First load workup AR15 223, opinions?

arpcentralone · November 23, 2017, 05:55 PM

Please look at these primers and groups. I noticed the primers from the reloads are a lot flatter than factory. Here is my load data:

Platform:
Palmetto Multi-15
1:7 twist

Ammunition:
Factory
Federal 55g FMJ (value pack 100)

Reloads:
55g FMJBT (midway bulk) (weighed and selected all of 54.9g)
CFE 223 powder (25g, 26g, 26.5g, 27g)
CCI 400 primers
COAL 2.200
Case trimmed to 1.750

Target distance 35 yards
primers.jpg
group.jpg

Thanks in advance!
Greg

Charlie98 · November 23, 2017, 06:02 PM

What's the twist on your barrel?

arpcentralone · November 23, 2017, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie_98

What's the twist on your barrel?

1:7 as stamped

arpcentralone · November 23, 2017, 06:06 PM

I believe the tighter 25g and the 27g vs the 26 and 26.5 is possibly due to the barrel harmonics, and loads between aren't suited. I am probably wrong, but it might explain why they tightened up when it got hotter.

bacardisteve · November 23, 2017, 08:10 PM

Half grain jump is kinda big for 223. You may be missing an accuracy node. 27gr looks good but try +or -.2 from there and see how it goes. Your primers look fine from what I can tell.

arpcentralone · November 23, 2017, 08:19 PM

Alright, I am going to load some more tonight 27 +/- .2 grain and see how they land tomorrow. I really liked the 25 grain load, as it was much quieter, less recoil, cheaper in the long run and still accurate. I will load some of those +/- .2 as well and see. I will post my findings afterward. Thanks for looking at those primers also, they just seem edged out to me, especially when I get hotter. Some have said that 27.5 is a great load for the CFE 223 powder. Going to try that too.

ocharry · November 23, 2017, 09:41 PM

Are you pretty set on the CFE powder....I have always had really good luck with H4198...and with a 1-7 twist you might want to try a heavier bullet....maybe a 62-69gr

I would think at 25yrds you should be seeing a ragged hole...so when you stretch it out it won't open up to much

I have been using the hornady ELD 52gr bullets in my ar...at 50yrds it makes a ragged hole...at 100 it is around 5/8 group if I do my part

I like to use 50 yrds as my gage...if I can't get a really good group at 50 its not going to be better at 100...

Just some thoughts

Ocharry

arpcentralone · November 23, 2017, 10:38 PM

You are exactly right. I haven't tried any other powder yet, as this is my first reload. It is very possible that, even though this is at a bench rest, user error may also be affecting my grouping. I know the 1:7 is great for heavier, longer bullets, but this is what I ordered before learning my rifle. Also, I'm using a simmons red dot, so there isn't any nice optics. It's hard to see that little target farther than that. This is my defensive rifle for home use, and I likely won't need it farther than 35 yards, but it's an option once I find a decent scope. Not really sure what range to expect with a 16" barrel.

**Unclenick** · November 23, 2017, 10:42 PM

I suspect the fast twist in combination with the short and light bulk grade bullet is working against you. The 7" twist is designed for stabilizing the M856 tracer, which is almost a quarter inch longer than the M855 bullet it flies with, is therefore light relative to its length, and that makes the fast twist necessary to stabilize it. You can stabilize a more dense 190 grain match bullet with it. The heavier match grade bullets will tend to be more accurate with it, both because they have better mass symmetry, longer bearing surface to resist even slight in-bore tilt, and leave slower and at fewer rpm's. But there goes your recoil advantage.

ocharry · November 23, 2017, 11:44 PM

Hmmm....I think....just me....I would get some kind of glass on it to do my testing....dont think you would need to spend a lot....$50-100 scope...do your load testing...get something worked up that shoots good at say 50yrds....once you get where you want to be put your red dot back on and line it up for what ever distance you want

For me a red dot doesn't work for load development.... But for close in fast work they are fine

My rifle has 1-8 twist....the 52gr bullets work really well....I use it for coyotes...they dont like those little bullets to good though

With that 1-7 barrel you might get it to shoot 55gr bullets OK ...but like unclenick said its prolly gona like heavier bullets....for longer ranges.....inside 50 yrds or in your house....ooooh that's gona be loud....it prolly won't make much difference

If you have never shot a rifle inside an enclosed building..... Or house....MAKE SURE you have hearing protection on....lol...short barrel...inside house....bad bad....oh my bad....not like TV

Ocharry

arpcentralone · November 23, 2017, 11:55 PM

Haha, yeah, I won't go into details, but I know what is sounds like indoors...

I guess I just like to shoot it. I'm def going to get a set of optics for it now. Any suggestions?

Charlie98 · November 24, 2017, 09:48 AM

Gear the load for the intended use... if it's home defense, the main qualifier is reliability... accuracy is down the list. Yes, the 1:7 is probably not helping, I originally loaded 55grn FMJ for my 1:7 H-bar, not understanding the significance of twist rate, and accuracy was not good at 100yds... and I didn't understand why. Now I do, so it gets 69grn bullets and all is well.

Not trying to derail the thread, but unless you live in the boonies, I would either find something better for home defense (12ga) or tailor your ammo to prevent overpenetration... something like frangible bullets.

arpcentralone · November 24, 2017, 10:40 AM

Yes, I have plenty to learn. I'm going to wait on more loads until I learn more about my rifle. Thank you all for the great info and advise!

arpcentralone · December 3, 2017, 02:11 PM

Alright, put a scope on, using:
UTG 3-12X44 30mm Compact Scope

Firstly, this scope is not a bank breaker, and stays put shot after shot on the ar platform. A little long, but the clearances aren't too bad. Love the parallax adjust on it. Locking rings keep'er from gettin knocked out of adjustment. Overall, very pleased.

Now, to the data:
Factory loads get me in the 1/4" group at 40 yards, hand loads get me about 1/8" at same distance. I think I have found my new loads for this bugger. Going to try a farther range, possibly 100 or better. Any suggestions on range? Decided not to use as a home defense firearm but more as a range toy/target buster. Thanks for all the great input!

arpcentralone · December 3, 2017, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie_98

Gear the load for the intended use... if it's home defense, the main qualifier is reliability... accuracy is down the list. Yes, the 1:7 is probably not helping, I originally loaded 55grn FMJ for my 1:7 H-bar, not understanding the significance of twist rate, and accuracy was not good at 100yds... and I didn't understand why. Now I do, so it gets 69grn bullets and all is well.

Not trying to derail the thread, but unless you live in the boonies, I would either find something better for home defense (12ga) or tailor your ammo to prevent overpenetration... something like frangible bullets.

Yes, I do live in the boonies, with approx 1-1.5 mile visibility in most directions.

hounddawg · December 3, 2017, 03:22 PM

I would go with the CCI 450 primer which has a slightly thicker cup to accommodate for the AR's floating firing pin. Probably unnecessary but that was the way I was taught to do it so I do. I have never heard of anyone getting a slam fire for using a non 450 but it the 450's work well for me so I use them.

JeepHammer · December 3, 2017, 06:44 PM

If you discount the furthest out as a flier, looks like you found two nearly identical groups.
I assume this is a 16" barrel since Palmetto sells short barrel about 10:1 over 20" barrels...?

I know this starts a HUGE crap fight every time, but if you have the reduced diameter barrel (M4 undercut for grenade launcher mount) you will probably find there are more loads it doesn't like than likes. The reason is barrel harmonics.
Also be aware that Palmetto has a wide open gas system 99% of the time, slower loads won't chronograph at what you expect, and the rifle might have issues with hotter loads.

hdwhit · December 4, 2017, 12:03 AM

Quote:

arpcentralone wrote:
CFE 223 powder (25g, 26g, 26.5g, 27g)

Increments of a half- or a full-grain are really too wide for you to learn anything about accuracy. It will lead you to blame everything on extraneous factors like primers, case length, seating depth, etc., rather than the fact the "rungs" on the "ladder" were too far apart to provide meaningful data. Try again and go up in 0.2 grain or 0.3 grain. increments and see what your results are.

arpcentralone · December 4, 2017, 02:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hdwhit

Increments of a half- or a full-grain are really too wide for you to learn anything about accuracy. It will lead you to blame everything on extraneous factors like primers, case length, seating depth, etc., rather than the fact the "rungs" on the "ladder" were too far apart to provide meaningful data. Try again and go up in 0.2 grain or 0.3 grain. increments and see what your results are.

Yeah, I already concluded that from researching ladder load workup processes. I had to wait to get some heavier bullets before I attempted a workup for this platform utilizing the 1/7 twist ratio. I am currently trying some 68g and 75g Hornady BTHP's and using the smaller increments for the workups.

bacardisteve · December 5, 2017, 07:14 PM

Those 75gr bthp will shoot! I have run them through every single 223 Me and any of my friends own. Lc brass 24gr varget 75gr bthp cci 400. Moa or better even in a friend's psa freedom upper. They shoot .3 moa in my spr

ed308 · December 5, 2017, 08:32 PM

I like those heavy bullets too. Usually shoot Nosler Custom Comps (68 or 77 gr) with 24 gr Varget, LC brass and whatever primers. .5 MOA. CFE is about the same.

Arbrn Rngr · December 10, 2017, 12:53 PM

Check out Optics Planet, they have great deals on scopes. Really like the "Buckmaster" scopes...Nikon glass, very clear. Also, Nikon now makes glass for the P-223. The scope is made specifically for .223 AR's. (somehow) they have matched the glass to the .223 ballistics. I am a little confused though, if this rifle is specifically for home defense, why a scope at all??? You will get much faster target aquisition with "iron sights". If an intruder is ducking, shucking, and jiving behind walls and furniture the scope is going to be a liability, not an asset, unless of course you live in a mansion with 200 foot rooms. Best home defense is a pump-shotgun with double 00. Hell, they will run when they hear you jack a shell into the chamber.

joeanybody · December 10, 2017, 01:02 PM

Barrel on my ar is 1:9. So i dont know if it relates but i also have had good luck with blc (2).i also use cfe 223 26.7 gr using bulk bullets. Works good.

Arbrn Rngr · December 10, 2017, 01:04 PM

I shoot 77 grain Sierra TMK's from my 1:8 Bushmaster Predator, and it will group 0.25 MOA at 100 yards with a P-223 scope all day long. With a 1:7 twist and a heavier bullet, like a Nosler 80 grain HP you could deliver ALOT of ft/lbs of energy to an intruders thoracic cage....would go through that dry-wall more effectively as well!!

HiBC · December 10, 2017, 11:10 PM

I prefer 69to 77 gr bullets in the tighter twist barrels myself.I like shooting at 200,300 yards and farther.The heavier bullets IMO,fly better.
My experience,Varget for 69 grs,RE-15 for that 75 gr Hornady. I like those bullets,and they are a bit cheaper.

However...for SD purposes...First,I'm not the expert on the best choice.I'm not sure I'd listen to me!
But I might use a 60 grain Varmint Ballistic tip over Benchmark.

Very accurate combination that will do serious trauma,and might not penetrate the walls etc.

November 23, 2017, 05:55 PM	#1
arpcentralone Member Join Date: November 23, 2017 Posts: 34	First load workup AR15 223, opinions? Please look at these primers and groups. I noticed the primers from the reloads are a lot flatter than factory. Here is my load data: Platform: Palmetto Multi-15 1:7 twist Ammunition: Factory Federal 55g FMJ (value pack 100) Reloads: 55g FMJBT (midway bulk) (weighed and selected all of 54.9g) CFE 223 powder (25g, 26g, 26.5g, 27g) CCI 400 primers COAL 2.200 Case trimmed to 1.750 Target distance 35 yards primers.jpg group.jpg Thanks in advance! Greg Last edited by arpcentralone; November 23, 2017 at 06:07 PM.

November 23, 2017, 08:10 PM	#5
bacardisteve Senior Member Join Date: September 5, 2006 Location: West virginia Posts: 653	Half grain jump is kinda big for 223. You may be missing an accuracy node. 27gr looks good but try +or -.2 from there and see how it goes. Your primers look fine from what I can tell. __________________ Kill em all and let God sort em out! USAF

November 23, 2017, 09:41 PM	#7
ocharry Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2006 Posts: 685	Are you pretty set on the CFE powder....I have always had really good luck with H4198...and with a 1-7 twist you might want to try a heavier bullet....maybe a 62-69gr I would think at 25yrds you should be seeing a ragged hole...so when you stretch it out it won't open up to much I have been using the hornady ELD 52gr bullets in my ar...at 50yrds it makes a ragged hole...at 100 it is around 5/8 group if I do my part I like to use 50 yrds as my gage...if I can't get a really good group at 50 its not going to be better at 100... Just some thoughts Ocharry __________________ The felon does not fear the police, and he fears neither judge nor jury. Therefore what he must be taught to fear is his victim." - Lt. Col. Jeff Cooper, USMC

November 23, 2017, 10:42 PM	#9
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,057	I suspect the fast twist in combination with the short and light bulk grade bullet is working against you. The 7" twist is designed for stabilizing the M856 tracer, which is almost a quarter inch longer than the M855 bullet it flies with, is therefore light relative to its length, and that makes the fast twist necessary to stabilize it. You can stabilize a more dense 190 grain match bullet with it. The heavier match grade bullets will tend to be more accurate with it, both because they have better mass symmetry, longer bearing surface to resist even slight in-bore tilt, and leave slower and at fewer rpm's. But there goes your recoil advantage. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

November 23, 2017, 11:44 PM	#10
ocharry Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2006 Posts: 685	Hmmm....I think....just me....I would get some kind of glass on it to do my testing....dont think you would need to spend a lot....$50-100 scope...do your load testing...get something worked up that shoots good at say 50yrds....once you get where you want to be put your red dot back on and line it up for what ever distance you want For me a red dot doesn't work for load development.... But for close in fast work they are fine My rifle has 1-8 twist....the 52gr bullets work really well....I use it for coyotes...they dont like those little bullets to good though With that 1-7 barrel you might get it to shoot 55gr bullets OK ...but like unclenick said its prolly gona like heavier bullets....for longer ranges.....inside 50 yrds or in your house....ooooh that's gona be loud....it prolly won't make much difference If you have never shot a rifle inside an enclosed building..... Or house....MAKE SURE you have hearing protection on....lol...short barrel...inside house....bad bad....oh my bad....not like TV Ocharry __________________ The felon does not fear the police, and he fears neither judge nor jury. Therefore what he must be taught to fear is his victim." - Lt. Col. Jeff Cooper, USMC

November 23, 2017, 06:02 PM	#2
Charlie98 Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2006 Location: Great state of Texas Posts: 1,077	What's the twist on your barrel?

November 23, 2017, 06:06 PM	#4
arpcentralone Member Join Date: November 23, 2017 Posts: 34	I believe the tighter 25g and the 27g vs the 26 and 26.5 is possibly due to the barrel harmonics, and loads between aren't suited. I am probably wrong, but it might explain why they tightened up when it got hotter.

November 23, 2017, 08:19 PM	#6
arpcentralone Member Join Date: November 23, 2017 Posts: 34	Alright, I am going to load some more tonight 27 +/- .2 grain and see how they land tomorrow. I really liked the 25 grain load, as it was much quieter, less recoil, cheaper in the long run and still accurate. I will load some of those +/- .2 as well and see. I will post my findings afterward. Thanks for looking at those primers also, they just seem edged out to me, especially when I get hotter. Some have said that 27.5 is a great load for the CFE 223 powder. Going to try that too.

November 23, 2017, 10:38 PM	#8
arpcentralone Member Join Date: November 23, 2017 Posts: 34	You are exactly right. I haven't tried any other powder yet, as this is my first reload. It is very possible that, even though this is at a bench rest, user error may also be affecting my grouping. I know the 1:7 is great for heavier, longer bullets, but this is what I ordered before learning my rifle. Also, I'm using a simmons red dot, so there isn't any nice optics. It's hard to see that little target farther than that. This is my defensive rifle for home use, and I likely won't need it farther than 35 yards, but it's an option once I find a decent scope. Not really sure what range to expect with a 16" barrel.

November 23, 2017, 11:55 PM	#11
arpcentralone Member Join Date: November 23, 2017 Posts: 34	Haha, yeah, I won't go into details, but I know what is sounds like indoors... I guess I just like to shoot it. I'm def going to get a set of optics for it now. Any suggestions?

November 24, 2017, 09:48 AM	#12
Charlie98 Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2006 Location: Great state of Texas Posts: 1,077	Gear the load for the intended use... if it's home defense, the main qualifier is reliability... accuracy is down the list. Yes, the 1:7 is probably not helping, I originally loaded 55grn FMJ for my 1:7 H-bar, not understanding the significance of twist rate, and accuracy was not good at 100yds... and I didn't understand why. Now I do, so it gets 69grn bullets and all is well. Not trying to derail the thread, but unless you live in the boonies, I would either find something better for home defense (12ga) or tailor your ammo to prevent overpenetration... something like frangible bullets.

November 24, 2017, 10:40 AM	#13
arpcentralone Member Join Date: November 23, 2017 Posts: 34	Yes, I have plenty to learn. I'm going to wait on more loads until I learn more about my rifle. Thank you all for the great info and advise!

December 3, 2017, 02:11 PM	#14
arpcentralone Member Join Date: November 23, 2017 Posts: 34	Got some optics! Alright, put a scope on, using: UTG 3-12X44 30mm Compact Scope Firstly, this scope is not a bank breaker, and stays put shot after shot on the ar platform. A little long, but the clearances aren't too bad. Love the parallax adjust on it. Locking rings keep'er from gettin knocked out of adjustment. Overall, very pleased. Now, to the data: Factory loads get me in the 1/4" group at 40 yards, hand loads get me about 1/8" at same distance. I think I have found my new loads for this bugger. Going to try a farther range, possibly 100 or better. Any suggestions on range? Decided not to use as a home defense firearm but more as a range toy/target buster. Thanks for all the great input!

December 3, 2017, 03:22 PM	#16
hounddawg Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2009 Posts: 4,232	I would go with the CCI 450 primer which has a slightly thicker cup to accommodate for the AR's floating firing pin. Probably unnecessary but that was the way I was taught to do it so I do. I have never heard of anyone getting a slam fire for using a non 450 but it the 450's work well for me so I use them. __________________ “How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek

December 3, 2017, 06:44 PM	#17
JeepHammer Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2015 Posts: 1,768	If you discount the furthest out as a flier, looks like you found two nearly identical groups. I assume this is a 16" barrel since Palmetto sells short barrel about 10:1 over 20" barrels...? I know this starts a HUGE crap fight every time, but if you have the reduced diameter barrel (M4 undercut for grenade launcher mount) you will probably find there are more loads it doesn't like than likes. The reason is barrel harmonics. Also be aware that Palmetto has a wide open gas system 99% of the time, slower loads won't chronograph at what you expect, and the rifle might have issues with hotter loads.

December 5, 2017, 07:14 PM	#20
bacardisteve Senior Member Join Date: September 5, 2006 Location: West virginia Posts: 653	Those 75gr bthp will shoot! I have run them through every single 223 Me and any of my friends own. Lc brass 24gr varget 75gr bthp cci 400. Moa or better even in a friend's psa freedom upper. They shoot .3 moa in my spr __________________ Kill em all and let God sort em out! USAF

December 5, 2017, 08:32 PM	#21
ed308 Senior Member Join Date: November 5, 2016 Location: DFW, TX Posts: 1,147	I like those heavy bullets too. Usually shoot Nosler Custom Comps (68 or 77 gr) with 24 gr Varget, LC brass and whatever primers. .5 MOA. CFE is about the same.

December 10, 2017, 12:53 PM	#22
Arbrn Rngr Member Join Date: November 15, 2017 Posts: 33	Check out Optics Planet, they have great deals on scopes. Really like the "Buckmaster" scopes...Nikon glass, very clear. Also, Nikon now makes glass for the P-223. The scope is made specifically for .223 AR's. (somehow) they have matched the glass to the .223 ballistics. I am a little confused though, if this rifle is specifically for home defense, why a scope at all??? You will get much faster target aquisition with "iron sights". If an intruder is ducking, shucking, and jiving behind walls and furniture the scope is going to be a liability, not an asset, unless of course you live in a mansion with 200 foot rooms. Best home defense is a pump-shotgun with double 00. Hell, they will run when they hear you jack a shell into the chamber.

December 10, 2017, 01:02 PM	#23
joeanybody Member Join Date: July 2, 2017 Posts: 61	Barrel on my ar is 1:9. So i dont know if it relates but i also have had good luck with blc (2).i also use cfe 223 26.7 gr using bulk bullets. Works good.

December 10, 2017, 01:04 PM	#24
Arbrn Rngr Member Join Date: November 15, 2017 Posts: 33	I shoot 77 grain Sierra TMK's from my 1:8 Bushmaster Predator, and it will group 0.25 MOA at 100 yards with a P-223 scope all day long. With a 1:7 twist and a heavier bullet, like a Nosler 80 grain HP you could deliver ALOT of ft/lbs of energy to an intruders thoracic cage....would go through that dry-wall more effectively as well!!

December 10, 2017, 11:10 PM	#25
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,283	I prefer 69to 77 gr bullets in the tighter twist barrels myself.I like shooting at 200,300 yards and farther.The heavier bullets IMO,fly better. My experience,Varget for 69 grs,RE-15 for that 75 gr Hornady. I like those bullets,and they are a bit cheaper. However...for SD purposes...First,I'm not the expert on the best choice.I'm not sure I'd listen to me! But I might use a 60 grain Varmint Ballistic tip over Benchmark. Very accurate combination that will do serious trauma,and might not penetrate the walls etc.

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