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March 10, 2011, 03:38 AM | #1 |
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Unlicensed CC carry question
I have a concern about the trend toward unlicensed concealed carry, maybe someone could shed some light.
Kentucky has reciprocity with over 30 other states, one reason being we have such a lengthy class detailing carry laws. There is a movement here to get 'Constitutional Carry' like AZ, ID, AK and VT, but I'm worried it would negate reciprocity if they do away with permits. Thoughts? |
March 10, 2011, 06:39 AM | #2 |
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it does negate it.
Most constitutional carry states still will issue a CCW under their old rules. Then you get the 30 states back. It's a catch 22 AFS |
March 10, 2011, 08:00 AM | #3 |
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I see your point Chris and it is certainly a valid one.
I would like to see Kentucky adopt the Constitutional carry method. I would guess, that much like CCW in general you'll see more states start to adopt CC and perhaps as a result see a national CCW law finally put in place. However, in that intern, I would like to see Kentucky still issue a permit so that we don't lose the ability to carry in other states.
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March 10, 2011, 05:29 PM | #4 |
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I would like to see it treated like a drivers license, good in any state.
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March 10, 2011, 07:58 PM | #5 | |
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Like reciprocity for concealed permits, except that a lot of states do not agree. |
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March 10, 2011, 08:03 PM | #6 |
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I live in Kentucky. And I saw on the news that there supposed to abolish that law. So in about a year, You should be able to carry a concealed weapon, Without a License.
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March 12, 2011, 04:40 AM | #7 |
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I see.
Now the states that have unlicensed carry and don't offer a permit (VT), how do they carry across state lines? Also if the permit requirement is abolished how are people going to know about CC laws...ie, where you can/can't carry? Will we see many more arrests for people in say, bars or school functions (football games, meets etc)? Just having a hard time understanding how it works. |
March 12, 2011, 05:09 AM | #8 |
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You might need an out of state CHP, perhaps the state you will be most frequenting. If Utah still has permits that would be another route if the state you will visit has reciprocity with out of state Utah permits.
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March 12, 2011, 01:49 PM | #9 | |
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Complying with the laws doesn't seem to be an issue in those states that allow permitless carry of some sort, any more than permitless carry resulted in rivers of blood running down the streets at every fender bender. |
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March 12, 2011, 02:42 PM | #10 |
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I actually like the fact that we have to take CCW qualifications before being issued a carry permit. Could you imagine people just jumping into cars driving without having to pass a driving test and obtaining a driving license?
With firearms there are no room for errors and the consequences of negligence and ignorance can be devastating. I for one wouldn't feel safe around a person who is carrying a firearm and is not proficient and educated with the firearm. Those of us who have taken new shooters to the range will attest to this. We can be passionate about our rights to bear arms but also let's be rational about these rights as well. Not everybody deserves to be carry.. IMHO
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March 12, 2011, 03:03 PM | #11 | |
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March 12, 2011, 03:16 PM | #12 | ||
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look, millions of criminals already put our lives in danger by ignoring stupid unconstitutional laws
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March 12, 2011, 03:41 PM | #13 | |
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Is there any evidence that those people who CCW in a state that requires no permit or has less-restrictive permitting laws are demonstrably unsafer than those who are permitted by more restrictive states? If not, what is the purpose of greater restrictions other than giving some people a warm and fuzzy feeling about the whole thing? |
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March 12, 2011, 05:03 PM | #14 |
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Sadly NM no longer recognizes Utah permits due to the lesser requirements to obtain a CC License.
Not sure what the future holds with regard to the current changes in laws in the various states. Regards, Jerry
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March 12, 2011, 05:13 PM | #15 | |
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March 12, 2011, 05:18 PM | #16 |
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To clarify and answer some of questions above. I have no empirical evidence that people who carry in states that do not require a CCW qualifications are negligence with their firearms. Secondly I'm not in favor of some of the stupid laws on gun control which has no impact on preventing crime.
All that I was trying to say is that "Thy which we attain so easily we dear so cheap" Some times an individaual needs to pay a price in order to value that freedom they enjoy so easily and abuse some times. I'm all for gun rights, I have firearms, I carry almost daily, I have family members who had served in the Marine corp,I grew up with firearms in the house and I'm a freedom nutts. Our armed forces are known to be the best in the world because of training and technology at their disposal. So what I was trying to say is that it will be in the best interest of legally armed citizen to know the rules of engagement and some do acquire this knowledge during CCW qualification. If you disagree that's fine with me.
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March 12, 2011, 05:45 PM | #17 | |||
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March 12, 2011, 06:16 PM | #18 |
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I'm sick and tired of people who make a comparison of automobiles to guns. The Constitution does not guarantee the right to keep and drive an automobile but does guarantee the right to keep and bear arms. Any restrictions on automobiles (buy, test, drive, register, license, etc.) are irrelevant when refering to firearms. I'm reminded of those who make a comparison of restrictions on shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater to the restrictions on carrying a firearm saying they are both reasonable. If only we could apply the same logic to both situations. If I shout "Fire!" in a crowded theater and cause a panic, punish me. Don't tell me I must never use the word "Fire" in my everday conversations or must get a permit and pay a fee before I can use the word "Fire". Likewise, if I misuse a firearm. punish me. don't tell me I must get a permit and pay a fee before I can carry a firearm, either openly or concealed.
Last edited by MSgtUSMC; March 12, 2011 at 08:00 PM. |
March 12, 2011, 06:36 PM | #19 |
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Quite frankly I don't think I'd want some unlicensed CCW'ers wandering around my neighborhood / city without knowing what the general laws of CCW are. They're not overtly intuitive.
As noted earlier, AZ has both Licensed CCW and Unlicensed. Reciprocity is with the Licensed. If you look at what you can and cannot do with Licensed vs. Unlicensed CCW in AZ, it's pretty significant. I can't see any other state taking an AZ Unlicensed w/ reciprocity, otherwise it would create a loophole for those who don't have a clue as to what the law(s) may be. WAG |
March 12, 2011, 07:43 PM | #20 | |
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March 12, 2011, 08:44 PM | #21 | |
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March 12, 2011, 08:58 PM | #22 |
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I'm in AZ. As the constitutional carry measure was debated I studied what happened to Alaska's crime stats before and after their 2003 conversion to "Vermont carry" (the other common name for it).
It was interesting. Most crime stats stayed flat before and after. No upward spikes afterwards, which is to be expected - most murders are after all various types of "crook on crook" crimes...drug deals gone bad, mostly. Those aren't affected by carry laws. There was however a drop in one category of crime: rapes. It turns out Alaska has an insanely high rape rate and has for a long time...never knew that before. No idea why - may have something to do with the long winters, may be cultural. Whatever - point is, there was a detectable drop. It was either coincidence, or possibly more women were strapped because before, they didn't want to come "out of the gun closet" and spend the time or money for the permit and/or training. Possibly reasons of cost, of time spent, or of not wanting to be that much "out and on paper" as a gunnie ("un-feminine" maybe?). In any case, examining the Alaska data left me with no fears at all as to fallout from the AZ conversion. Like Alaska, AZ has kept the permit system in place as a voluntary thing. Weirdly, it's still useful in-state - a permitholder like me can go into a bar or eatery that serves drinks as long as it's concealed, I don't drink and I have the permit. It's also useful for reciprocity - I can drive from my house straight through to Virginia, Florida or Penn. as long as I veer south of Illinois. The various AZ proposals for "college campus carry" include linking that to permitholding.
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March 12, 2011, 09:28 PM | #23 |
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I prefer the shall issue position in many ways since there is a responsibility attached to carry that does go above and beyond what is knowable any other way than attending a CCW class. I have CCWs in three states already and I plan to take a refresher course this summer once again just to see if there are any changes. I spend a good deal of time in Idaho so it won't change things for me there since I already have a permit and reciprocity issues are important as well.
On the other hand, it is refreshing that these states can put forth pro-gun measures and pass them. But for myself, for documentation purposes, I will maintain my permits should the terrible event of actually needing to use them arise which I hope and pray it never does. So, I'm a little ambivalent about the constitutional carry from a pragmatic standpoint, but love it as a constitutional provision. |
March 12, 2011, 10:04 PM | #24 |
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It doesn’t matter what the law says may it be in the constitution or in the bible, at the end of the day an individual will make his decisions base on the things they value. That’s why we have criminals. Comparisons are made to prove that there is no written law whether in the bible or in the great constitution of this country which is perfect.
As far as passing judgment I have no personal knowledge of any of you therefore I cannot accuse any of having ulterior motives, may it be a gun control advocate, Democrat or Republican, the Devil or God. A question was asked and I was responding to it. Since not all minds are alike our opinions may differ. Just because you disagree with me doesn't make me err, unless one is claiming to be omniscient. But I respect your inputs because only through your contributions can we provide adequate answers to the questionnaire. So while I have the right to keep and bear arms, I will enjoy and protect this right whole hardly but the decision is always mine to make and it doesn’t matter who says what I can or can't. Than you
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[B]Future additions: Barret MRAD .338 Lapua.[B] Acquisition 2 Gen 3 Glock 19, 1 Gen 4 Glock 19, Daniel Defense V3 LW M4, Ruger SR1911, a Mossberg 500 and Remington 700 SPS AAC-SD. A fear of weapons is a sign of sexual retardation and emotional inmaturity.” Sigmund Freud |
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