser" just happens to
be the classic scenario for any round and if a .357 Mag 125 JHP is going to
work you would certainly expect it to work with the absolutely perfect shot
placements of "successes" #13 & 14. Some of these so-called successes would
have been successful with most any high perf. conventional defense round and
I would classify them as just average performance. If you make the adjustment
to the classifications that common sense dictates you wind up with a cartridge
that does not perform any better that our better self-defense rounds and that
can produce some abominal failures that would not occur with a bullet of
conventional hollow-point construction.

For the record, if you have read the Marshall/Sanow "Definitive Study" book
you will recognize these 14 cases. In spite of "Handgun Stopping Power"
having been published several years after the combat Handgun article refer-
enced above, they did not list any additional field reports for the Glasers.
The reasons for this were not stated in the book, so I guess the above reports
can be considered as representative of Glaser performance as any more recent
shootings would.

I hope this will help of some of you newcomers to the group to deal with
the Glaser myths.

All this information was taking from Glaser Safety Slugs (Geoff Kotzar)

[Bartholomew Roberts]

For the record, if you have read the Marshall/Sanow "Definitive Study" book you will recognize these 14 cases. In spite of "Handgun Stopping Power"
having been published several years after the combat Handgun article refer-
enced above, they did not list any additional field reports for the Glasers.

I'd also add that the book those were taken from was published almost 20 years ago now. While JHPs have made tremendous improvements over that time, not much has changed with the Glaser/Magsafe rounds.

TFL's own archives are also useful. Here is a post from 2001 where I defend the use of Glasers as general defensive ammo. The discussion ends when my search to provide actual results shows 3 failures to stop and one qualified stop.

[Bitmap]

generally anything that can penetrate deeply enough to stop an attacker will have no problems sailing through a few sheets of drywall.

Jeff Cooper wrote many years ago "Anything that will almost never overpenetrate will sometimes not penetrate enough and anything that will usually penetrate enough will sometime penetrate too much." That shouldn't be an exact quote because I don't feel like looking it up right now, but your statement is very similar.

Everything is a compromise. The problem is to pick the tool that will give the best compromise over the widest range of situations that the user will likely be in. Not easy to do, but I would pick more penetration most of the time.

I personally think all handguns are WAY over rated for "stopping power" and many people that are "stopped" by being shot with a handgun actually stop because they realize that if they don't stop they will probably be shot again.

I spent an afternoon reading a bunch of Medal of Honor citations. I was amazed at the damage the human body can endure while continuing to function. Arms and legs blown completely off. One medic was helping an injured man and the medic threw himself on a hand grenade which exploded. He got up and went back to work on the injured man until he collapsed. How is that for lack of "stopping power"? I believe that motivation makes a huge difference. The man who believes his family is in danger will likely be much harder to stop than the man who just wants to steal your money.

I've also seen too many deer that were roughly the size of adult humans (all but one were under 200lbs on the hoof) that were shot through the chest (from ranges as close as 7 yards) with rounds like .308, .30-06, and .30-30 that were able to cover 100+ yards to believe that the kind of handgun rounds usually carried for defense will stop a human 95% of the time with one round through the body. I know that is an apples to oranges comparison so take it for what it's worth.

Now that my hijack is over, I'll say again that I'd go with more penetration.

[Lashlarue]

I've shot five different calibers of Glaser Blue. 9mm.357mag ,44 mag, 45acp and 7.62x39. They are flat nasty compared to their standard counterparts.They will not pierce a sheetrock wall , in real life sheetrock walls have two sides of sheetrock and most times insulation in between.I've seen one human victim of 9mm blue, you could reach into stomache area and and pull out his intestines.5" penetration,5" wide and 5" tall. Suggest you talk to Floyd Coons at Master Shooters Supply in Las Vegas about what a 7.62x39 will do to a 15 gallon plastic pickle bucket filled with water.The aftermath would make an excellent jigsaw puzzle.I dont know about the others , never shot them but my SD rounds are Glasers

[vox rationis]

I don't know any serious self defense authority that recommends frangible rounds such as the Glaser due to their pathetic penetration ability. I agree that most people that are relatively uninformed fall for the marketing hype of such rounds.

[NWPilgrim]

Sounds like Glasers are effective if you shoot the person in the abdomen (soft tissue no bone), but marginal if you shoot in the chest or shoulder.

I prefer to ensure enough penetration first, then fine tune for possible expansion, or misses, as a secondary concern.

[CaptainCZ]

I cant see the appeal of the "safety" ammo. Frangible ammo is best suited for close range steel target shooting indoors.
If you look at the ballistic gel tests on Glaser/Magsafe/Frangible ammo you will notice that there is a devastating expansion and stoppage within the first 4-8" of the wound track, and that is on bare gelatin if you throw heavy clothing like 2 layers of 4oz denim or one layer of leather and a cotton t shirt into the equation, the round will penetrate further 8-12" however does not expand. making the self defense slugs perform worse than a regular FMJ round. At least FMJ's through clothing tumble or flatten a little.

Also the tests done by Brassfetcher.com using FBI interior wall parameters show that the glaser safety slug 9mm goes through two 1/2" sheets of drywall with a gap of 3.5" between the two ( you can see the actual test yourself you will need adobe reader http://www.brassfetcher.com/glasertest1.html)the tests show the glaser "safety" slug going through 2 1/2" pieces of drywall and penetrating 11.7" into a 10% gel block, the round only somewhat fragments, however it will bring large amounts of gypsum/sheetrock dust into the woundtrack with it. So hardly safe for misses where someone is on the other side of the wall

Basically, Best case scenario hitting only soft tissue through light clothing the round will exhibit rapid expansion up to 8", So a gut shot will shred the liver pancreas and intestines and cause rapid blood loss and extreme pain but not an instant incapacitation.
The same shot through thick clothing wont expand and wont destroy anything it doesnt directly hit. Keep in mind lots of your tissue is very elastic, and without expansion therefore sharp edges to cut and tear, the round will push most of what it hits out of the way with little damage. the liver pancreas and kidneys will be damaged if hit but wont cause rapid incapacitation/death.
Then we move onto bone, Even with the compressed pellet frangible ammo, you cant count on the pellets squeaking through the gaps in the ribs to hit vital organs. If your using the sintered copper frangible rounds only shots into soft tissue with no cover like a heavy jacket will produce adequate results. Even then they only work under the best of conditions

Its impossible to prepare for every situation we might find ourselves in. It seems to me that Glaser/Magsafe/Frangible ammo requires perfect circumstances to be effective, Round placement is so important regardless of ammo, I practice a triple tap two to the chest and one to the head. If I used the type of rounds we are talking about, the only shots that would be effective, would be the one to the head. Even then I have doubts a high shot to the forehead would produce a kill shot, I have no doubts it would be a fight stopper, but Im not banking my life on that one shot available to me.
As for duty ammo car doors windshields ect are problems for FMJ ammo so there is no way a frangible round is suitable for any law enforcement. What if you run into a nut with kevlar on? At least you can count on FMJ or HP rounds to break ribs or hurt like hell, I have no idea how frangible ammo will affect a vest.
Also from all the ballistic gel test results Ive seen, Including those with the simulated bone sheets, FMJ and JHP rounds almost never penetrate all the way through the 16" blocks most stop in bare gel around 12-16" and with the simulated bone sheets the avg is more like 8-10", So the risk of overpenetration, As in, through the target through a wall and into someone else is basically nonexistent with a pistol, A rifle round is another story, but as the tests with Glasers have shown a miss with any round is a threat
The FBI has a requirement for pistol ammo to penetrate 10% ballistics gel to 12" so any way you slice it Frangible/Glaser/Magsafe isnt up to snuff, and poses more of a threat from underpenetration and lack of stopping power. More than the threat of overpenetration of "traditional" Self defense rounds, and even standard FMJ ammo

[KyJim]

CaptainCZ --

That is an outstanding first post! Welcome to TFL. I couldn't agree more with what you and the OP are saying.

[loose_holster_dan]

i bought some of these in 9mm awhile back with the thought of using them in my carry piece at church. my logic was that i would hopefully not injure any innocents that happened to be standing behind the bad guy in the crowded church. after trying some out on ears of corn and a squirrel, i thought i had found the ultimate self defense round. the corn literally exploded, sending kernels everywhere (i recommend this for a good time). the same thing happened to the squirrel when i hit him center mass. his insides literally exploded, sending bits of him towards me about 10yds away.

then i read a thread similar to this one. an ear of corn or a squirrel is 4" in diameter tops. this means that the glaser is acting on a squirrel like a hollow point should on a target of human proportions. i would rather trust my life to hollow points.

[Willie Sutton]

What do you suppose pilots carry in their cockpit defense pistols?

Willie

.

[JimPage]

There's a great fiction circulating that a single hole will cause an aicraft to fragment like a burst balloon because it is pressurized. That's just flatly wrong! But it seems that some fictions have lives of their own. Government is particularly guilty of such sillines.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

What do you suppose pilots carry in their cockpit defense pistols... by federal mandate?

I wasn't able to find that info; but the Federal Air Marshals carry .357 SIG GoldDot JHP and Armed Security Officers are authorized to use one of the following:

Authorized Ammunition:
1.9mm 124 grain, jacketed hollow point (JHP)
2..357 Sig 125 grain JHP
3..40 caliber 180 grain JHP
4..45 caliber 185 grain JHP

Glasers were apparently used by the Air Marshalls prior to 9/11 but apparently have not been used for some time.

[Willie Sutton]

I was actually just curious... I had not heard what was being issued post 911. The rumor for years was that Glasers were the air marshalls choice, the info on the pilots guns and ammunition is fairly closely held, or so it seems.

And you are right, you can put a basketball sized hole thru an airliner and it'll make no difference to the structure.

I'm an aerospace professional, BTW, and aircraft structures are in my professonal area of expertise. I've seen an entire yard of soon to be scrapped airliners at Mojave that have been used by the HRT and others as test article structures, both pressurized and non-pressurized, for entry for hostage rescue as well as for simply structural damage tests. Pretty amazing stuff... trust me on the following, they are not planning to open the door to get folks out.

AFAIK, TSA armed security officers are not tasked with the job of providing any sort of enroute security functions.


Willie

.

[Glockstar .40]

I dont know about yall but if someone breaks into my house i dont plan on stopping with just 1 round fired of any SD ammo frangible or not. sure 1 round of glaser may or may not stop someone, but how about 2 or 3 rounds of glaser?

thats why i have my 1st 3 rounds in my mag glasers followed by Hornady CD. sure you may or may not want glasers for HD but what if your in a building and a thug is attacking someone with a knife and your 25 feet away? if i miss with my first shot its comforting to know its not going into the next room or outside. imho

[Hansam]

I've never been a fan of those types of ammo.

My home defense and self defense load in my pistols are Federal Hydra Shok 230gr JHP.

My wife loads Hydra Shok .380 JHP for her LCP.

Honestly though I reach for my Mossy 500 loaded with 2 3/4" #4 shot.

In the house my wife reaches for my AR-15 with the 16" upper loaded with HP .223rem.

No frangibles in the home for my family.

[orionengnr]

And you are right, you can put a basketball sized hole thru an airliner and it'll make no difference to the structure.

Nothing short of a 105mm Howitzer will put anything close to a "basketball sized hole" in a commercial airline fuselage.

What do you suppose pilots carry in their cockpit defense pistols?
Willie

Gold Dots or HSTs. And I'm not "supposing".

Twenty plus years ago, I was impressed by Glaser/Magsafe type rounds, mostly due to reading hyped-up magazine articles.

After a bit more research, there is no way I would use those rounds for anything but a paperweight.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Originally Posted by Glockstar .40

sure you may or may not want glasers for HD but what if your in a building and a thug is attacking someone with a knife and your 25 feet away? if i miss with my first shot its comforting to know its not going into the next room or outside. imho

The best way to limit overpenetration is to not miss. To that extent, it seems like stopping the fight with the fewest rounds fired is the safest solution for everyone.

Also, give the Brassfetcher link a read. As I noted in the original post, Glaser actually penetrated an interior wall just fine and then penetrated almost the FBI minimum of ballistics gel on the other side - so the chance it will go into the next room is probably higher than you think.

I certainly wouldn't advocate (and I bet the manufacturer of Glaser would not either) taking any shots with Glaser that you would not take with a JHP.

Also, in the original post, I used figures for the average human male. As someone recently pointed out to me, the average American male tends to be a bit bigger than the global average, with an average depth of around 10" and a width of 20" or so.

[TacticalDefense1911]

When the goal should be to (a) have a bullet that penetrates adequately to reach the body's vital organ systems and (b) expands to create as large of permanent cavity damage as possible while still allowing proper penetration, I see everything else as a liability. If you want to shoot BB's at a threat then do it with a shotgun, not a Glaser safety slug out of a handgun.

[Glockstar .40]

@Bart in a perfect world yes never missing a shot from 25 feet with your adrenalin pumping and your hands shaking knowing that to save someones life your about to take someone elses? sounds pretty easy to me! i'm sorry i dont mean to sound like a jerk cuz im not tryin to be. but alot of civilians think that just because you shoot at a paper target perfectly hitting with every shot dead center that they are gonna be able to do that in a real life situation. im sorry but under those circumstances its easier said then done.

if any of us ever get in that situation i pray that it would be a 1 shot stoppage. but ill take my chance doing every thing possible to protect peoples lives in the backround even if that means putting 3 rounds of glaser in my mag hopefully by my 4th shot where the critical defense is at ill be on target

[briandg]

Where I live, it's not uncommon to see men that would require a full 8-10 inches of penetration just to get past the last 30 years of beer and burgers. I wasn't always an advocate of deep penetration, but at some point in the past, I realized that

FAT DOESN'T BLEED.

Thanks for the photo. I've wondered all of my life whether people are red or white meat. Not suprisingly at all, it looks more like pork.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Originally Posted by Glockstar .40

@Bart in a perfect world yes never missing a shot from 25 feet with your adrenalin pumping and your hands shaking knowing that to save someones life your about

I'm a bit confused here. On the one hand, you appear to realize it may be difficult to make good hits. On the other hand, your strategy appears to be planned around making multiple hits with less effective ammo in a dynamic life-threatening situation. I'm not trying to tell you what is best for your situation because I don't know; but that sounds like a contradiction you should give some thought to.

but ill take my chance doing every thing possible to protect peoples lives in the backround even if that means putting 3 rounds of glaser in my mag

Assuming you are correct that Glaser reduces the threat to people in the background (and I don't know that I agree with that), then you'll do everything possible for the first 3 rounds and then tough luck for the people in the background? Again, I wouldn't use Glaser at all, so I am not being critical of your choice. I'm just pointing out the contradiction in reasoning again.