Remind me why *** Someone*** would want an unfinished 80% Glock knock off... - Page 3

shurshot · November 8, 2020, 01:59 AM

TunnelRat, you are entitled to your opinion. I disagree, these kits ARE an emerging issue.
Not Vice News, but another media source interviewed the ATF in California...

"Forty-one percent, so almost half our cases we're coming across are these 'ghost guns'," said Carlos A. Canino, the Special Agent in charge of the ATF Los Angeles Field Division. "What's changed is technology. The technology makes it easy for someone to make one of these, even to mass produce these."
https://abc7.com/ghost-guns-californ...-kits/5893043/

Although this is Giffords, its probably no more slanted than Vice... https://giffords.org/blog/2020/05/gh...riminals-blog/

"I'm equally mystified as to how you can claim that it IS an issue. As someone else already commented, you haven't provided any statistics to support your contention that it is an issue."(AB)
???

**Aguila Blanca** · November 8, 2020, 02:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shurshot

TunnelRat... not Vice News, but another media source...

"Forty-one percent, so almost half our cases we're coming across are these 'ghost guns'," said Carlos A. Canino, the Special Agent in charge of the ATF Los Angeles Field Division. "What's changed is technology. The technology makes it easy for someone to make one of these, even to mass produce these."
https://abc7.com/ghost-guns-californ...-kits/5893043/

First, the article only talks about southern California -- one office of the BATFE. Second, he's not necessarily talking about guns used in crimes, but about guns recovered from people who have been arrested.

shurshot · November 8, 2020, 02:22 AM

"First, the article only talks about southern California -- one office of the BATFE. Second, he's not necessarily talking about guns used in crimes, but about guns recovered from people who have been arrested."(AB)

Exactly!!!! Guns that have been recovered from people who have been arrested... CRIMINALS. Criminals carrying ghost guns!!! Isn't that in itself a crime AB? YES, Thank you!! They didn't buy them through a licensed dealer or go through a background check and were arrested for other crimes!! Thanks for making my point.

Here is an NBC article depicting ghost guns used by a criminal to kill a police officer. I'm sure some of you may remember this since you state you follow this ghost gun topic; https://www.nbcnews.com/news/crime-c...t-gun-n1042811

"Today more than 40% of crime guns recovered by ATF agents in California are ghost guns."(Giffords/ATF).

AB and TunnelRat, do you STILL think these are not being misused because there are not widespread "statistics" ??? So are we to ignore California ATF statistics? What is acceptable? Stats from 3 states, 10... how many?How many people must die (like the aforementioned Police Officer), in order to compile statistics that are acceptable to you??

As I previously stated, would it be that inconvenient to go through an FFL dealer and background check in order to buy one of these 80% kits? If it helps keep these scumbags from getting guns, wouldn't it be worth it?

**Aguila Blanca** · November 8, 2020, 03:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shurshot

AB and TunnelRat, do you STILL think these are not being misused because there are not widespread "statistics" ??? What is acceptable? Stats from 3 states, 10... how many?How many more people must die in order to compile statistics that are acceptable??

A prohibited person possessing a firearm is a crime, of course -- but it's essentially a paper or victimless crime. I'm not in the least impressed by statistics of how many prohibited persons have been found in possession of ghost guns (and I'm especially not impressed when the 40% statistic cited comes from the Giffords Gun Grab Group). I would be much more interested in statistics showing -- nationwide -- how often ghost guns are actually used in crimes that have victims -- shootings, murders, and armed robberies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shurshot

AB and TunnelRat, do you STILL think these are not being misused because there are not widespread "statistics" ??? What is acceptable? Stats from 3 states, 10... how many?How many more people must die in order to compile statistics that are acceptable??

How many states? There are 50 states in the United States, so how about 50 states?

How many "more" people must die? How many people have died -- in crimes involving ghost guns. So far you have come up with two. That's hardly evidence of an overwhelming problem that can only be solved by imposing yet another restriction or lawful citizens engaging in a (so far) lawful activity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shurshot

As I previously stated, would it be that inconvenient to go through an FFL dealer and background check in order to buy one of these 80% kits? If it helps keep these scumbags from getting guns, wouldn't it be worth it?

Yes, to me it would be that inconvenient (aside from adding 50 bucks to the cost, to pay for the transfer fee). Would it be worth it? My answer is "No." Not until I am convinced it's a real problem, and I'm a long way from seeing that so far.

shurshot · November 8, 2020, 03:19 AM

"A prohibited person possessing a firearm is a crime, of course -- but it's essentially a paper or victimless crime."(AB)

True... until there is a victim. Prohibited persons carrying guns???... HMmmm... yep, probably well intentioned individuals on their way to volunteer at the local community outreach center or to do charity work at the local orphanage.

**Aguila Blanca** · November 8, 2020, 03:26 AM

Ah ... I notice that you edited your post either while I was writing, or after I posted my response. Your edited post included this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by shurshot

AB and TunnelRat, do you STILL think these are not being misused because there are not widespread "statistics" ??? So are we to ignore California ATF statistics? What is acceptable? Stats from 3 states, 10... how many?How many people must die (like the aforementioned Police Officer), in order to compile statistics that are acceptable to you??

Yes, we are to ignore California statistics -- unless they happen to be within a couple of percentage points of national statistics. Otherwise, what you are calling for is allowing one state to dictate what applies to the entire country. And that's exactly what our form of federal government was set up to avoid.

And that 40% number from Giffords? It's not really 40% of California crime guns. If you click the link within the link, it goes back to the same guy in the Los Angeles office of the BATFE, citing numbers for his area of operations.

I don't want my life to be controlled by what happens in Los Angeles, and what Californians think is best for me. Unrelated to firearms, I have professional experience of the way California's "solutions" to problems don't work.

shurshot · November 8, 2020, 03:35 AM

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.was...outputType=amp

3 more... not in California.

Bill DeShivs · November 8, 2020, 03:41 AM

Shurshot- Why do you care that other people make "ghost guns/" They are entirely legal to make.
"Ghost guns" are just the latest thing the gun grabbers are after. "Saturday night specials," "assault rifles," "bump stocks," "high capacity magazines," etc. Face it- these people don't like ANY guns.

shurshot · November 8, 2020, 03:44 AM

Did you read all the previous posts Bill?

**Aguila Blanca** · November 8, 2020, 04:57 AM

Shurshot, have you read the Second Amendment? Where does the Second Amendment say anything about serial numbers?

Ten or fifteen years ago it was posited that there were more than 20,000 (that's twenty THOUSAND) gun laws in the United States. 20,000 gun laws haven't prevented bad people from doing bad things, so what makes you think that one more law will change that? And how many more anti-gun laws have been added to that 20,000 in the last decade or so?

Requiring people to buy 80% receivers through FFLs won't make any difference at all. The good guys will have one more impediment to enjoying lawful firearms ownership, and the bad guys will continue to get their guns on street corners late at night.

Here's a source of [more or less] unvarnished statistics -- the FBI:
https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/pr...ime-statistics

In 2019, there were an estimated 1,203,808 violent crimes in the United States. How many were committed with ghost guns?

There were 13,927 murders in the United States in 2019. How many were committed with ghost guns?

With that, I doubt anything I have to say is going to change your mind, and I know that nothing you have to say is going to change my opposition to anti-"ghost gun" laws, so I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

shurshot · November 8, 2020, 06:15 AM

AB, you are preaching to the choir, trust me. I'm slightly to the right of Attila The Hun, politically speaking. More gun laws are pointless, I agree. NRA Lifemember here. We are on the same side, trust me. Part of your last post, although far more definitive, refined and updated, is almost identical to a presentation I gave in a High School Civics class in the early 80's, much to the ire of the liberal teacher. Now that I have responded to your implication that I haven't read the Constitution or understand the 2nd Amendment and how more gun laws won't work, can we get back on topic?

When it comes to these 80% kit "Ghost Guns", having them numbered and sold through dealers / FFL background checks completed, in my opinion, makes the guns and process 100% legitimate and closes one more opportunity for scumbags to get guns. Will it stop them from obtaining them from other sources... of course not. But like it or not, criminals and those of bad intentions ARE currently buying / obtaining, carrying and using these guns for nefarious purposes, as the aforementioned links and ATF sources depict.

As I previously stated, ANYONE can buy a 80% ghost gun kit online, unfettered, as easily as buying a pair of socks on Amazon. If that's not an issue for some of you, yes, I guess we have to agree to disagree.

"The good guys will have one more impediment to enjoying lawful firearms ownership,"AB.

Seriously? That's BS and you know it.

Going through a background check to buy a 80% kit is "One more impediment"??? Like we don't already do this 15 minute procedure to buy a gun through an FFL.

Metric · November 8, 2020, 08:33 AM

The stats exist. The reason we don't know the stats at the moment is that the media would be utterly ashamed/embarrassed to report them to you. You would immediately come to the conclusion that "ghost guns" are not a problem, and that certain people just love controlling you.

The tip-off is that they have been used by criminals "in 38 states." That means 12 states where the number of criminal uses is zero. So we can reasonably estimate that that in the majority of states, the number is one criminal use or less.

If I am generally not afraid of the existence of handguns, and their inevitable use by criminals, I am definitely not going to be afraid of "ghost guns." I am much more afraid of a federal government that feels the need to track and "regulate" every aspect of my life.

TunnelRat · November 8, 2020, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shurshot

AB, you are preaching to the choir, trust me. I'm slightly to the right of Attila The Hun, politically speaking. More gun laws are pointless, I agree. NRA Lifemember here. We are on the same side, trust me. Part of your last post, although far more definitive, refined and updated, is almost identical to a presentation I gave in a High School Civics class in the early 80's, much to the ire of the liberal teacher. Now that I have responded to your implication that I haven't read the Constitution or understand the 2nd Amendment and how more gun laws won't work, can we get back on topic?

When it comes to these 80% kit "Ghost Guns", having them numbered and sold through dealers / FFL background checks completed, in my opinion, makes the guns and process 100% legitimate and closes one more opportunity for scumbags to get guns. Will it stop them from obtaining them from other sources... of course not. But like it or not, criminals and those of bad intentions ARE currently buying / obtaining, carrying and using these guns for nefarious purposes, as the aforementioned links and ATF sources depict.

To the first point, a number of your comments as I pointed out earlier are practically word for word from gun control arguments in general. Being an NRA Life Member isn’t, in my experience, really an indication of anything. I’ve met many people that consider themselves pro-gun but then go on to list exceptions that I personally find head scratching. And frankly that’s fine. It’s been my experience that the views of gun owners vary wildly when it comes to what should or shouldn’t be allowed. My point is simply when you express views that some people might read as seemingly pro gun control don’t be surprised when they react as such, regardless of your membership in any political party or gun rights organization.

To the second point, what you’re describing is exactly what selling a serialized firearm entails. But that’s not what an 80% lower is. According to the ATF themselves it is not a firearm. Again going back to points I made above, people can and have 3D printed polymer lowers. Heck people can machine a steel lower or even make it themselves from a forging. So if we start serializing anything that could be made into a firearm receiver, where do we go from there? If chunks of polymer and steel should be serialized and require background checks, then certainly the barrel and slide you might buy online should be serialized, and likely the trigger components as well as those parts are much more complicated than a receiver and thus harder for someone with nefarious intent to create at home. Should anything firearm related be serialized and require a background check through an FFL? To me when I follow through what you’re suggesting it’s hard not to consider it a pretty big expansion of current gun control measures, which I think goes to my first point.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

wild cat mccane · November 8, 2020, 09:54 AM

When talking about CA as if 3 in 10 Americans isn’t from CA....

Metric · November 8, 2020, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shurshot

As I previously stated, ANYONE can buy a 80% ghost gun kit online, unfettered, as easily as buying a pair of socks on Amazon. If that's not an issue for some of you, yes, I guess we have to agree to disagree.

I can buy any number of things on Amazon, and assemble them as a "kit" to make something extremely deadly. As easily as ordering socks.

You appear to have a basic problem with reality -- that people can assemble objects in the world and end up with something that isn't safe. You'd like a world where that is impossible?

Quote:

having them numbered and sold through dealers / FFL background checks completed, in my opinion, makes the guns and process 100% legitimate

In other words, nothing in your life is legitimate unless some guy from the government creates a process of sufficiently elaborate hoops for you to jump through.

No, thank you.

shurshot · November 8, 2020, 10:39 AM

Rat, yes, my personal perspective is slanted against scumbags easily obtaining guns and commiting crimes, killing cops and innocent victims. Over time, it's hard not to see the bigger picture and question where our society is headed. Our individual occupations and experiences are all different too. I have seen what people intent on obtaining guns and committing evil acts have done.
You Inferring that I am a gun control advocate in disguise as a NRA member is condescending at best. We are in a virtual culture war in this country and you are attacking your own team mate due to me having a different take on how easily available this 80% kits are? As our new President says; "C'mon Man"!

.
I just had 300 rounds of 10mm delivered last night... I'm no Michael Moore.

You have your opinion and I have mine. I see these 80% kits as an emerging issue, many of you don't. You have your opinion, your conciousness to deal with, not mine. I don't consider making the purchase of these kits FFL / background check required as a gun control issue, but more of doing the right thing. Certainly not a further infringement on our rights as some of you have suggested, which is ridiculous.
Unfortunately the Gun control advocates picked up this issue first and now any attempt to discuss it is looked at in the same light as gun registration, micro stamping, magazine bans, etc., another wacky Liberal infringement on our rights. Any attempt at Socratic dialectic pertaining to the matter ends up like this one, quickly dissolved & drowned out by emotions, finger pointing and fear.
I'm off the soap box.

Jim Watson · November 8, 2020, 10:44 AM

Here is the fate of one of those parts guns the builder thought equal to OEM.
He was wrong.
https://www.glocktalk.com/threads/cr...slide.1872682/

It wasn't the unfinished receiver that failed, but still...

TunnelRat · November 8, 2020, 10:49 AM

I’m not inferring or attacking anyone. I’m interpreting the arguments that are being made as best I can. I’ve met a lot of people over the years that have said they are pro gun but their definition of pro gun doesn’t match mine. It is what it is. As for my conscience, I’m just fine with it. This isn’t the first time someone on the internet has disagreed with me and it’s not enough to make me question my own beliefs.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Metric · November 8, 2020, 10:57 AM

Generally speaking, the creation of additional "victimless crimes" isn't going to make our lives any better.

Onward Allusion · November 8, 2020, 11:25 AM

Those of you who have their undies in a bundle do know that you can 3D print a Glock patterned frame and drop steel inserts in for the rails, right? eBay as the rails. We're not talking one of those single use one shot pistols, either. Want a AR receive - ditto. Want an AK, there are Youtubes that will teach you how to make the receiver from sheet metal. No 80% kits needed. Don't want a DIY? Get some Bitcoin, a Tor browser, and go nuts.

The genie is out. While 80% kits make putting a firearm together from scratch a little easier, it's still not faster than getting one off the streets. Trust me on this.

I had put together a couple of the Polymer80 kits because it was fun. I got to select all the custom parts. My Glock patterned pistols cost about twice what it would have cost at the LGS. For me it wasn't about saving money or flying under the radar 'cause I got plenty of toys. It was just plain fun.

**Aguila Blanca** · November 8, 2020, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shurshot

When it comes to these 80% kit "Ghost Guns", having them numbered and sold through dealers / FFL background checks completed, in my opinion, makes the guns and process 100% legitimate ...

The process is currently 100% legitimate. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Quote:

Originally Posted by shurshot

AB, you are preaching to the choir, trust me. I'm slightly to the right of Attila The Hun, politically speaking. More gun laws are pointless, I agree.

And yet, here you are -- arguing vehemently for yet another gun law ...

If I'm preaching to the choir, you must have a different score than the one I'm reading from.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shurshot

"The good guys will have one more impediment to enjoying lawful firearms ownership,"AB.

Seriously? That's BS and you know it. Going through a background check to buy a 80% kit is "One more impediment"??? Like we don't already do this 15 minute procedure to buy a gun through an FFL.

It's not BS to me. And whether it takes 15 minutes or involves a mandatory x-day wait, an impediment is still an impediment. And you didn't address the issue of the added cost of transfer fees.

**Aguila Blanca** · November 8, 2020, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TunnelRat

To the first point, a number of your comments as I pointed out earlier are practically word for word from gun control arguments in general. Being an NRA Life Member isn’t, in my experience, really an indication of anything.

But it is an indication of something. It's a demonstration of one of the common logical fallacies: the appeal to authority. "I'm an NRA Life Member, so you have to pay attention to me."

**Aguila Blanca** · November 8, 2020, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wild cat mccane

When talking about CA as if 3 in 10 Americans isn’t from CA....

More like 1 in 10.

The U.S. population is 330,561,121. The population of California is 39,937,500. That's 12.08%, not 30%.

amd6547 · November 8, 2020, 11:52 AM

Huh...I check in to Firing Line for the first time in a while, and am treated to a members fevered anti-gun tirade.

**Aguila Blanca** · November 8, 2020, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shurshot

I just had 300 rounds of 10mm delivered last night... I'm no Michael Moore.
You have your opinion and I have mine. I see these 80% kits as an emerging issue, many of you don't. You have your opinion, your conciousness to deal with, not mine. I don't consider making the purchase of these kits FFL / background check required as a gun control issue, but more of doing the right thing. Certainly not a further infringement on our rights as some of you have suggested, which is ridiculous.

Since you conceded a few posts up that you agree to disagree, why are you still pushing your argument when it should be obvious that nobody here agrees with you?

The weakness of your argument should be obvious by your repeated "appeals to authority." I cited one above. This portion of your subsequent post contains not one but two logical fallacies:

"I just had 300 rounds of 10mm delivered last night..." Another appeal to authority.

"Certainly not a further infringement on our rights as some of you have suggested, which is ridiculous." Appeal to ridicule (reductio ad absurdum)

November 8, 2020, 01:59 AM	#51
shurshot Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2006 Posts: 1,819	TunnelRat, you are entitled to your opinion. I disagree, these kits ARE an emerging issue. Not Vice News, but another media source interviewed the ATF in California... "Forty-one percent, so almost half our cases we're coming across are these 'ghost guns'," said Carlos A. Canino, the Special Agent in charge of the ATF Los Angeles Field Division. "What's changed is technology. The technology makes it easy for someone to make one of these, even to mass produce these." https://abc7.com/ghost-guns-californ...-kits/5893043/ Although this is Giffords, its probably no more slanted than Vice... https://giffords.org/blog/2020/05/gh...riminals-blog/ "I'm equally mystified as to how you can claim that it IS an issue. As someone else already commented, you haven't provided any statistics to support your contention that it is an issue."(AB) ??? Last edited by shurshot; November 8, 2020 at 02:20 AM.

November 8, 2020, 02:22 AM	#53
shurshot Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2006 Posts: 1,819	"First, the article only talks about southern California -- one office of the BATFE. Second, he's not necessarily talking about guns used in crimes, but about guns recovered from people who have been arrested."(AB) Exactly!!!! Guns that have been recovered from people who have been arrested... CRIMINALS. Criminals carrying ghost guns!!! Isn't that in itself a crime AB? YES, Thank you!! They didn't buy them through a licensed dealer or go through a background check and were arrested for other crimes!! Thanks for making my point. Here is an NBC article depicting ghost guns used by a criminal to kill a police officer. I'm sure some of you may remember this since you state you follow this ghost gun topic; https://www.nbcnews.com/news/crime-c...t-gun-n1042811 "Today more than 40% of crime guns recovered by ATF agents in California are ghost guns."(Giffords/ATF). AB and TunnelRat, do you STILL think these are not being misused because there are not widespread "statistics" ??? So are we to ignore California ATF statistics? What is acceptable? Stats from 3 states, 10... how many?How many people must die (like the aforementioned Police Officer), in order to compile statistics that are acceptable to you?? As I previously stated, would it be that inconvenient to go through an FFL dealer and background check in order to buy one of these 80% kits? If it helps keep these scumbags from getting guns, wouldn't it be worth it? Last edited by shurshot; November 8, 2020 at 03:07 AM.

November 8, 2020, 03:35 AM	#57
shurshot Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2006 Posts: 1,819	https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.was...outputType=amp 3 more... not in California. Last edited by shurshot; November 8, 2020 at 03:42 AM.

November 8, 2020, 03:41 AM	#58
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,981	Shurshot- Why do you care that other people make "ghost guns/" They are entirely legal to make. "Ghost guns" are just the latest thing the gun grabbers are after. "Saturday night specials," "assault rifles," "bump stocks," "high capacity magazines," etc. Face it- these people don't like ANY guns. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

November 8, 2020, 04:57 AM	#60
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,459	Shurshot, have you read the Second Amendment? Where does the Second Amendment say anything about serial numbers? Ten or fifteen years ago it was posited that there were more than 20,000 (that's twenty THOUSAND) gun laws in the United States. 20,000 gun laws haven't prevented bad people from doing bad things, so what makes you think that one more law will change that? And how many more anti-gun laws have been added to that 20,000 in the last decade or so? Requiring people to buy 80% receivers through FFLs won't make any difference at all. The good guys will have one more impediment to enjoying lawful firearms ownership, and the bad guys will continue to get their guns on street corners late at night. Here's a source of [more or less] unvarnished statistics -- the FBI: https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/pr...ime-statistics In 2019, there were an estimated 1,203,808 violent crimes in the United States. How many were committed with ghost guns? There were 13,927 murders in the United States in 2019. How many were committed with ghost guns? With that, I doubt anything I have to say is going to change your mind, and I know that nothing you have to say is going to change my opposition to anti-"ghost gun" laws, so I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree. __________________ NRA Life Member / Certified Instructor NRA Chief RSO / CMP RSO 1911 Certified Armorer Jeepaholic

November 8, 2020, 03:19 AM	#55
shurshot Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2006 Posts: 1,819	"A prohibited person possessing a firearm is a crime, of course -- but it's essentially a paper or victimless crime."(AB) True... until there is a victim. Prohibited persons carrying guns???... HMmmm... yep, probably well intentioned individuals on their way to volunteer at the local community outreach center or to do charity work at the local orphanage.

November 8, 2020, 03:44 AM	#59
shurshot Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2006 Posts: 1,819	Did you read all the previous posts Bill?

November 8, 2020, 06:15 AM	#61
shurshot Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2006 Posts: 1,819	AB, you are preaching to the choir, trust me. I'm slightly to the right of Attila The Hun, politically speaking. More gun laws are pointless, I agree. NRA Lifemember here. We are on the same side, trust me. Part of your last post, although far more definitive, refined and updated, is almost identical to a presentation I gave in a High School Civics class in the early 80's, much to the ire of the liberal teacher. Now that I have responded to your implication that I haven't read the Constitution or understand the 2nd Amendment and how more gun laws won't work, can we get back on topic? When it comes to these 80% kit "Ghost Guns", having them numbered and sold through dealers / FFL background checks completed, in my opinion, makes the guns and process 100% legitimate and closes one more opportunity for scumbags to get guns. Will it stop them from obtaining them from other sources... of course not. But like it or not, criminals and those of bad intentions ARE currently buying / obtaining, carrying and using these guns for nefarious purposes, as the aforementioned links and ATF sources depict. As I previously stated, ANYONE can buy a 80% ghost gun kit online, unfettered, as easily as buying a pair of socks on Amazon. If that's not an issue for some of you, yes, I guess we have to agree to disagree. *"The good guys will have one more impediment to enjoying lawful firearms ownership,"AB.* Seriously? That's BS and you know it. Going through a background check to buy a 80% kit is "One more impediment"??? Like we don't already do this 15 minute procedure to buy a gun through an FFL. Last edited by shurshot; November 8, 2020 at 07:56 AM.

November 8, 2020, 08:33 AM	#62
Metric Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2016 Posts: 339	The stats exist. The reason we don't know the stats at the moment is that the media would be utterly ashamed/embarrassed to report them to you. You would immediately come to the conclusion that "ghost guns" are not a problem, and that certain people just love controlling you. The tip-off is that they have been used by criminals "in 38 states." That means 12 states where the number of criminal uses is zero. So we can reasonably estimate that that in the majority of states, the number is one criminal use or less. If I am generally not afraid of the existence of handguns, and their inevitable use by criminals, I am definitely not going to be afraid of "ghost guns." I am much more afraid of a federal government that feels the need to track and "regulate" every aspect of my life.

November 8, 2020, 09:54 AM	#64
wild cat mccane Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 3,623	When talking about CA as if 3 in 10 Americans isn’t from CA....

November 8, 2020, 10:39 AM	#66
shurshot Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2006 Posts: 1,819	Rat, yes, my personal perspective is slanted against scumbags easily obtaining guns and commiting crimes, killing cops and innocent victims. Over time, it's hard not to see the bigger picture and question where our society is headed. Our individual occupations and experiences are all different too. I have seen what people intent on obtaining guns and committing evil acts have done. You Inferring that I am a gun control advocate in disguise as a NRA member is condescending at best. We are in a virtual culture war in this country and you are attacking your own team mate due to me having a different take on how easily available this 80% kits are? As our new President says; "C'mon Man"! . I just had 300 rounds of 10mm delivered last night... I'm no Michael Moore. You have your opinion and I have mine. I see these 80% kits as an emerging issue, many of you don't. You have your opinion, your conciousness to deal with, not mine. I don't consider making the purchase of these kits FFL / background check required as a gun control issue, but more of doing the right thing. Certainly not a further infringement on our rights as some of you have suggested, which is ridiculous. Unfortunately the Gun control advocates picked up this issue first and now any attempt to discuss it is looked at in the same light as gun registration, micro stamping, magazine bans, etc., another wacky Liberal infringement on our rights. Any attempt at Socratic dialectic pertaining to the matter ends up like this one, quickly dissolved & drowned out by emotions, finger pointing and fear. I'm off the soap box.

November 8, 2020, 10:44 AM	#67
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,535	Here is the fate of one of those parts guns the builder thought equal to OEM. He was wrong. https://www.glocktalk.com/threads/cr...slide.1872682/ It wasn't the unfinished receiver that failed, but still...

November 8, 2020, 10:49 AM	#68
TunnelRat Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 12,214	Remind me why * Someone* would want an unfinished 80% Glock knock off... I’m not inferring or attacking anyone. I’m interpreting the arguments that are being made as best I can. I’ve met a lot of people over the years that have said they are pro gun but their definition of pro gun doesn’t match mine. It is what it is. As for my conscience, I’m just fine with it. This isn’t the first time someone on the internet has disagreed with me and it’s not enough to make me question my own beliefs. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

November 8, 2020, 10:57 AM	#69
Metric Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2016 Posts: 339	Generally speaking, the creation of additional "victimless crimes" isn't going to make our lives any better.

November 8, 2020, 11:25 AM	#70
Onward Allusion Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2009 Location: Back in a Non-Free State Posts: 3,133	Those of you who have their undies in a bundle do know that you can 3D print a Glock patterned frame and drop steel inserts in for the rails, right? eBay as the rails. We're not talking one of those single use one shot pistols, either. Want a AR receive - ditto. Want an AK, there are Youtubes that will teach you how to make the receiver from sheet metal. No 80% kits needed. Don't want a DIY? Get some Bitcoin, a Tor browser, and go nuts. The genie is out. While 80% kits make putting a firearm together from scratch a little easier, it's still not faster than getting one off the streets. Trust me on this. I had put together a couple of the Polymer80 kits because it was fun. I got to select all the custom parts. My Glock patterned pistols cost about twice what it would have cost at the LGS. For me it wasn't about saving money or flying under the radar 'cause I got plenty of toys. It was just plain fun. __________________ Simple as ABC . . . Always Be Carrying

November 8, 2020, 11:52 AM	#74
amd6547 Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2006 Posts: 2,313	Huh...I check in to Firing Line for the first time in a while, and am treated to a members fevered anti-gun tirade. __________________ The past is gone...the future may never happen. Be Here Now.