Using a police simulator to train civilians - Page 2

Gaerek · June 4, 2013, 09:30 AM

Quote:

I'd appreciate it if you could find the name of that system!

Unfortunately, I don't remember the name of the system. I haven't been to that range in a while either. I remember that the "light" gun was basically a Glock copy (would fit Glock holsters), but the name eludes me at the moment. I also think he may have been exaggerating on the price too, because most systems I've looked up online are in the $2500 range and up.

deepcreek · June 4, 2013, 11:04 AM

Quote:

You would need a full background check before teaching civilians our tactics ... hate to be the one who first teaches and trains a gangbanger or mafia hit man, mentally disturbed or a wanted person police tactics... That would not be good.

"police tactics" are pretty crude and simple certainly not a gem to be hidden from the public.

I train with cops(along with others) and they are always talking about how lazy and poorly trained the people they work with are and how they only do stuff once a year to qualify. We usually train 4-10 hours a week sweat drenched training.

LewSchiller · June 4, 2013, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Unfortunately, I don't remember the name of the system. I haven't been to that range in a while either. I remember that the "light" gun was basically a Glock copy (would fit Glock holsters), but the name eludes me at the moment. I also think he may have been exaggerating on the price too, because most systems I've looked up online are in the $2500 range and up.

I'm familiar with that Glock or at least I tried a Glock that was fit for laser. It had a CO2 system that simulated recoil.
As for the system price, yeah, the sophisticated scenario systems I've seen are 5 figures. That's why low 4 figures caught my eye :-)

BuckRub · June 4, 2013, 01:53 PM

I guess training more might be better. I live and work in a small town as a Leo. Though we only qualify once a year, we work alone and knowing if you need it backup is a out 15-30 minutes out and that's a trooper or neighboring town to help out. So training is basically down the drain. Every stop is different, you handle them different and with your safety always #1. On stops or calls that get out of hand it's you're fixing to do this or get the crap beat out of you, then go to jail. There's no other option you got. There's no simulator that really teaches you stuff other than draw, not draw or shoot. That's when bad goes to worse. As far as it goes its mostly keeping individuals calm, smooth talking , getting down and dirty or drawing. Simulators are only those moments people train and probably (hopefully) wont ever need but I guess some people feel they now have superior training. Go on rides alongs you'll probably get more training. ESP in rural areas when a cop handles everything by himself call after call. We got three miles of interstate, that'd where I spent the last year on nights and weekends by myself, you'll surely get trained!!!

armoredman · June 4, 2013, 02:10 PM

Quote:

You would need a full background check before teaching civilians our tactics ... hate to be the one who first teaches and trains a gangbanger or mafia hit man, mentally disturbed or a wanted person police tactics... That would not be good.

That's...funny. I have qualified AZ POST for 11 years. Even the new POST course is a far cry from anything that deals with reality. I would have to say you don't want to teach your tactics to a thug, (who doesn't care enough to take a class - the only trained thugs we are dealing with now are ex military gang bangers due to relaxed enlisting standards), from a liability standpoint as a private instructor, and I can understand and honor that, but regular POST training ain't all that special.
Simulators are a good training aid, when you can get to one. AT only had one that toured the country year 'round to every branch. That was a long time ago, and I'm certain the newer systems are far more advanced and interesting.

Ben Towe · June 4, 2013, 02:26 PM

I used one of the military video simulators several years ago (about 1997 or so) and it used reactive actual footage and M16s hooked to pneumatics so they actually functioned and recoiled. It was extremely realistic. It was at a big Army or Marine Corps booth at an outdoors show. I was just a kid but it struck me as really good training tool.

Gaerek · June 4, 2013, 09:37 PM

Quote:

I'm familiar with that Glock or at least I tried a Glock that was fit for laser. It had a CO2 system that simulated recoil.
As for the system price, yeah, the sophisticated scenario systems I've seen are 5 figures. That's why low 4 figures caught my eye :-)

Different system. The gun was really cheap. No CO2 or anything like that. The system was basically an off the shelf projector, an off the shelf Windows computer, an off the shelf projector screen, then the proprietary camera (to sense hits), the "light gun", and the software. I can't imagine the system being that expensive, since the setup wasn't elaborate. But I think the $1k mark might have been a little low.

c.j. · June 5, 2013, 03:50 PM

Got to try FATS a while back, and more recently a MILO system. The MILO setup was nice as they'd been able to make their own (local PD) videos and integrate them into the system, so it was possible to set up scenarios in local settings. There were also plenty of other shoot/don't shoot situations, and as others mentioned, a controller has the ability to branch the scenario off depending on the participant's response (or pure evilness, such as the scenario where they had a mother suddenly decide that she'd rather shoot her kids rather than let the state take them).

But there were other fun ones...games for engaging multiple targets, shooting milk jugs out of the air, normal range qualifier settings, steel simulations, and even just rooms full of targets to clear. Rather expensive, but we were able to run all kinds of scenarios that would be difficult to try in other days.

tws92E05 · June 5, 2013, 07:48 PM

In our department we sometimes use this simulator in a shoot don't shoot scenario. Manly for our officers but we will sometimes take it out and have civilians go through the same thing. It is not for training a civilian to use police tactics it is to show civilians how you do not always have time to evaluate a situation, other than on face value at that split second. Sometimes you have to react in a split second whether it is right or wrong and then justify why you made the decision. We used this once with the news media and had them run through it. We ended up having to transport one by ambulance due to elavated heart rate due to the perceived threat and their reaction to the threat.

It is only training you in police tactics if you are viewing it that way. It is more designed to train you into evaluting the entire scenario and not getting tunnel vision into one thing going on in that scenario and reacting to it.

FireForged · June 7, 2013, 05:40 PM

I think most people with common sense can extrapolate. Making complex mental decisions as to when to confront danger is not part of muscle memory or something you do by accident. If a LEO who retires after 25 years can conduct themselves as average joes in society.. I don't think a few hours in a simulator is going to damage anyone's sensibilities. I would be more inclined to worry about airsofters LOL!

June 4, 2013, 02:26 PM	#31
Ben Towe Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2009 Location: Middle Tennessee Posts: 1,128	I used one of the military video simulators several years ago (about 1997 or so) and it used reactive actual footage and M16s hooked to pneumatics so they actually functioned and recoiled. It was extremely realistic. It was at a big Army or Marine Corps booth at an outdoors show. I was just a kid but it struck me as really good training tool. __________________ 'Merica: Back to back World War Champs

June 7, 2013, 05:40 PM	#35
FireForged Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 1999 Location: Rebel South USA Posts: 2,074	I think most people with common sense can extrapolate. Making complex mental decisions as to when to confront danger is not part of muscle memory or something you do by accident. If a LEO who retires after 25 years can conduct themselves as average joes in society.. I don't think a few hours in a simulator is going to damage anyone's sensibilities. I would be more inclined to worry about airsofters LOL! __________________ Life is a web woven by necessity and chance... Last edited by FireForged; June 7, 2013 at 06:01 PM.

June 4, 2013, 01:53 PM	#29
BuckRub Junior member Join Date: October 3, 2012 Location: Central Texas Posts: 1,046	I guess training more might be better. I live and work in a small town as a Leo. Though we only qualify once a year, we work alone and knowing if you need it backup is a out 15-30 minutes out and that's a trooper or neighboring town to help out. So training is basically down the drain. Every stop is different, you handle them different and with your safety always #1. On stops or calls that get out of hand it's you're fixing to do this or get the crap beat out of you, then go to jail. There's no other option you got. There's no simulator that really teaches you stuff other than draw, not draw or shoot. That's when bad goes to worse. As far as it goes its mostly keeping individuals calm, smooth talking , getting down and dirty or drawing. Simulators are only those moments people train and probably (hopefully) wont ever need but I guess some people feel they now have superior training. Go on rides alongs you'll probably get more training. ESP in rural areas when a cop handles everything by himself call after call. We got three miles of interstate, that'd where I spent the last year on nights and weekends by myself, you'll surely get trained!!!

June 5, 2013, 03:50 PM	#33
c.j. Member Join Date: July 8, 2011 Posts: 18	Got to try FATS a while back, and more recently a MILO system. The MILO setup was nice as they'd been able to make their own (local PD) videos and integrate them into the system, so it was possible to set up scenarios in local settings. There were also plenty of other shoot/don't shoot situations, and as others mentioned, a controller has the ability to branch the scenario off depending on the participant's response (or pure evilness, such as the scenario where they had a mother suddenly decide that she'd rather shoot her kids rather than let the state take them). But there were other fun ones...games for engaging multiple targets, shooting milk jugs out of the air, normal range qualifier settings, steel simulations, and even just rooms full of targets to clear. Rather expensive, but we were able to run all kinds of scenarios that would be difficult to try in other days.

June 5, 2013, 07:48 PM	#34
tws92E05 Member Join Date: September 17, 2011 Location: Texas Posts: 40	In our department we sometimes use this simulator in a shoot don't shoot scenario. Manly for our officers but we will sometimes take it out and have civilians go through the same thing. It is not for training a civilian to use police tactics it is to show civilians how you do not always have time to evaluate a situation, other than on face value at that split second. Sometimes you have to react in a split second whether it is right or wrong and then justify why you made the decision. We used this once with the news media and had them run through it. We ended up having to transport one by ambulance due to elavated heart rate due to the perceived threat and their reaction to the threat. It is only training you in police tactics if you are viewing it that way. It is more designed to train you into evaluting the entire scenario and not getting tunnel vision into one thing going on in that scenario and reacting to it.