June 13, 2018, 03:20 AM | #1 |
Junior Member
Join Date: June 2, 2018
Posts: 10
|
"Waterproof" reloads?
Just curious if anyone has made any reloads that would be considered waterproof or water resistant at least. If so did you test them? Just curious planning on an elk hunt in a couple years and want to have as many possible problems ironed out ahead of time.
Thanks |
June 13, 2018, 06:27 AM | #2 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 22, 2005
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 3,623
|
NRA recommended thinned fingernail polish dipped with a paperclip, then applied to the edges of the primer for sealant. Same treatment on the case mouth as I recall. Ed Harris was the author IIRC. In my own use, I've left hand gun rounds in my jeans pockets several times that went through the wash and subsequently found that they fired just fine and stayed in the group as well. YMMV, Rod
__________________
Cherish our flag, honor it, defend it in word and deed, or get the hell out. Our Bill of Rights has been paid for by heros in uniform and shall not be diluted by misguided governmental social experiments. We owe this to our children, anything less is cowardice. USAF FAC, 5th Spl Forces, Vietnam Vet '69-'73. |
June 13, 2018, 08:21 AM | #3 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 22, 2006
Posts: 3,077
|
Quote:
|
|
June 13, 2018, 08:52 AM | #4 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 21, 2011
Location: way out here
Posts: 262
|
I sunk a canoe one time, including my 686 and a box of .357 reloads. The tasco pro-point red dot, filled with water. Later, as the water drained out, and it was only half full, I could joke that I had the only red dot with a built in level. Anyway, the ammo was underwater for an hour or more, but it all fired just fine. Bottom line: a 17' foot canoe full of water, is really, really heavy!
|
June 13, 2018, 09:37 AM | #5 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 7, 2009
Location: Western New York
Posts: 2,736
|
Basically, you can't get any water into a rifle bullet if the bullet is seated properly in the case with enough pressure to keep it in the case. Same with the primer. Water will not pass through an opening that is .04mm or smaller without being forced through under great pressure. An opening of .04mm/.0015 is small enough to prevent water from passing through. Millions and millions of pressure containers are tested every year for various reasons, and it was long ago discovered that in order to see air bubbles coming out of a pressurized container under water the opening had to be larger than that. It's actually called a water seal in the automotive climate control industry. Until helium testers came into use, all coolant products (radiators) were tested that way. Ammo may become corroded after being left outside and getting wet, but it will still go bang. In your pocket, coat, or pack it will be dry enough to not cause any problems. Capillary action doesn't apply here.
|
June 13, 2018, 10:04 AM | #6 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 7, 2009
Location: Southern Oregon!
Posts: 2,891
|
Normal hunting with rain, etc. and even short term dunking shouldn't harm reloads. The bullets and primers are an "interference fit" (insert is a few thousandths of an inch smaller than the hole) and water tight...
__________________
My Anchor is holding fast! I've learned how to stand on my own two knees... |
June 13, 2018, 02:38 PM | #7 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 21, 2013
Location: Idaho
Posts: 5,523
|
Quote:
__________________
Gun control laws benefit only criminals and politicians - but then, I repeat myself. Life Member, National Rifle Association |
|
June 13, 2018, 09:43 PM | #8 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 25, 2008
Location: In the valley above the plain
Posts: 13,424
|
Quote:
With a quick dunk in water, or constant rain on a loaded firearm, and standard ammunition (including reloads) should not have a problem. ...But it should be considered water "resistant", not "water tight". Almost ten years ago, now, I started testing water incursion into military ammunition, factory SD ammo, factory 'blasting' ammo, and reloads exposed to submersion in water. Yea, yea... most people aren't going to be storing their ammunition under water, but I wanted to know how each type of sealant (or lack thereof) performed under very undesirable circumstances. .380 Auto, 9x19mm, and .30-06, submerged in 6" of water. I had control cartridges, and dunked the rest. Samples were removed in pairs: One cartridge to pull down to check for moisture, and one cartridge to attempt to fire. The cartridges were fired once a week, after being stored in a sealed bag (case thoroughly dried on the outside, then bagged). Samples were removed every few hours at first, then every day for a few days, then once a week for six weeks, and then once a month for three months. ...And then I forgot about the test for about a year. A short(ish) summary of the results, from memory: ALL unsealed ammo had water incursion within 24 hours. Reloads were even worse (likely due to carbon residue in the necks and primer pockets). Reloads sealed with Markron primer sealer did slightly better than nail polish, but both were wet by the end of the first week. Most sealed factory ammo had evidence of moisture in the powder by about week three (9mm Speer Gold Dots were the primary contender here). With two exceptions, all loads had soaking-wet powder by six weeks in. The two exceptions: 10+ year-old Winchester SXT .380 Auto SD load (the "not a Black Talon" load from the '90s -- now PDX1, or whatever it is). And some old LC 67 .30-06 that had been pitch-sealed. The SXT and vietnam .30-06 was, on average, bone dry after all others failed, even after being submerged for a total of almost 18 months. But, even then... Both the SXT ammo and the surplus did have cases that had wet powder inside them at some point during the testing. No matter how well the ammunition is sealed, there's always a weak link that doesn't quite make the cut. Will that weak link be the cartridge in the chamber when you need it the most?... (I was being a bit facetious with that last statement. Unless you store your ammunition under water, it won't really matter.) My takeaway was that if your ammo will be getting wet, it needs to be sealed (a good cleaning before applying Markron being the assumption for reloads). And if your ammo might be exposed to water for a prolonged period of time (such as with water/snow sitting on the cases heads all day while in a cartridge carrier/belt), you'd better figure out how to pitch-seal. But, of course, it's well within reason to also reach the conclusion that it doesn't really matter if you aren't submerging...
__________________
Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe. |
|
June 14, 2018, 07:02 AM | #9 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 22, 2005
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 3,623
|
Great write-up Frank. Very thorough. Rod
__________________
Cherish our flag, honor it, defend it in word and deed, or get the hell out. Our Bill of Rights has been paid for by heros in uniform and shall not be diluted by misguided governmental social experiments. We owe this to our children, anything less is cowardice. USAF FAC, 5th Spl Forces, Vietnam Vet '69-'73. |
June 14, 2018, 07:07 AM | #10 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 22, 2006
Posts: 3,077
|
Quote:
|
|
June 14, 2018, 10:48 AM | #11 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 7, 2009
Location: Southern Oregon!
Posts: 2,891
|
Quote:
Thank god for the forum experts...
__________________
My Anchor is holding fast! I've learned how to stand on my own two knees... |
|
June 14, 2018, 01:57 PM | #12 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 21, 2013
Location: Idaho
Posts: 5,523
|
Nail polish thinner?
Quote:
__________________
Gun control laws benefit only criminals and politicians - but then, I repeat myself. Life Member, National Rifle Association |
|
June 14, 2018, 06:40 PM | #13 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 22, 2005
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 3,623
|
Nick: This is where I got the information regarding primer/bullet sealing. It's an old article by Harris who has always been a very knowledgeable authority... he's the inventor of "Ed's Red" as I understand it. As I recall, I originally found the article in the American Rifleman...but it appears that I was mistaken.
Here's the current internet seach reference: https://www.scribd.com/document/4981...-E-Harris-1986 HTH's Rod C.E. Harris' piece entitled: "Reloading for the Semi-Auto 1986" in Handloader #139, pg. 60 at the very end of the article writes: If you insist on waterproofing primers or wish to identify batches of loads, the following method will give satisfactory results. Obtain some model airplane lacquer (not epoxy or urethane-based paint), of a highly visible color such as red, green or blue. Dilute it with lacquer thinner to a watery consistency. With the primed cases or loaded rounds stacked base up in an MTM box or similar container, dip a straightened paperclip about half an inch into the diluted lacquer. That should leave exactly one drop on the clip. If you touch the end of the wire to the edge of the primer pocket, the lacquer will flow neatly and perfectly,looking just like Lake City did it. You can seal the bullet by holding the round in your fingers and applying a single drop where case mouth and bullet meet. Use one drop on a .22 to.270 round and not more than two on a 7mm to 8mm cartridge.
__________________
Cherish our flag, honor it, defend it in word and deed, or get the hell out. Our Bill of Rights has been paid for by heros in uniform and shall not be diluted by misguided governmental social experiments. We owe this to our children, anything less is cowardice. USAF FAC, 5th Spl Forces, Vietnam Vet '69-'73. Last edited by rodfac; June 14, 2018 at 07:12 PM. |
June 14, 2018, 07:18 PM | #14 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 21, 2013
Location: Idaho
Posts: 5,523
|
Thank you rodfac. Much appreciated.
__________________
Gun control laws benefit only criminals and politicians - but then, I repeat myself. Life Member, National Rifle Association |
June 14, 2018, 09:00 PM | #15 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: August 25, 2008
Location: In the valley above the plain
Posts: 13,424
|
Quote:
I also came across notes for two other previous tests that I had completely forgotten about: I initially did a short overnight submersion test, followed only by live-fire the next day. And then there was a 5-month submersion test that involved letting one group of cartridges air-dry for two weeks, while another group of cartridges was immediately sealed after removal from water. The live-fire-only test had a wet powder failure to fire (squib) as soon as testing started -- 12 hours after submersion. The 5-month test had an unsealed cartridge fail to fire after just 1 hour under water, and two weeks air-drying. Somewhat contradictory to the test mentioned previously, I had ZERO failures or wet powder in any sealed factory ammunition in the 5-month test. Markron sealant on reloads stayed dry for almost 2 months in that test, as well. However, looking at the notes also reminded me that the test mentioned in my previous post also involved shaking the container of water and ammo once a day for about 5 seconds. That agitation may have (quite literally) had an impact on the sealant failing more quickly. Quote:
To back up my belief that primer pockets are not water tight, I'm going to kick off another experiment tonight. Results will be available some time between tomorrow and next year.
__________________
Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe. |
||
June 14, 2018, 11:10 PM | #16 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 22, 2006
Posts: 3,077
|
Quote:
|
|
June 15, 2018, 03:36 AM | #17 |
Junior member
Join Date: February 27, 2015
Posts: 1,768
|
The military issued us 'Waterproof' ammo for extended wet condition use.
As usual, the schizophrenic nature of anything military or government came right out... The outer package proclaimed "Waterproof, Amphibious Assault" and the inner box said, "Store In Cool Dry Areas Only"... I was trying to place the smell those rounds had, and I think a previous post hit the nail on the head, they smelled like pine tar when you opened the packages. I was thinking of boiled linseed oil when I started reading this, but now I think it might have been pine tar/pine pitch. Been several years back, but that's one smell you don't forget. As for water not being able to enter anything smaller than .0015" I point to capillary movement... I have to admit, I haven't done any water testing. Other than a muzzle loader one time deer hunting I've never had moisture problems that prompted testing. |
June 15, 2018, 05:23 AM | #18 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 25, 2008
Location: In the valley above the plain
Posts: 13,424
|
It's a bit archaic and laughable - especially when taken in the context of my general view toward not screwing with questionable ammunition - but my motives were driven primarily by a crate of mixed ammo that I was given.
Specifically, the crate of ammo was given to me by someone close to me, after being in the uncovered bed of his truck for two years -- completely exposed to the weather, with most ammo boxes exhibiting notable to significant amounts of water damage. But, between curiosity and the fact that the crate contained 100% commercial ammo, I wanted to know... (For the record: My family ended up firing every single round of ammo that was in the crate, with the exception of some .410 shells. Why? ... Because I didn't have a .410 until recently, and haven't gotten around to shooting or repurposing it all ... yet. ) "Water tight" primer test underway. Results and methods to be posted when I have something (or nothing) worth mentioning.
__________________
Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe. |
June 15, 2018, 06:57 AM | #19 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 17, 2005
Location: Swamp dweller
Posts: 6,187
|
Quote:
__________________
NRA Life Member, NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, NRA Certified Pistol Instructor,, USPSA & Steel Challange NROI Range Officer, ICORE Range Officer, ,MAG 40 Graduate As you are, I once was, As I am, You will be. |
|
June 15, 2018, 08:13 AM | #20 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 22, 2006
Posts: 3,077
|
Quote:
|
|
June 15, 2018, 08:17 AM | #21 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 22, 2006
Posts: 3,077
|
Quote:
“Click...........bang” and some were just “click.......poof” |
|
June 15, 2018, 10:49 AM | #22 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 20, 2007
Location: Rainbow City, Alabama
Posts: 7,167
|
I find the whole idea of people getting "antsy" about dunking ammo to be funny. Spearfishermen have long used various normal ammo for bang sticks. I used to carry a 30-06 bang stick cartridge when I dove - thankfully never needed to use it. I've never heard of one failing to go off because it was wet. They do however, normally toss the unused cartridge overboard at the end of the day because salt water tends to do nasty things to most anything it touches.
|
June 15, 2018, 02:32 PM | #23 |
Junior member
Join Date: February 27, 2015
Posts: 1,768
|
My bang stick is .44 Mag. I sealed common ammo with what ever clear spray can sealer was on sale.
Kept the salt from eating up the case and I assume kept water out since the rounds I kept in my dry box and dove with went off when hammered. I didn't leave it loaded when I wasn't in the water, ammo washed, dried and put back in the dry box. The clear Krylon clear coat/sealer worked pretty well, I never had serious corrosion. I did however, watch a guy pour water out of a 12ga round, which is why I went with a .44 Mag. Fewer ways for water pressure to force it's way in. Asked why I needed a 'Gun' underwater, I said pepper spray doesn't work on sharks, they don't have taste buds or sinuses... The dumb anti-gunner dude actually bought it! I heard him repeat it to his boyfriend! |
June 15, 2018, 02:50 PM | #24 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 18, 2008
Posts: 7,249
|
Quote:
I have pulled down thousands of loaded rounds of ammo; in the process I found rounds that did not seal when loaded. I am the fan of bullet hold, I want all the bullet hold I can get. A tight neck assures a tight seal, I have no ideal what tension does for sealing, again, I can not measure neck tension in pounds. F. Guffey Last edited by F. Guffey; June 15, 2018 at 04:40 PM. Reason: remove u |
|
June 15, 2018, 06:36 PM | #25 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 5, 2012
Location: Southwest WA Coast
Posts: 559
|
Years ago Herters sold their "Improved Military Bullet Sealer" which looked and smelled like red fingernail polish. Since then I have used regular cheap undiluted nail polish and it works equally well, but then it may not have been needed in the first place. I stopped using it altogether without any problems and I live in a very wet climate.
|
|
|