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April 6, 2009, 04:27 PM | #51 | ||
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My point being that in the case of Jiverly Wong, it would have been an easy one to prevent and more than a dozen people would be alive today if this guy had been deported just as soon as he demonstrated that he wouldn't/couldn't integrate. That was a long time ago.
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April 6, 2009, 04:30 PM | #52 | |
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April 6, 2009, 04:43 PM | #53 | |
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April 6, 2009, 04:54 PM | #54 |
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Seung-Hui Cho; another example of a troubled individual who gave all sorts of clues that he was unstable and could have simply had his green card revoked, possibly saving the lives of 32 people. Again; my point is not that these people are the root cause, but rather that it would have been fairly easy to prevent the crimes they committed.
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April 6, 2009, 05:19 PM | #55 |
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This thread is starting to wander far afield.
Supreme Court decisions about religion, meanderings about immigrants when we have plenty of "American" shooters - the majority of them! So it needs to get back on track to legit analysis rather than spouting off political opinions without validity. As I said before - most of these cases fit a classic profile that has little to do with those factors. I could easily say deport social conservatives as we had a couple of them go rampage lately - or is it because of an underlying pathology? Geez.
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April 6, 2009, 06:03 PM | #56 |
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There is some excellent discussion going on here, recent tangential points notwithstanding.
I think most of us would agree that a properly naturalized citizen, whether fully integrated or not, does not represent a significant threat of causing a mass shooting, and certainly not beyond the rate of risk that exists for natural born citizens. If there is a statistical difference, it is very small, and may even fall in favor of the immigrants. If that's where this thread is headed, I'll close it myself, if a moderator doesn't beat me to it. I hope we can continue, as this has been illuminating. Last edited by maestro pistolero; April 6, 2009 at 06:36 PM. |
April 6, 2009, 06:19 PM | #57 |
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I have a valid point, but so does Glenn.... I'll concede that I was "meandering" off topic. Sorry maestro. .
I'll stick to my main point now; lousy parenting. I really believe this to be the largest contributing factor.
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April 6, 2009, 06:36 PM | #58 |
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No apology necessary, thanks for chiming in.
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April 6, 2009, 07:23 PM | #59 |
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in my previous post i think i expressed my distaste for the "general media"... just another thought --- all the negatives piled up on top of one another in ones life can lead someone to the edge or shall we say "snap"... that point at which they think they have no alternative but to make every one in their immediate "social bubble" feel their pain...
again we ask,,,,,why "gun" violence??????? i think it is nothing more than what has been impressed in their minds... where did they ever get the idea to grab a gun and do the things they do...if there were no guns, only swords, or maybe just clubs and or rocks, dont you think the same things would happen? (well it has).... as a culture we need to start promoting more positives in peoples lives, everyone we "touch"...even the small things make a difference... we need to start doing it soon, so concentrate on it cheers! |
April 7, 2009, 10:03 AM | #60 |
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Folks act out based on models they see in part.
Look at the guy who was flying the Cessna so that the USAF would shoot him down. If it weren't for 9/11 - it wouldn't come to mind most likely. Social cognitive learning theory clearly shows us that people can observe the outcomes of actions and mimic them. The repeated coverage of Columbine, VT and other rampages reinforces the next rampager. He or she is driven by their underlying pathology but models their action on what they learned. Every memorial, weeping parents and friends and pundits discussing the rampager reinforces some next one who sees him or herself generating the pain, being psychoanalyzed by some schmuck Dr. Phil, etc. Legit experts have been beating the drum of not doing this media blitz but it falls on deaf ideas. When a school has a big gathering and everyone waves candles, Mom cries on TV how Victim Biff and Tiffany were good kids (he was on the team and she was a cheerleader), the police chief thunders that the shooter was a coward and Dr. Phil-oid says he was disturbed (and if only we helped the poor soul) - the pathological person is vicariously rewarded for planning the next action. Seeing Mom cry over Biff and Tiff is rewarding to them. Unfortunately, the world of sensationalist TV - it won't stop. How many other shooters and Octo-Moms (ban hi-cap Moms?) are now planning their actions? That's what's going on - not the looney stuff (antigun plots, Supreme court, immigrants, etc.) 1. Underlying pathology 2. Life stresses that exaggerate the stresses and increase patholology (so losing your job, going nuts over politics, problems as an immigrant, being ditched by YOUR LADY, etc. are examples of a stressor) 3. Anger at some group and/or society - felt picked on or not supported by something or someone. 4. Modeling a violent action - so that they become an expressive killer and/or plan a suicide with hostile intent. That can come from video games, watching coverage of past rampages, focusing on weapons related media. They can focus on gun culture and weapons. More exposure to weapons probably interacts with these folks to enhance their violent ideation. 5. They intend to die a 'warriors' death' as compared to a lonely suicide - they want to make a point with their death - Revenge, change society to take into account their concerns (a weird and perverted altruistic motive). That's the package.
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April 7, 2009, 10:37 AM | #61 |
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I think any gun owner has probably pontificated, either in person or online, that the current administration is going to try to either ban certain guns, make it difficult to buy, etc.
Using that fact, if anyone here went on a shooting spree, we could have dozens of witnesses saying that person was afraid, "Obama was going to take his/her guns." Doesn't mean, in any way, that was the reason for the shooting spree. Just means that's the reason that will get spread through the media. |
April 7, 2009, 10:56 AM | #62 |
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When people group together (form a society) they tend to develop something called "rules of civilization". These rules are all the little accepted social quirks that identify someone as A) Part of this social group and B) behaving within acceptable parameters.
Put simply, it was a group-survival defense mechanism. Along came "political-correctness" and our current litigation-happy society. Now pointing out that someone is behaving on, or well past, the fringe of acceptable behavior will get you a lawsuit and other problems. So people are getting re-programmed to just "mind their own business" and the natural protective and corrective actions of "society" are being impeded. So is it any wonder these fringe cases are not being handled or even acknowledged until it is too late? Combine that behavior with the fact that studies have shown that a certain tiny, but astonishingly consistent, percentage of ANY population is "fringe" and multiply that percentage by a population of 300 MILLION people. Now add in a dose of economic hardship and the stresses involved. I'd say that's a pretty explosive mix of elements in it's own right irrespective of guns, bombs, knives, or automobiles. |
April 7, 2009, 11:43 AM | #63 | |
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Hecate posted:
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"If you love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." Samuel Adams. |
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April 7, 2009, 11:49 AM | #64 | |
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Allowing a kid to have a padlock on his bedroom door is only the beginning of the problems in that house hold. Those people were strangers living in the same house. They were NOT a nuclear family in any sense but genetics. Broken families have a well proven relationship with criminal behavior. "Broken" doesn't always mean separated.
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April 7, 2009, 11:52 AM | #65 | |
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The Zacharias posted:
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"If you love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." Samuel Adams. |
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April 7, 2009, 12:02 PM | #66 | |
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"If you love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." Samuel Adams. |
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April 7, 2009, 12:21 PM | #67 | |
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April 7, 2009, 05:02 PM | #68 | |
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Peetzakilla posted:
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My wife was describing a commercial she saw the other day. It had to do with reuseable, cloth, grocery bags. A young boy and his father were in the commercial which showed them using one of these bags. My wife said at the end of the commercial was an audible message which said something to the effect of "Helping to make him a better man". She thought this was just pathetic. (Of course, being married to a "real man" such as me has obviously set a bias in her ). So, to be better MEN, we need to be green and get the reusable cloth grocery bags? By whose judgement are we then "better men"? That's rather silly if you ask me. Now don't get me wrong. I see nothing wrong with using those reusable grocery bags, or recycling the paper ones. But doing those things does not necessarily make a male a "better man". There are more important criteria than that, IMO. Teaching your son how to safely handle firearms would make one a "better man" as far as I'm concerned. Being a scout leader, teaching your son right from wrong, coaching sports, teaching your son manners, etc. are all more important than reusable grocery bags. Sheesh.
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April 7, 2009, 05:08 PM | #69 |
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Freudian misunderstood psychobabble and wandering off track.
Thus, I'm closing it down to maintain the integrity of earlier parts of the discussion. I did warn that this was a path to the chopping block.
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