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Old October 28, 2020, 07:02 AM   #1
5pins
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Remington .380 ACP 102gr Golden Saber in Vyes Ballistics Gel



Test Gun: Ruger LCP
Barrel length: 2.75 inches.
Ammunition: Remington .380 ACP 102gr Golden Saber
Test media: 10% Vyse Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average: 821fps
BB Calibration: 3.75 inches.

https://general-cartridge.com/2020/1...allistics-gel/
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Old October 28, 2020, 11:14 AM   #2
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Nice review
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Old October 28, 2020, 12:08 PM   #3
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Federal DEEP continue to looks the best:

https://general-cartridge.com/2020/0...allistics-gel/
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Old October 29, 2020, 06:33 PM   #4
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Thanks for the review.

From another one:
"The problem with the .380 is it doesn’t have the ass or the mass to make the FBI standard of 12 to 18 inches with acceptable expansion. What one tends to see is either good expansion with shallow penetration or over penetration with little or no expansion."

My bold above. I mentioned over penetration with .380 in a thread, and some folks got a good laugh about it.

Have you tested the Sig 100gr FMJ?
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Old October 31, 2020, 03:55 PM   #5
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Keep in mind that the FBI protocols were intended for duty/service ammunition.

Over the years some of the major ammo makers have realized that not all private defensive ammunition users may desire, or require, that their ammunition be able to defeat the same intermediate barrier materials and exhibit the same "performance".

Comes to that, there's even been disagreement among LE agency users whether bonded JHP's offer a benefit for their envisioned needs. In the earlier years of bonded handgun ammunition, expansion often took a backseat to penetration. Nowadays we're seeing further developments that have offered bonded pistol bullets the potential to come close to the potential expansion of non-bonded JHP's. Market demand can drive innovation.

Sometimes a lower felt recoil is more of an advantage for the private user, too.

Now that I'm no longer in a position of having to consider the potential need to invoke peace officer status to intervene in circumstances beyond personal defense, I'm even less concerned whether my ammunition meets the protocols for duty/service ammunition. I hope for robust expansion and sufficient penetration, but at the same time I also wish to avoid the potential for threat perforation ("over-penetration").

Consider that one of the reportedly most effective .38SPL +P snub loads is the Speer 135gr GDHP/SB, and it falls short of the minimum 12" in some of the normal testing protocols when used in the intended short barreled revolver (1 7/8" S&W M640 used in development testing). Speer's own ballistic testing (in their Tech Data Package) shows average penetration of 11" in Bare Gel, Heavy Clothing and Auto Glass; and 10" in Wallboard. It only meets or exceeds the 12" depth in the IWBA 4LD (13") test and the Plywood & Steel (12"). Yet the NYPD is very pleased with it.

When I first saw it used in another agency's hosted gel event, I vaguely recall the Bare Gel and Heavy Cloth shots (fired from an attendee's S&W 360PD) did approx 10" penetration. That was similar to the 125gr +P Rem Golden Sabre being carried by the attendee providing the use of his snub, when he wanted to see how it performed. Now, granted, while the organic gel block used for those shots had been refrigerated and properly calibrated with BB rifle shots prior to the block being used for other test shots, the block had some fractures in it from previous test shots, and it was warming up in the outdoor range conditions. Not exactly the same as carefully controlled lab conditions in an ammo maker's facility.
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Old October 31, 2020, 10:21 PM   #6
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Nice. I really liked the 9mm reviews and while I felt that the ammo I chose for my carry gun was a good choice, I feel a little better about it now...

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Old October 31, 2020, 11:06 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastbolt
Comes to that, there's even been disagreement among LE agency users whether bonded JHP's offer a benefit for their envisioned needs. In the earlier years of bonded handgun ammunition, expansion often took a backseat to penetration. Nowadays we're seeing further developments that have offered bonded pistol bullets the potential to come close to the potential expansion of non-bonded JHP's. Market demand can drive innovation.
Indeed. It wasn't very long ago that I asked a friend, who is a retired police chief, police firearms trainer, and certified armorer what he would recommend for 9mm ammunition (I was considering buying a 9mm after decades of carrying 1911s in .45 ACP). He named three, one of which was Golden Saber -- and he specified NON-bonded.
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Old November 1, 2020, 12:10 PM   #8
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Great review as always, thanks.
But with the ammo situation as it is now, I have to quote some famous politician "What Difference At This Point Does It Make?" LOL
For right now it seems the best SD ammo is whatever you already have, or can scrounge up somewhere!
But useful information for the future when considering a change from my usual Gold Dot.
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Old November 1, 2020, 01:02 PM   #9
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The velocity seems extremely low, I'm used to seeing around 1000fps from .380 ACP, not to mention deeper penetration, but then again, Golden Sabers are an older brand, so it's possible that Remington never bothered to load their .380 ACP Golden Sabers hotter over the years as more high quality, locked breach .380 ACP pistols hit the market which are capable of handling higher pressures that the old straight blowback Ring of Fire pistols of decades passed.
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Old November 2, 2020, 09:21 PM   #10
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380 can go DEEPER than 45. The variation between calibers is not what people think. Lucky gunner has 380 HST going 31 inches. Not all 45 fmj can do that.
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Old November 6, 2020, 04:48 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca View Post
Indeed. It wasn't very long ago that I asked a friend, who is a retired police chief, police firearms trainer, and certified armorer what he would recommend for 9mm ammunition (I was considering buying a 9mm after decades of carrying 1911s in .45 ACP). He named three, one of which was Golden Saber -- and he specified NON-bonded.
Yeah, as you start going outside and listening to other agencies at the state and local levels, the non-bonded JHP's have usually done well in actual shooting incidents.

Once we were finally able to get away from the former state contract budget W-W or Rem 147gr old style JHP's (think USA or Express), I've seen the 9mm inventory include W-W T-Series (127gr +P+, 124gr +P & 147gr), Rem GS 124gr +P and Fed 147gr HST (standard pressure). I'm not fussy about which of them I used, or continue to use. The current state contract out here includes both Federal and Speer (both being Vista companies), with end users having the choice of either 124gr +P or 147gr in both lines, since they all passed the state's demanding ballistic testing. I was just told that the previous 1 month ETA for deliveries is no longer in effect. Now it'll take whatever it takes. A friend of mine told me that one of his duty ammo orders from March just arrived. If you need it now, you shop among the LE vendors in your region to find someone with something from one of the major American ammo makers in their warehouse right now, and available for delivery within the week.

FWIW, it sounds like the Fed HST is usually seeing the nod ... because it's less expensive than the equivalent Speer rounds. Approx $250/1000rd case v. $285/1000rd case, both 124gr +P & 147gr, which can start to add up when you're ordering 10K, 20K or 50K rounds at a time, and you also need to set aside enough money to spend on your other pistol calibers, as well as rifle training/duty & frang ammo, Tasers (at about $900/ea), force-on-force gear and dye-marking ammo, etc.

Just ordering a case at a time? Pick whatever you like, for why ever you like it, and don't worry about the not-quite-a-nickel difference in cost per round. ($0.2495 v. 0.2848 per rd) Naturally, if you can get the same ammo at retail store shelf pricing, even in half-size commercial boxes, the prices begin to reach a low orbit.

Maybe we'll start to see an improvement in ammo availability about the time we see widespread availability of a vaccine.

This can make the less costly Ball training lines seem pretty appealing, at either contract bid prices ($0.1791/rd for Speer, in either 124/147gr weight), or store prices (catch as catch can).

Lots of things to try and juggle in your thinking and decision-making without adding the nuances of bonded v. non-bonded to the mix. (Like getting hits on intended targets, regardless of what's being used.)
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