Another victim of an "unloaded" firearm

jimpeel · September 16, 2012, 01:25 AM

This is always sad. I ALWAYS warn those I teach firearms handling that there is an order to the universe of automatic firearms. Drop the magazine THEN jack the slide. The reverse order can, and likely will, kill you or someone around you.

The other rule is never point a firearm at anything you are not willing and ready to destroy -- even if it is "empty."

SOURCE

Quote:

Former West Point football player dies in accidental shooting at Connecticut home

Published September 15, 2012

FoxNews.com

...

Dixon died shortly after 7 p.m. Thursday when he accidentally shot himself in the head with his .45 caliber semi-automatic pistol, according to local reports. Dixon was showing his gun to two friends at an apartment in Stamford at the time of the incident. He had removed the magazine from the pistol and, thinking it was empty, tried to show the gun was safe by pointing it toward his head and pulling the trigger, the newspaper reported. One round was hidden in the gun's chamber.

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4runnerman · September 16, 2012, 02:32 AM

Sad as it is This was not what i call a accident. This was stupidity all the way. First in not checking the barrel,second in pointing it at his head . All to show it was empty.

I think the only thing empty was his head. Im sorry for his wife and kids.

I should not even post this,but this is the kind of stuff the Anti Gunners are looking for.

jimpeel · September 16, 2012, 02:45 AM

There are three rulings on accidental death.

The first is "Accidental death" which means that you were killed without any action on your part ie: you were not in any way instrumental in your demise.

Example: He was killed by a bullet fired in another room by a another party which went through a wall and struck him.

The second is "Death by accidental means" which is a ruling that you were complicit, or instrumental, in causing your own death.

Example: What he did.

The third is "Death by misadventure" which is again a ruling that you were complicit in your death by doing something that you knew, or should have known, could cause your death.

Example: Playing Russian roulette where you know that a live round could come into battery.

The ruling in this case will be "Death by accidental means."

Double Naught Spy · September 16, 2012, 07:35 AM

It may have been an accidental death (legal ruling), but it was an negligent discharge, based not on an empty gun, but irresponsible actions. No moron goes to prove the parking brake is on by putting his kid under the wheels and stamping on the accelerator, so why put a gun to your head and pull the trigger?

The round was hidden in the chamber? I didn't know they could do that. Were there others in there as well?

Glenn E. Meyer · September 16, 2012, 10:46 AM

22 years old - not know for rational impulse control in some circumstances. Males posture and things like this happen.

walts · September 16, 2012, 10:51 AM

Why do people feel the need to demonstrate a gun is unloaded by putting their gun to their head and pulling the trigger? This is not the first death I've seen where someone has done this. I'm sorry for the loss the family needs to deal with but this was just stupid.

Brian Pfleuger · September 16, 2012, 10:56 AM

I'm stunned by the frequency with which this exact event plays out. It is beyond my imagination how someone, anyone, could do this to themselves.
I hesitate to look down a barrel that's not even connected to a gun, such as for cleaning purposes.
I can not imagine pointing an assembled gun at myself or any other innocent person no matter how certain I was that it was unloaded.
I don't understand how that fear isn't "inbuilt". I know I've had it since I was much younger than 22. I can remember cleaning guns as a teenager and I'd have the barrel from a shotgun, gun completely disassembled, nothing even connected to the barrel, and I'd flinch when I went to look down the barrel.
This is beyond my comprehension.

thedudeabides · September 16, 2012, 11:05 AM

Just don't point guns, loaded or unloaded, at people you don't want to shoot.

Easy as that.

AmericanWolverine · September 16, 2012, 12:11 PM

Stupidity thins the herd

I'm sorry but the guy was a full-blown idiot

David White · September 16, 2012, 12:13 PM

For those who may not have seen Jeff Cooper's Four Rules, they are:

1) All guns are always loaded.

2) Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.

3) Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.

4) Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

Suggestion: Copy these rules to a card for your wallet and read them every chance you have.

Romeo 33 Delta · September 16, 2012, 01:36 PM

The former Fond du Lac, Wisconsin Chief of Police (presently involved with firearms instruction/saftey with the DOJ in Madison, WI) recently shot himself while cleaning his pistol ... what more can you say?

P5 Guy · September 16, 2012, 01:56 PM

Quote:

. One round was hidden in the gun's chamber.

This proves that Cooper is right, all guns are loaded. And those dang sneaky bullets can be anywhere.
I fell sorry for his family and loved one, for him, not so much.

manta49 · September 16, 2012, 02:04 PM

Quote Today, 10:56 AM #7
Brian Pfleuger
I'm stunned by the frequency with which this exact event plays out. It is beyond my imagination how someone, anyone, could do this to themselves.

The advice given buy most on this forum is carry with a round in the chamber. Without knowing the abilities of the people they are advising. You get the usual stupid comments a unloaded gun is a paper weight ect.
Did he really need to have the round in the chamber. Carry with a round in the chamber but don't be surprised when things like this happen.

Remember not everyone is as expert as and sensible as the people on this forum.
PS Obviously putting the gun to your head to prove its not loaded is not a good idea. But other people have shot them selves thinking a gun was unloaded. Like the DEA expert on youtube.

Brian Pfleuger · September 16, 2012, 02:14 PM

If you intentionally put a gun to your head and intentionally pull the trigger, the dangerous part was not the fact that the gun was carried loaded.
The vast, vast majority of guns are designed to be safely handled with a loaded chamber.
That's like saying that when a parent leaves their baby in a hot car it would have been safer if the car didn't have windows so it didn't get hot inside.
Misplaced blame. Loaded guns aren't the problem, stupid is the problem.
Besides, we have no idea if this guy carried the gun loaded or even carried it at all, so far as I can tell.

Colorado Redneck · September 16, 2012, 02:15 PM

Have posted before about an aquaintance that was a medic in Veitnam, had been an avid shooter all of his adult life, owned and shot many handguns. Cleaning his semiauto one evening in the garage he ejected the clip and worked that action sevral times. Satisfied the chamber was empty he went to disassamble the gun and shot himself in the hand. $30,000 later that paw will never be the same. He cursed himself for that lapse---he said he ALWAYS checks the chamber with his little finger, but this time he didn't.

Stuff happens, and sometimes it is not smart stuff. Other times it is "accidental." As gun folk, we do deal with dangerous equipment. Brian P. posted about his apprehension of even looking down a gun barrel that is detached. I know why. Somebody taught him that is a good way to get shot. If you are never on the business end of a gun, it can't shoot you. My dad ate my butt several times, and like Brian, it makes me jittery to look down the muzzle of any gun.

manta49 · September 16, 2012, 02:49 PM

Quote. Brian Pfleuger . The vast, vast majority of guns are designed to be safely handled with a loaded chamber.

Something being designed to be used safely is good but you have to take into account they are used buy human beings.
Power tools are designed to be used safely but that doesn't stop the emergency departments being full of people armatures and professionals that have cut parts of their bodies ect.

Some situations its definitely a good idea to have a round in the chamber but i don't think in every situation. Did a expert navy seal not do something similar a while back.

Shotgun693 · September 16, 2012, 03:09 PM

After learning of the game 'Russia Roulette', a teen on the South side of San Antonio decided to try the game with his friends. Not having a revolver handy he used an auto. The results were fatal.

**Aguila Blanca** · September 16, 2012, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by manta49

The advice given buy most on this forum is carry with a round in the chamber. Without knowing the abilities of the people they are advising. You get the usual stupid comments a unloaded gun is a paper weight ect.
Did he really need to have the round in the chamber. Carry with a round in the chamber but don't be surprised when things like this happen.

Remember not everyone is as expert as and sensible as the people on this forum.
PS Obviously putting the gun to your head to prove its not loaded is not a good idea. But other people have shot them selves thinking a gun was unloaded. Like the DEA expert on youtube.

Sir, with all due respect, your bias and your ignorance are showing.

Point One: It does not matter if he "needed" to have a round in the chamber. Firearms safety protocol mandates that a firearm be cleared before handling for any purpose other than firing it. Clearing for a semi-automatic includes removing the magazine, then racking the slide to eject any round that may be "hiding" in the chamber, and then physically looking into the chamber to verify that you got that last sneaky little devil out of the chamber. Even after all that, you simply do NOT point the firearm at anyone (yourself or any other person) and pull the trigger.

Point Two: One does not need to be an "expert" to practice firearms safety. This guy attended West Point. That's the United States (ARMY) Military Academy. They shoot guns at West Point. I am absolutely certain that they teach weapons safety to their cadets. Basic weapons safety includes "Don't point a gun at your head and pull the trigger." In addition, he was in Connecticut. Connecticut has required possession of either a pistol carry permit or a "Certificate of Eligibility" before buying a handgun for at least two or three decades (in other words, for MUCH longer than this guy had been of age to buy or legally possess a handgun). In order to obtain either, an applicant must complete a minimum one-day course in handgun safety. The usual such course is the NRA "Basic Pistol" course. Since I am certified to teach that course, I know very well that it includes such things as not pointing a gun at your head and pulling the trigger.

The incident is extremely unfortunate, but no matter how you analyze it or parse it, the bottom line is that he shot himself because he ignored multiple of the basic rules of firearms safety. Your trying to suggest that this wouldn't have happened if he didn't have a round in the chamber is a complete and total non sequitur, or what we here in the States call a "red herring."

How many of the rules did he violate? The NRA has three basic rules and nine or ten supplementary rules. Personally, I prefer Cooper's four, so let's go with that. They were stated in an earlier post:

Quote:

1) All guns are always loaded.
If he had handled the pistol as if it was loaded, he would not have done what he did. Fail #1

2) Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
Unless we are to accept that he was willing to destroy his own head, Fail #2

3) Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
He didn't have a target, and he couldn't see the sights with the gun pointed at his own head anyway. Since it is unlikely he intended for his own head to be the target, Fail #3

4) Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.
Again, any time you pull the trigger on a firearm there is an implicit assumption that a bullet may (and probably will) strike something. Again assuming that he didn't intend for his own head to be a target, he was NOT sure of his target when he pulled the trigger. Fail #4

Well, lookie there. Not even a trifecta, but a perfect four-for-four. I would have to say that even most people who experience negligent discharges probably don't manage to violate ALL FOUR rules in one incident.

dos0711 · September 16, 2012, 03:52 PM

The simple truth is he didn't follow the safety rules for firearms.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FIREARM SAFETY RULES

The rules of gun safety follow from this mindset. There are many variations, and one of them is the Four Rules introduced by Colonel Jeff Cooper, which are:

All guns are always loaded.

Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.

Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.

Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

manta49 · September 16, 2012, 04:25 PM

Quote Aguila Blanca. Sir, with all due respect, your bias and your ignorance are showing.

With all due respect you are showing your naivety if you think you can make rules and expect people to follow them. In your world their would be no accidents because there are rules and of course everyone will follow them.

Most advice on this forum is carry one in the chamber. Usually without any knowledge of the abilities ect of the person receiving the advice.

I don't need you to quote me firearms safety rules i am well aware of them.

PS What i said in a erlier post. Some situations its definitely a good idea to have a round in the chamber but i don't think in every situation.
Some people make a judgment on the risk they feel the area they are in ect when deciding if to carry with one in the chamber.

Brian Pfleuger · September 16, 2012, 04:31 PM

Easy, gentlemen.

No rules with prevent all accidents. Only wisdom does that.

Expecting another rule, don't carry a chambered round, to do it is just as silly as thinking the rules we already have will "protect" people.

The rules, or more rules, don't protect people. FOLLOWING them protects people. Adding more doesn't make them easier to follow.

jimbob86 · September 16, 2012, 04:39 PM

Violations of Rules #1,2,3 and 4. What do you suppose would happen?

jimbob86 · September 16, 2012, 04:43 PM

Quote:

No rules (will?) prevent all accidents. Only wisdom does that.

All the rules in the world won't help if the user hasn't the wisdom to follow them.

Show me a case where The Four Rules were followed and an accident still happened that injured someone or even did damage to property. Unpossible.

THORN74 · September 16, 2012, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimpeel

This is always sad. I ALWAYS warn those I teach firearms handling that there is an order to the universe of automatic firearms. Drop the magazine THEN jack the slide. The reverse order can, and likely will, kill you or someone around you.

The other rule is never point a firearm at anything you are not willing and ready to destroy -- even if it is "empty."

SOURCE

I was always taught the opposite... rack slide then drop mag .... if u rack the slide on an empty mag it will lock the slide. Then drop the mag ...

If you rack the slide and it doesn't stay locked back .... IT IS LOADED!!!!

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

Brian Pfleuger · September 16, 2012, 04:59 PM

That's definitely backwards.

If the gun is loaded and you rack the slide, of course it's still loaded. Are you going to keep racking the slide through the whole magazine?

Drop the magazine, rack the slide. You know there CAN'T be more than the one round in the gun. Racking the slide now, you see and hear and possibly catch the only round that could POSSIBLY be in the gun.

Rack the slide again and manually engage the slide lock. It should be impossible for any rounds to remain. Still, you visually and tactilely (pinky) verify empty chamber.

You have now TRIPLE verified an empty gun, which you continue to treat as if it's loaded.

Racking on a magazine is a bad habit for a few reasons, not the least of which is that not all guns lock back on an empty magazine.

September 16, 2012, 10:46 AM	#5
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	22 years old - not know for rational impulse control in some circumstances. Males posture and things like this happen. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

September 16, 2012, 02:15 PM	#15
Colorado Redneck Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2008 Location: Northeast Colorado Posts: 1,993	Attention Lapse Have posted before about an aquaintance that was a medic in Veitnam, had been an avid shooter all of his adult life, owned and shot many handguns. Cleaning his semiauto one evening in the garage he ejected the clip and worked that action sevral times. Satisfied the chamber was empty he went to disassamble the gun and shot himself in the hand. $30,000 later that paw will never be the same. He cursed himself for that lapse---he said he ALWAYS checks the chamber with his little finger, but this time he didn't. Stuff happens, and sometimes it is not smart stuff. Other times it is "accidental." As gun folk, we do deal with dangerous equipment. Brian P. posted about his apprehension of even looking down a gun barrel that is detached. I know why. Somebody taught him that is a good way to get shot. If you are never on the business end of a gun, it can't shoot you. My dad ate my butt several times, and like Brian, it makes me jittery to look down the muzzle of any gun.

September 16, 2012, 02:49 PM	#16
manta49 Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2011 Location: N Ireland. UK. Posts: 1,809	Quote. Brian Pfleuger . The vast, vast majority of guns are designed to be safely handled with a loaded chamber. Something being designed to be used safely is good but you have to take into account they are used buy human beings. Power tools are designed to be used safely but that doesn't stop the emergency departments being full of people armatures and professionals that have cut parts of their bodies ect. Some situations its definitely a good idea to have a round in the chamber but i don't think in every situation. Did a expert navy seal not do something similar a while back. Last edited by manta49; September 16, 2012 at 03:07 PM.

September 16, 2012, 04:25 PM	#20
manta49 Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2011 Location: N Ireland. UK. Posts: 1,809	Quote Aguila Blanca. Sir, with all due respect, your bias and your ignorance are showing. With all due respect you are showing your naivety if you think you can make rules and expect people to follow them. In your world their would be no accidents because there are rules and of course everyone will follow them. Most advice on this forum is carry one in the chamber. Usually without any knowledge of the abilities ect of the person receiving the advice. I don't need you to quote me firearms safety rules i am well aware of them. PS What i said in a erlier post. Some situations its definitely a good idea to have a round in the chamber but i don't think in every situation. Some people make a judgment on the risk they feel the area they are in ect when deciding if to carry with one in the chamber. Last edited by manta49; September 16, 2012 at 04:38 PM.

September 16, 2012, 02:32 AM	#2
4runnerman Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,577	Sad as it is This was not what i call a accident. This was stupidity all the way. First in not checking the barrel,second in pointing it at his head . All to show it was empty. I think the only thing empty was his head. Im sorry for his wife and kids. I should not even post this,but this is the kind of stuff the Anti Gunners are looking for. __________________ NRA Certified RSO NwCP- Performance Isn't Optional

September 16, 2012, 02:45 AM	#3
jimpeel Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 1999 Location: Longmont, CO, USA Posts: 4,530	There are three rulings on accidental death. The first is "Accidental death" which means that you were killed without any action on your part ie: you were not in any way instrumental in your demise. Example: He was killed by a bullet fired in another room by a another party which went through a wall and struck him. The second is "Death by accidental means" which is a ruling that you were complicit, or instrumental, in causing your own death. Example: What he did. The third is "Death by misadventure" which is again a ruling that you were complicit in your death by doing something that you knew, or should have known, could cause your death. Example: Playing Russian roulette where you know that a live round could come into battery. The ruling in this case will be "Death by accidental means." __________________ Gun Control: The premise that a woman found in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is morally superior to allowing that same woman to defend her life with a firearm. "Science is built up with facts, as a house is with stones. But a collection of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house." - Jules Henri Poincare "Three thousand people died on Sept. 11 because eight pilots were killed" -- former Northwest Airlines pilot Stephen Luckey

September 16, 2012, 07:35 AM	#4
Double Naught Spy Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX Posts: 12,717	It may have been an accidental death (legal ruling), but it was an negligent discharge, based not on an empty gun, but irresponsible actions. No moron goes to prove the parking brake is on by putting his kid under the wheels and stamping on the accelerator, so why put a gun to your head and pull the trigger? The round was hidden in the chamber? I didn't know they could do that. Were there others in there as well? __________________ "If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange

September 16, 2012, 10:51 AM	#6
walts Member Join Date: July 14, 2012 Posts: 29	Why do people feel the need to demonstrate a gun is unloaded by putting their gun to their head and pulling the trigger? This is not the first death I've seen where someone has done this. I'm sorry for the loss the family needs to deal with but this was just stupid.

September 16, 2012, 10:56 AM	#7
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	I'm stunned by the frequency with which this exact event plays out. It is beyond my imagination how someone, anyone, could do this to themselves. I hesitate to look down a barrel that's not even connected to a gun, such as for cleaning purposes. I can not imagine pointing an assembled gun at myself or any other innocent person no matter how certain I was that it was unloaded. I don't understand how that fear isn't "inbuilt". I know I've had it since I was much younger than 22. I can remember cleaning guns as a teenager and I'd have the barrel from a shotgun, gun completely disassembled, nothing even connected to the barrel, and I'd flinch when I went to look down the barrel. This is beyond my comprehension.

September 16, 2012, 11:05 AM	#8
thedudeabides Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2012 Posts: 1,031	Just don't point guns, loaded or unloaded, at people you don't want to shoot. Easy as that.

September 16, 2012, 12:11 PM	#9
AmericanWolverine Junior member Join Date: July 5, 2012 Posts: 18	Stupidity thins the herd I'm sorry but the guy was a full-blown idiot

September 16, 2012, 12:13 PM	#10
David White Member Join Date: September 15, 2012 Posts: 88	For those who may not have seen Jeff Cooper's Four Rules, they are: 1) All guns are always loaded. 2) Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. 3) Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target. 4) Be sure of your target and what is beyond it. Suggestion: Copy these rules to a card for your wallet and read them every chance you have.

September 16, 2012, 01:36 PM	#11
Romeo 33 Delta Senior Member Join Date: March 27, 2009 Posts: 315	The former Fond du Lac, Wisconsin Chief of Police (presently involved with firearms instruction/saftey with the DOJ in Madison, WI) recently shot himself while cleaning his pistol ... what more can you say?

September 16, 2012, 02:04 PM	#13
manta49 Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2011 Location: N Ireland. UK. Posts: 1,809	Quote Today, 10:56 AM #7 Brian Pfleuger I'm stunned by the frequency with which this exact event plays out. It is beyond my imagination how someone, anyone, could do this to themselves. The advice given buy most on this forum is carry with a round in the chamber. Without knowing the abilities of the people they are advising. You get the usual stupid comments a unloaded gun is a paper weight ect. Did he really need to have the round in the chamber. Carry with a round in the chamber but don't be surprised when things like this happen. Remember not everyone is as expert as and sensible as the people on this forum. PS Obviously putting the gun to your head to prove its not loaded is not a good idea. But other people have shot them selves thinking a gun was unloaded. Like the DEA expert on youtube.

September 16, 2012, 02:14 PM	#14
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	If you intentionally put a gun to your head and intentionally pull the trigger, the dangerous part was not the fact that the gun was carried loaded. The vast, vast majority of guns are designed to be safely handled with a loaded chamber. That's like saying that when a parent leaves their baby in a hot car it would have been safer if the car didn't have windows so it didn't get hot inside. Misplaced blame. Loaded guns aren't the problem, stupid is the problem. Besides, we have no idea if this guy carried the gun loaded or even carried it at all, so far as I can tell.

September 16, 2012, 03:09 PM	#17
Shotgun693 Senior Member Join Date: September 3, 2011 Location: Poteet, Texas Posts: 959	After learning of the game 'Russia Roulette', a teen on the South side of San Antonio decided to try the game with his friends. Not having a revolver handy he used an auto. The results were fatal.

September 16, 2012, 04:31 PM	#21
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	Easy, gentlemen. No rules with prevent all accidents. Only wisdom does that. Expecting another rule, don't carry a chambered round, to do it is just as silly as thinking the rules we already have will "protect" people. The rules, or more rules, don't protect people. FOLLOWING them protects people. Adding more doesn't make them easier to follow.

September 16, 2012, 04:39 PM	#22
jimbob86 Junior member Join Date: October 4, 2007 Location: All the way to NEBRASKA Posts: 8,722	Violations of Rules #1,2,3 and 4. What do you suppose would happen?

September 16, 2012, 04:59 PM	#25
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	That's definitely backwards. If the gun is loaded and you rack the slide, of course it's still loaded. Are you going to keep racking the slide through the whole magazine? Drop the magazine, rack the slide. You know there CAN'T be more than the one round in the gun. Racking the slide now, you see and hear and possibly catch the only round that could POSSIBLY be in the gun. Rack the slide again and manually engage the slide lock. It should be impossible for any rounds to remain. Still, you visually and tactilely (pinky) verify empty chamber. You have now TRIPLE verified an empty gun, which you continue to treat as if it's loaded. Racking on a magazine is a bad habit for a few reasons, not the least of which is that not all guns lock back on an empty magazine.