May 1, 2019, 08:21 PM | #1 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 14, 2018
Posts: 619
|
Turkish Mauser 8mmx57
I just won the bid on a 1893 German Mauser that was made for the Spanish and the Turks liked them so much they bought 200,000 + of them and then in 1936 Ankara Arms converted them to 8mmx57 and they became the M38. This is information I was able to grab off the internet and may not be entirely correct. It's not a numbers matching rifle but I still paid up for it because the seller had a lot of sales and a good reputation. The rifle shipped to my FFL today.
Buying a gun on Gun Broker is a crap shoot for sure but if this doesn't work out for what I want it for then it will make a nice wall hanger and it's kind of fun to just imagine who might have had this rifle in their hands and where it might have gone to battle. So what do I want it for you might be thinking? Well if it is a 1893 Mauser Action and the bolt is a M98 like it appears to be in the pictures then this is a probably a large thread action with a great bolt that can be blue printed and turned into one heck of a beautiful hunting rifle. I'll put a Shilen barrel on it and chamber it in 270 Weatherby Magnum because that's one I don't have. |
May 2, 2019, 12:05 AM | #2 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 13, 2006
Location: Washington state
Posts: 15,248
|
I have owned several 1893 Mausers, still own two. They are a mixed bag. The Spanish Oviedo Mausers were made in a factory in Spain under contract with Germany, and have a spotty reputation (although I have owned several and they were fine within their limitations). In 7X57 they are fine, although many were used hard and not maintained to what we would call "military standards" through the Spanish Civil War and after 1942 used primarily by the police. Some I have seen were in excellent condition, although that is much rarer these days.
There was a lot of talk about them about 10 years ago when a flock of 93s showed up that had been converted to 7.62X51 (allegedly 7.62 NATO, although many claim they were chambered for the CETME round). Either way, they were much discussed and most agreed it probably was not a great idea. I'm not sure I would buy a 93 Mauser in 8X57 myself, that is a high pressure cartridge and will definitely stress the 93 action.
__________________
Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services |
May 2, 2019, 07:47 AM | #3 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 9, 2018
Posts: 217
|
You need to find out what you bought . Spanish made 93 Mausers have nothing to do with Turkish 93's made in Germany . The Turkish rifles were not chambered in 7mm , they were made in 7.65x53 . A model 93 can not have a M-98 bolt , they are different . A Turk 93 is not a large ring . The Turks used a lot of their 93's in 8mm without stressing anything . The Germans fought WWI with their small ring 98 a's in 8mm . Now days it would cost about double to convert a 93 into a W mag over what you could just buy one for . Also I do not think the cartridge would even fit in the action or mag as they had to be lengthened just to take the 8x57 mm .
|
May 2, 2019, 08:34 AM | #4 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 18,486
|
Agree with the above.
The 1893 Mauser of any make is not Internet Rated for even .308 Win so the higher pressure and larger head diameter of the .270 Weatherby would be an even greater overload. All the military Mauser rounds are currently listed by CIP at 57000 ppsi. .308 Win at 60000, .270 Wby at 64000. The case head area of the Weatherby is 25% larger, increasing bolt thrust by that much more. So we won't even talk about squeezing the much larger Weatherby into a Mauser action Nope. |
May 2, 2019, 12:54 PM | #5 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 14, 2018
Posts: 619
|
I'm reserving any comment on any of these responses until I actually have the rifle in hand and can do the basic forensics that I need to do to make a decision as to what I will do with the rifle.
|
May 2, 2019, 06:21 PM | #6 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 14, 2018
Posts: 619
|
After some deep research, I am seeing some problems with trying to do the things I wanted to do with this rifle. While the action is likely strong enough to continue to fire 8mmx57 mil grade ammo, it is likely the two lug mauser bolt and it would not be wise to push it as far as I was thinking I might. It might make a nice .243 and I may look into that but I'm not excited about going that route. I'm currently bidding on a 98 German Mauser and if I get it for the right price, it will become my project rifle. The Turkish is kind of cool since it was from the Ottoman Empire era and has all the Arabic writing on it.
|
May 2, 2019, 08:14 PM | #7 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 2, 2007
Location: Missouri
Posts: 8,306
|
Hope you are bidding on a 98 that somebody already bubbaed up. Not a $500 rifle you are going to turn into a $200 "sporter"
__________________
Cheapshooter's rules of gun ownership #1: NEVER SELL OR TRADE ANYTHING! |
May 2, 2019, 08:33 PM | #8 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 14, 2018
Posts: 619
|
Quote:
If I get this one and if it turns out to be what it say's it is then I will have a project that will have hundreds of hours of work put into it. That's the whole point of buying it. |
|
May 3, 2019, 01:55 AM | #9 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 13, 2006
Location: Washington state
Posts: 15,248
|
243 is too much for a 93 Mauser. If you want a hot rod, get a 98 Mauser or a Remington or a Savage or a Howa or whatever, but for your own safety don't try to turn a 93 into something it's not capable of handling.
__________________
Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services |
May 3, 2019, 08:55 AM | #10 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 20, 2007
Posts: 2,437
|
Brownells has (had) an article specific to Turkish Mausers, derived from Jerry Kuhnhausen's The Mauser Bolt Actions, A Shop Manual. They advise getting the book. I did, and it's a great read for anyone interested in Mausers.
|
May 3, 2019, 09:00 AM | #11 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 18, 2005
Location: On the Santa Fe Trail
Posts: 8,209
|
I have a bubbaed M93 mauser that I turned into a .300 Savage. If I had to do it all over again I'd have walked away from that $50 rifle.
__________________
NRA Life Member |
May 3, 2019, 11:14 AM | #12 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 18,486
|
I wouldn't put a Weatherby into even a '98 Mauser, it is still a 40% overload.
I recently read about the fine rifles of the Mauser sporterizing golden years. They were mostly hunting rifles that did not get shot enough to bring out their weaknesses. Nowadays, everybody wants a target rifle or centerfire plinker they can shoot a lifetime of game loads every weekend. |
May 3, 2019, 12:18 PM | #13 |
Staff
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,675
|
If its a 93 action, I think the best round you can put in it is the 6.5x55 Swede.
Kept to its original pressure (approx. 45,000 psi) it won't stress the action, you don't have to modify the bolt face or action rails for feeding, and downrange performance is amazing considering its not a magnum or a high pressure round. Do keep in mind that "turk" isn't new, might be 100 years old, and steel heat treating in those days was done "by eye". Mauser generally did a fine job of that, some other makers, not so much. I wouldn't pay much for any milsurp Mauser, I think the prices today are barking stupid, but then I still remember the years when I bought them for $50, or sometimes half that. See what you actually got, when you get your hands on it. We'll go from there.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better. |
May 3, 2019, 12:36 PM | #14 |
Junior member
Join Date: February 2, 2010
Posts: 6,846
|
"if it is a 1893 Mauser Action and the bolt is a M98 like it appears to be in the pictures then this is a probably a large thread action"
I don't think so on either. The "real" Turkish M38's used a small ring 98 action with a handguard retainer lip on the front ring. During the last years of the "rifle building fad", I handled dozens of Mausers --93,95, 96, 98, VZ24 (my favorite), and assorted variations of those. I bought boxes of parts, sorted them into categories, assembled compatible parts, and sold the results to "builders". |
May 3, 2019, 12:57 PM | #15 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 2, 2007
Location: Missouri
Posts: 8,306
|
Quote:
If you find one that some Bubba has already had his way with, finne. But don't ruin a collectable piece of history.
__________________
Cheapshooter's rules of gun ownership #1: NEVER SELL OR TRADE ANYTHING! |
|
May 4, 2019, 12:19 AM | #16 | |
Staff
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,675
|
Quote:
I don't know if you apply the term "Bubba" to all sporterizing work, but you shouldn't. Yes, Bubba's turned a lot of guns into junk, but others turned those cheap, common as dirt surplus guns into works of art equal to anything made by the best in the technology of the day. I've had sporterized Mausers, Sprngfields, Arisakas in calibers ranging from .22-250 to .458 Win Mag. Some with bluing, metal work and wood so beautiful you would weep. you really ought to thank the memory of the guys that did that, otherwise those collectible pieces of history might be like they once were, as collectible as GI wool socks, and only slightly more valuable.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better. |
|
May 4, 2019, 09:46 AM | #17 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 2, 2007
Location: Missouri
Posts: 8,306
|
44AMP yes that is what wedid, many years ago. I still have a very nice 6MM Remington built on a K98 action I bought inthe late 60's/early 70's. Butit was theaction I started with,nota complete intact Mauser. Idid have another 98 still in 8X57 that started out as one of those numerous military surplus rifles. Done by an excellent smith, it too was a very nice rifle. But not worth the thousand dollar plus it would get now as the unfired K98 Mauser with no import marks it was.
What I was saying is if it's already been sporterized, have at it. But intact Mausers, especially a true German K98 are indeed collectable, and worth preserving.
__________________
Cheapshooter's rules of gun ownership #1: NEVER SELL OR TRADE ANYTHING! |
May 4, 2019, 10:14 AM | #18 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 14, 2018
Posts: 619
|
Actually, I'm talking about the Gew. 98. A Kale is a little harder to come by. A lot of people don't realize that the Springfield was a copy of the 98 and was chambered in 30-06. It was such a good copy that Paul Mauser sued over it and won.
The Mauser action has been sporterized for years and some of the best rifle makers still use it today. Roy Weatherby used it in the early years until he found out that guys were creating some really hot loads for his cartridges. He redesigned his actions and it was the 5th Version (Mark V) that he settled on. FN Mauser who was producing the current production Mauser actions for Weatherby said they couldn't make the Mark V but Sauer and Sohn's took on the project and produced it. The difference in the M98 actions and previous Mauser actions are many but the most prominent identifiable feature is the addition of the third locking lug. This particular Turkish rifle is the same as the one that Mauser produced for the Spanish (as in Spain). The Turks ordered some 200,000 + from Mauser. It is not a 3 lug Mauser action. With this particular rifle, sometime around 1936 Ankara rechambered it to 8mm x 57 which is a formidable round. Some were just rechambered leaving the original 29" barrel on them and others were re-barreled with a shorter barrel. As to the tempering of the actions. All the tempering was done by trained eyes and some would argue that since these are alloy metals, each one was different to some degree. The trained eye of a skilled smith were better at tempering than any automated form could ever be. I personally have no problem trusting that they were tempered correctly. Regardless, since this rifle that I have yet to receive is most likely not going to be a good candidate for sporterizing. It will find it's retirement home somewhere on a wall in my house, with it's firing pin removed of course. |
May 4, 2019, 10:38 AM | #19 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 18,486
|
Quote:
Quote:
One of the Mauser experts can relate cases of their eyeball heat treat guns failing proof or failing in service, too. Some of the features we were too smart to copy make the Mauser a less dangerous gun when it does fail. Quote:
|
|||
May 4, 2019, 10:53 AM | #20 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 9, 2018
Posts: 217
|
You really have no idea what you are talking about . There was no lawsuit over the M-1903 design by Mauser , just the stripper clip . A Gew-98 is a very collectible rifle . FN produced the same M-98 design as Mauser , they were licensed by the German company . The Turk rifles were not "just rechambered to 8mm " with the original barrels . You can not just rechamber a 7.65 barrel to 8mm . The barrels were new made 8mm from the Czechs . You do not understand how rifles are made , what would have to be modified , the cost , the actions , pressures , bolt thrust , feed rails and ramps . Or even that the firing pin is what holds the whole bolt together on a Mauser .But you do know more than others and will do what ever you are going to do , so trying to explain things to you is a waste of time .
|
May 4, 2019, 11:28 AM | #21 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 14, 2018
Posts: 619
|
Rather Sarcastic don't you think. I admit I don't know it all yet but I will and from what I've already learned I feel you may have been mislead by some inaccurate information. I try hard to fact check my info before I post it but sometimes it returns a false positive so this could be what you've come up against also.
|
May 4, 2019, 04:30 PM | #22 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 18, 2008
Posts: 7,249
|
I believe I have sold 35 Turkish Mausers in the last year. None of them were 93s. I sold 2 more last weak. I would not hesitate to remove the barrel and replace it with a 270W, 30/06, 308W. Most of the Turks I sold were large ring/small shank rifles. I have friends that have purchased the M38 Turks by the 100s for the purpose of cleaning then up and turning them into custom type rifles. many of them became 35 Whelens.
And then there was the 1893 Turks with the notch in the rear of the receiver ring. There was a limit as to how big they would chamber them. They did good work because no one ever noticed the notch was filled. https://www.turkmauser.com/1938/ F. Guffey |
May 4, 2019, 04:46 PM | #23 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: July 18, 2008
Posts: 7,249
|
Quote:
Quote:
A lot of people? the Springfield receiver ring was the same diameter as the small ring MAUSER, A lot of people? The 03 had a barrel with a large shank. How large? The shank on the 03 was larger in diameter than the shank on the 98 Mauser. When I ask a lot of people; "WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?" They do not have a clue, but the 03 receiver ring was thinner than the small ring Mauser. And then the Muasers made another Mauser, it had a small ring with a large shank, I was told not to shoot one because I could blow my tail gage off, SO? I chambered it to 8MM06. And then I said that rifle could be shot by moving the trigger back and or forward. F. Guffey |
||
May 4, 2019, 04:56 PM | #24 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 18, 2008
Posts: 7,249
|
Quote:
F. Guffey |
|
May 4, 2019, 05:07 PM | #25 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 18,486
|
The Mauser lawsuit seems to have covered some other stuff besides clips.
Patent Infringements for which Royalties were paid: •467180 , Shell Extractor 20 cents per arm •477671, Shell Extractor & Collar 5cents per each arm. •482376, Clips, (called cartridge holder for magazine guns) 50 cents per thousand clips •527869, Oct, 1894 , Magazine 25 Cents per each arm. •547932, Clip (called cartridge pack) 50 cents per thousand clips. •547933, Safety, covered by 590271 •590271, Sept, 1897 25 cents per each arm Seen at https://www.thehighroad.org/index.ph...t-they.678849/ |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|