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Old January 17, 2018, 08:11 AM   #1
HiBC
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Careful what you use to clean your bore

I'll put this here for max exposure.
A good friend of my brother is rather dismayed. A preventable bummer.

He has been doing some competitive longer range shooting. The rifle is an Accuracy International in 6.5 x 47. It has 2000 rounds through it.

Up front,I'll say it seems he did something unfortunate.This is NOT a comment on Accuracy International rifles or the 6.5x47 round.

The borescope shows an alligator skin throat. He is meticulous.I learned he uses brake cleaner in his bore.

I recommend that anyone interested go here:

http://www.schuemann.com/Documentation.aspx

Or to the Schuemann barrels website,then to documentation.

Read the articles on barrel cleaning,and barrel steel.

Take it for what it is worth. I'm not going to argue about it,do whatever makes you happy.

You can put whatever you want in your barrel.

(Spoiler,type 416 R barrel steel is quite susceptible to chemical damage. Do not switch around on bore cleaning chemicals,do not,for example ,use Sweets followed by another bore cleaner,and do not put chlorinated hydrocarbons ,either by themselves or particularly in combination with other bore cleaning products .They even say "Don't use Butches this month,then something else next month You read,and decide. )
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Old January 17, 2018, 05:04 PM   #2
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From the post, it sounds like the problem is in the throat area of the barrel. Why would bore cleaning chemicals affect the throat more than the rest of the barrel?
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Old January 17, 2018, 05:18 PM   #3
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Did you read the articles?
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Old January 17, 2018, 05:42 PM   #4
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One reason is that the throat, being larger than the barrel, tends to leave more cleaning residue in it. When you switch from a carbon solvent to an ammonia based copper solvent this is the place those compounds are going to mix.

A dry patch probably isn't enough, and there is bound to be some seepage even with a good bore guide. I try to clean out the cleaner with Kroil if I'm going to switch solvents and use an ammonia based copper solvent. I use a larger swab to clean out the chamber and the throat after I remove the bore guide.

I think the throat probably gets the least attention when your cleaning, and it should get the most.
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Old January 17, 2018, 07:27 PM   #5
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Question: is type 416 R barrel steel used a lot in commercial firearms or is it a 'custom' thing?

(I did read the article and it made me feel pretty smart to always stick with Hoppes #9 ...but then it made me feel kind of old too. )
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Old January 17, 2018, 07:30 PM   #6
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Brake cleaner bad for steel??
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Old January 17, 2018, 07:33 PM   #7
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Brake cleaner bad for steel??
No. It is used commonly. HOWEVER, one problem with brake cleaner is that it totally removes all protective oils from the metal surface. After using it, you must re-apply a thin coating of oil to protect the metal.
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Old January 17, 2018, 07:42 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Doyle View Post
No. It is used commonly. HOWEVER, one problem with brake cleaner is that it totally removes all protective oils from the metal surface. After using it, you must re-apply a thin coating of oil to protect the metal.
Yeah I know, but it does alligator skin to it???
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Old January 17, 2018, 08:51 PM   #9
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DaleA you are old and smart I only use Hoppes9 and gun oil on my firearms and they function just fine.

Last edited by JB60; January 17, 2018 at 09:12 PM.
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Old January 17, 2018, 09:45 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by HiBC View Post
Did you read the articles?
I did not before I first replied. But after now having read them I still saw no mention of throats being more susceptible to chemical corrosion from bore solvents.

There may be some merit to Ozean's statements however.

The most disappointing thing about the articles is the general lack of positive suggestions for barrel cleaning, except perhaps the use of Kroil and JB Bore Compound. Surely there is something better than never cleaning a barrel and leaving powder residue in the bore (which also promotes corrosion, especially in the presence of humidity).

Edit: Added JB Bore Compound

Last edited by BBarn; January 17, 2018 at 10:00 PM.
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Old January 17, 2018, 11:25 PM   #11
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If you have not read the articles,I'm not going to transcribe them.I'moffering some very good information.If its not worth reading to you,well,you may do as you wish with your barrel.
If you buy a stainless barrel,it is most likely 416 R. The "R"is for "rifle"

This steel has sulphur added to it to improve the machining characteristics of the steel.It gives a better finish,but at a price. These chemicals penetrate into the sulphur and react with it.
It happens more rapidly in the throat because there is more heat and pressure there.
The bulk of the article was written by some guy named Borden at Precision Shooting Magazine. Rings a bell.
TFL does not like copy and paste of someone elses work.I gave you a source.

Once again,I freely offer what I have found.You can read it,learn as you choose,and do whatever you want to your barrel.

Not my job to convince anybody.

And Doyle,there is more to it than completely degreasing the steel.

One of the sources in the article:

Precision Shooting Magazine, December,'93,"Rifle Barrel Cleaning Materials and Barrel
Corrosion", by Jim Borden, presented information about the etching of 416 barrel surfaces by
various chemicals.

Last edited by HiBC; January 17, 2018 at 11:40 PM.
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Old January 18, 2018, 12:02 AM   #12
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As I said above, I didn't read the articles before my first post, but I did read them before my post just above.

I went back and read the articles yet again and saw one mention of chlorinated aerosols (sometimes used to dry chambers) possibly accelerating corrosion in chambers when combined with certain other solvents.

Still would have been more helpful if the article on cleaning had some positive cleaning suggestions beyond scraping the chamber with a brass rod (though Kroil and JB Bore Compound seemed to be good according to one of one of the quoted snips).
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Old January 18, 2018, 12:27 AM   #13
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DaleA you are old and smart I only use Hoppes9 and gun oil on my firearms and they function just fine.
BINGO!!!
Does everything any of the amateur chemists home brew, and automotive products do. Just made to do it in guns!
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Old January 18, 2018, 02:32 AM   #14
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That's a some seriously disjointed reading.
It's like watching my autistic daughter bounce from Doc McStuffins to Backyardigans, to PeeWee's Playhouse, to Paw Patrol, and then on to PJ Masks, and more...


My personal opinion:
Your friend fried his barrel early on by not watching how much he was heating it. ...And then, eventually, blamed it on cleaning agents by only getting around to bore-scoping it when performance degraded.

Argue if you wish, but the few details provided lead me to operator error and excessive heat - not cleaning agents.
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Old January 18, 2018, 06:45 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by FrankenMauser View Post
That's a some seriously disjointed reading.
It's like watching my autistic daughter bounce from Doc McStuffins to Backyardigans, to PeeWee's Playhouse, to Paw Patrol, and then on to PJ Masks, and more...


My personal opinion:
Your friend fried his barrel early on by not watching how much he was heating it. ...And then, eventually, blamed it on cleaning agents by only getting around to bore-scoping it when performance degraded.

Argue if you wish, but the few details provided lead me to operator error and excessive heat - not cleaning agents.
I agree, that was horrible reading. And feel that the barrel was overheated because I have seen that same thing happen from over heating. The fact of it happening after 2k of shooting also helps to support that theory.
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Old January 18, 2018, 07:52 AM   #16
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Sounds like heat cracking to me as well. You could tell him to try a Tubbs TMS kit it might clean up the throat.
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Old January 18, 2018, 12:54 PM   #17
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It has always seemed to me that the best bore cleaner is one that was developed just for that. I've used Hoppe's for a lot of years and no complaints.
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Old January 18, 2018, 03:50 PM   #18
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Every barrel is different. Barrels from the same manufacturer are different.
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Old January 18, 2018, 08:14 PM   #19
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HiBC,

Thanks for sending that website on. On reading through the barrel cleaning section, what caught my eye mostly was this comment:

"Most American barrel makers hesitate to recommend Sweets as a regular bore cleaner because experience seems to show that barrels last longer with other petro-chemical based bore cleaners like Hoppes No. 9 or Shooters Choice. Ammonia is present in bore cleaners like Hoppes No. 9 in the form of ammonia oleate."

I believe I've read that the recipe for H#9 has had some ingredient changes from when it was originally offered commercially long, long ago. Hatcher's Notebook gives this for the recipe (approximates of his findings) as he researched it back in the 1920s. In his book, first published in 1947, he admits he didn't know if the recipe given below had changed even back then. Here's what he found for H#9s ingredients back in the 20s, as I understand it:

Ammonium oleate...................................16%
Neutral Saponifiable oil............................24%
Nitro-benzene.........................................6%
Light Mineral Oil, such as kersosene,
along with Amyl acetate...........................54%

If I remember right, I believe the Nitro-benzene was one ingredient changed out to some other additive (?)

Personally, I'm an H#9, die-hard advocate, too, and I've never used Sweets or any other bore cleaner with lots of ammonia present. I've heard from enough shooters through the years, along with the professional gunsmith I use when I need that service, that Sweets has ruined more rifle barrels than one might imagine. I can only guess that using that bore cleaner has to be monitored very closely, and in a timely manner. I've never used stainless steel bore brushes either.

In the last paragraph of that article, I had to raise my eyebrows a bit when the author claimed as his personal practice that he NEVER cleans his barrels.

An old shooter/machinist/gun-building friend once told me you never have to worry about H#9 hurting a firearm. I believe him, and I'll continue using that tried and true old stuff; it has always worked for me and my guns.
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Old January 19, 2018, 07:24 AM   #20
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Alligators in your barrel ? That's a good description of what is often called 'erosion ' but in fact is the effect of letting the barrel get too hot and the steel absorbing carbon from the hot gases of combustion !!
We metallurgists understand all this but it seems to be lost on many shooters. A proper metallurgical test was shown many years ago by a Canadian. Slow down your shooting let the barrel cool between shots.
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Old January 19, 2018, 08:07 AM   #21
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I understand heat checking is the typical way nearly ALL stainless barrels eventually give it up. At some point a scale flakes off,and the barrel is done.
I understand it has to do with approx. 4500 deg f gas flash heating a microscopic depth of surface steel.As stainless is not as good of a conductor,a marked temperature differential between the very surface and the substrate at an ambient temperature will inevitably result in shear stresses at the surface.
I get that.
But down at the grain structure level,,the threads of sulphur being attacked by chemicals also has a micro-fissure effect on the steels surface.
There was something in the article about a PhD Chemist explaining how extremely corrosive chlorate salts being formed in these micro-fissures due to ammonia and chlorinated hydrocarbons mixing together.
I do not pretend to be a metallurgist or a chemist.
I have read a lot of articles by Mr Borden in Precision Shooting,The Accurate Rifle,and other serious shooting publications.

He does know a thing or two about rifles.

And Mr Sceumann knows a thing or two about handgun barrels.That Kunhausen guy seems to think highly of him.

Here are a few things I find interesting about the responses.There was a focus on the apparent shortcomings of a barrel maker's literary composition skills versus what he was trying to tell us. Mr Scheuman simply gathered a collection of comments from some of the knowledgable people in the field of rifle or pistol barrel accuracy.

IMO,how his work would be graded as a school paper is irrelevant.

The commentors who suggested my aquaintances rate of fire is the issue have never met my friend,never watched him shoot,and they have no idea of his rate of fire. You explain away new information by invalidating it with your own head fantasies.
Mr Frankenmauser: I did not indicate that my friend blamed anyone or anything.He made excuses for nothing.You don't know him. Could it be you are trying to fil in the blanks by projecting your own process?

All my friend did was ,with an open mind,humbly ask "What is going on?"
When I learned he was using Brake Clean,I passed on to him what I had read years ago.
Kind of stupid of me,but I thought I'd share here,thinking I might help someone not scrap a barrel. And I did clearly state"You do whatever you want"

Its rather like when I recently lost a lovely young 35 year old woman friend to a really stupid house fire,I put it out there that "Yes,oily rags really can start a fire"
Of course,I got unpleasant feedback for that,too.


Typically the competition this gentleman engages in amounts to very small targets at various ranges out to 1000 yds plus.Typically he is only allowed a max of two rounds per target.Then there is a move toa different stage. He does not shoot strings.These are sniper competition type folks,many of them SWAT team people.
He's also a very technically minded engineer,who is quite aware of the $6000 or $7000 he paid for the rifle.
To say it another way,you don't know what you are talking about.You make up things in your head to explain what you don't understand.

I know when I was making aircraft,submarine,etc parts,the chlorinated hydrocarbon tapping fluids (like Rapid Tap,old formula) were forbidden because they affected some steels.

Back to heat. I'd agree,don't get your barrel too hot to comfortably hold.. How hot is that? 150 deg,160? Might a barrel get pretty hot in the sun?
So,a 90 deg barrel ,in the summer,would heat up what? 60 deg before the "experts" say heat is going to damage the barrel?
I call BS. IMO,you could boil that barrel before you started a string and it makes no difference.

A uniformly warmed up barrel is not the problem.The problem is a layer of steel,maybe a half a thousandth deep,is heated by 4500 deg gas.I do not care a bit if the steel .005 deep is 100 deg or 200 deg. The problem is that the surface .0005 of steel is a LOT hotter than the steel at a depth of .002.Due to expansion,there is a thin zone of stress a couple of thousandths thick. Its there for a 100 deg barrel,and its there for a 200 deg barrel.

But I'm tired. I'm laughing,I remember a school I used to work at got evacuated and some folks went to the mergency room because...Guess what happened? Some MORON mixed CHLORINE BLEACH with AMMONIA in a bucket. Quite reactive.Makes gas that can kill you. Sure,go ahead,mix them in your rifle bore!

I really do not care a rats hiney hair about what you do with your barrel.

As a matter of fact,to the skeptics,please do,get that good red can brake fluid,some Sweets,and some...What was the other? M-pro 7? Throw in some Tetragun,Barnes Copper remover,Butches Bore Shine! Make a cocktail! If a little is good,a lot is better!And soak it over night.In YOUR barrel,not mine

Have fun with that.

Sometimes...I don't know why I waste my time on people.

'Bye

Last edited by HiBC; January 19, 2018 at 10:41 AM.
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Old January 19, 2018, 10:22 AM   #22
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As near as I can remember, CFCs have not been in brake cleaner for 10-15 years.

They were regulated out.

What is called break (and electrical) cleaner is not non CFC.
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Old January 19, 2018, 10:26 AM   #23
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Back to heat. I'd agree,don't get your barrel too hot to comfortably hold.. How hot is that? 150 deg,160? Might a barrel get pretty hot in the sun?
Rule of thumb is if you can't hold it without burning your hand for 10 seconds its around 180.

Not super technical but you can get a pretty good gauge of a pipe temperature that way sans a thermometer in it.
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Old January 19, 2018, 11:13 AM   #24
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[QUOTEAs near as I can remember, CFCs have not been in brake cleaner for 10-15 years. ][/QUOTE]ff
That is something I have been told several times here on this forom,usually after I suggest not putting Brake Clean in a bore.

I've read the label before.But I humbly accept that I am fallible.

So I went out in the shop,and brought in a recently purchased red can of CRC Brakleen

The label says :Warning: Contains tetrachlorethylene and carbon dioxide.

OK.I'm not a chemist.I agree its not TCE.

I assume the "ethylene" is about an alcohol.
But since chlorine is,IMO,more important to this discussion than hydrocarbon,may we agree that its a chlorinated solvent??

And may we agree there MAY be a problem with Ammonia and Chlorine in a riflebore?Once again,my chemistry knowledge is poor.

I'm asking.

I'll take your word for it on the 180 deg.

I've been told hot salts bluing temps don't hurt a barrel.
Those are over 300 deg.So is a cerrocoat cure

I'll say it another way. My older brother had a nice Royalex Mad River canoe up in Montana. It got cold in the winter. The gunwale co-efficient of expansion was different than the Royalex coefficient of expansion. There were screws through the hull and the gunwale. The hull developed about a 5 in crack at each screw.

IMO,it is not the cold that cracked the hull. It was the temperatire change and the difference in expansion between the materials. The hole pattern changed dimensionally. The stress cracked the hull.

If the thin skin of the bore ID is dimmensioally different,via sharp temperature differential,something has to break after a while.

A hot barrel is not the problem. A hotter bore is one problem. In time,it will cause the bore to fail.No argument. 2000 rounds of 6.5 x 47 IMO,indicates to me something accelerated it.The heat in btu's is in the size of powder charge. Its not a .264 Magnum.
Some chemicals compromise the surface integrity of the steel.

Even shooting serious,accuracy driven sighting or load evelopment strings,its not battle rattle mad minute stuff. This guy is not stupid.
His competition stage is typically a max of two rounds.

IMO,there is tunnel vision on the wrong cause.

Last edited by HiBC; January 19, 2018 at 11:43 AM.
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Old January 19, 2018, 11:26 AM   #25
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As pointed out earlier, it's hard to draw many good conclusions from the articles linked in the OP. After reading the articles several times, my simple takeaway would be...

Don't mix gun cleaning chemicals (or use them in tandem), and stay away from the use of chlorinated aerosols.

Using Sweet's might shorten barrel life compared to other gentler cleaners like Hoppe's 9.

That is very broad, but that's the best I've been able to conclude from it all.

Obviously, some gun care chemicals can be used in tandem, and some areosol products are fine as well. But the OP links don't offer much in the way of positive recommendations other than not cleaning the barrel and scraping the crud from the chamber with a brass rod occasionally.

Edit: changed "aerosols" to "chlorinated aerosols" above.

Last edited by BBarn; January 19, 2018 at 11:32 AM.
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