Lymen 1200 DPS II

brselman · June 29, 2006, 04:28 PM

fyi: Just got my new electronic powder dispenser. Seemed to work fine the first day I got it. I'm somewhat annal and until I trust something I double check. And the double check again! I have been double checking all of my loads today against an electronic scale. The dispenser began drifting, and there was no way that I could recalibrate it to keep it from throwing loads about 0.5 grains larger than it was sent for. After about 1/2 h on the phone with Lymen, I gave up and have sent it back.

**Unclenick** · June 29, 2006, 04:39 PM

Drift is a serious problem with cheap electronic scales. A lot of them use plastic transducers. That said, it is not uncommon, even in some more expensive ones, to have problems being around computers and cell phones and other forms of interference. Only the $700 and up lab scales are likely to have faraday shielding. You can build your own, of course, but I think the easiest thing is to get all this gear away from sources of interference and in a room that is temperature stable. Turn off your cell phone and radio. If the unit won't run on batteries, get an EMI filter to plug it into.

Nick

arthurrh · June 29, 2006, 06:54 PM

interesting... I was thinking about buying one of those, anyone else have any feedback? How about other electornic scales, are they better or the same?

steve4102 · June 29, 2006, 08:23 PM

I have a Lyman 1200 DPS. I have used it for about 1 1/2 years and it has never missed a beat. Dead nuts every time.

**Unclenick** · June 29, 2006, 10:25 PM

Part of the trick here is what you are checking against? If you check against an electronic scale, how do you know whether it is the 1200 DPS or the electronic scale that is causing the problem? Checking against a balance beam scale is the only sure way I know. Slow, but reliable.

There are some scales that are better than others. The best use 4-post transducer mounts for the weighing pan which do the best job of compensating for a weight beiing placed on different locations on the pan, and usually have the best temperature drift compensation. A beam balance does this by hanging the pan from a point, but the electronic scales can't have a swinging pan or they wouldn't settle any faster than balance beam scales do. The original Dillon Terminator was such a scale, but they switched suppliers and I don't know about the current one? The CED Pocket scale is another. I keep one in my range box. It is very stable and repeatable, and because it runs only on batteries has no tendency to acquire line noise unless you are too near a source. It's only shortcoming is its 500 grain weight limit, though I am not currently weighing anything that heavy at the range.

My reference scale for the bench is an Acculab Vicon I got from Sinclair. It measures to 0.002 grains internally, then averages it up to 0.02 grains of display resolution to improve accuracy and reduce display jitter and least significant digit error. At a little under $300, it has the elements of a lab scale, but with some corners cut. No faraday shield, for one, and no internal auto-calibration (it comes with a cal weight). But the load cell is metal and not plastic beams that can show a lot of hysteresis. I believe the CED's load cell is as well. The Acculab cannot run on batteries as the CED can, so I use an old military surplus double box shielded transformer driven by a Sola resonant line voltage regulator to run it. I have to keep it away from cell phones or other emitters, but at least the manufacturer was very up front about all that.

I have an old Ohaus balance beam scale from back when I did scratch mixing of developers for the darkroom I had in my last house; the pre-digital photographic good old days. That serves for reality checking. I have a PACT dispenser and scale, but find that scale tends to drift. I plan to build a small, sturdy table from 2x4's, like one I built for my surface plate, and include a faraday shield and temperature regulation system for it. That will provide a stable environment for the Acculab and the PACT, though I don't know if the PACT will ever settle well? Plastic hysteresis again.

I should point out that all this trouble I go to is in large part because, as an electronics instrumentation engineer I have all the equipment at hand and don't have to buy it and occassionally have other uses for carefully regulated and isolated A.C. and faraday shielding. Had I none of it, I would still buy an EMI filter and a surge protector, use proper grounding and keep these instruments well away from any form of flourescent lamp, including compact flourescent lamps, and cell phones and radios or TV's or computers when using them. It is surprising how much trouble that interference can cause.

By the way, if you need to check the environment for common interference, tune an A.M. radio to a weak station and listen for noise over top of it, particularly 60 cycle buzz. If you can't get free of noise, believe it or not you can just line a box with aluminum foil like some sort of UFO paranoiac, and ground the foil to a copper pipe. Put the radio in the box to test it and orient the open side for least noise. If you see the the numbers on the scale change as your hands get near, step back to make a reading; you are being an antenna or a static source. You can ground yourself to the box foil via one of the static handler's wrist straps Radio Shack sells.

Nick

brselman · June 29, 2006, 11:01 PM

Unclenick: I know that the electronic scale is correct because I have a series of 6 check weights for it that range from 0.5 g up to 50 g. The scale is perfectly linear. You cannot beat that for calibration.

When you calibrate the Lymen, and you remove the 20 g weight, you should get -20g (the equivalent in grains), but I don't. That difference is what the dispenser is throwing extra. There is no way that I can recalibrate the electronics of the machine. That difference varies.

brselman · June 29, 2006, 11:01 PM

Unclenick: I know that the electronic scale is correct because I have a series of 6 check weights for it that range from 0.5 g up to 50 g. The scale is perfectly linear. You cannot beat that for calibration.

When you calibrate the Lymen, and you remove the 20 g weight, you should get -20g (the equivalent in grains), but I don't. That difference is what the dispenser is throwing extra. There is no way that I can recalibrate the electronics of the machine. That difference varies.

Tim R · June 30, 2006, 04:40 PM

I have the Lyman DPS which is a couple of years old. It seems to hold the powder weight very well. I know it tightened up my groups quite a bit and the build time for ammo used in my match rifles was reduced. I use my powder throw to throw powder close to what I want then let the Lyman finsh it off.

I think if I were to do it again though, I would be looking at the RCBS real hard.

444 · June 30, 2006, 05:46 PM

"I would be looking at the RCBS real hard"

Why ?

I would like to have one of these combination powder measure/scales but don't know which one to buy.
I briefly had one of the Lyman units but it met with an unfortunate accident the first day I had it. I couldn't wait to try it. I strung an extension cord and plugged it in. I then tripped over the cord and smashed it into pieces.
So, now I want to buy another one.

I am really sick and tired of using a balance beam scale. I am currently playing around with loading subsonic 77 grain Match Kings in .223 and every charge must trickled onto a scale because the powder measure doesn't meter the powder very well. I have to bend down to get my eye level with the scale to make sure it is on. I have to keep checking the adjustment on the scale because it can move if you bump anything. I have to pause when the air conditioner kicks on because the scale pan moves with the air.............................. What a pain.

Don H · June 30, 2006, 06:08 PM

Quote:

I have to bend down to get my eye level with the scale to make sure it is on.

Raise the scale?

444 · June 30, 2006, 06:36 PM

Or, I could lower the floor.
Or, cut my legs off at the knee.

Or, I could buy a new scale.

Don H · June 30, 2006, 08:05 PM

I have noticed that, as I age, the floor seems to be much lower than it used to be. If I ever build another house, I'm going to raise the floors.

Tim R · July 1, 2006, 10:54 AM

Quote:

"I would be looking at the RCBS real hard"

Why ?

I understand the new RCBS is faster. It's a few dollars more but......

Foxman · July 1, 2006, 02:23 PM

I have a DPS 1200 mk11 and check it regularly against balance beam scales, providing you let it stabilise for 30mins as it says in the instrcutions and keep it away from draughts , it stays within the accuracy claimed. Maybe you had a faulty one, or maybe your power in the house is a bit off, either frequency or intereference.
Mine has worked fine for 12 months, only gremlin was when we had a powerout, it screwed up a bit, just turned it off ofr 5 mins and powered it up again , it was fine.
To calibrate it you have to remove the pan so the reading is not - just - 20 grammes but also - the pan weight so you see -308.6 or so, then you zero it with the pan back in place. You should then get consistent loads within the accuracy they quote. They say the scale will warn you if it drifts more than .03 grs and to re zero every 5 loads by pressing zero button. So I dont understand why your getting varying loads, unless it is faulty.
Its all to do with price, you cant get lab accuracy for the sort of bucks Lyman charge for this, my lab scales which have the table / pan enclosed in a glass box cost $ 3000 ( redundant from the lab I worked in then) and it will hold to less than .001grs after stabilising but the internals are in a temperature stabilised oven an so on.
We dont need that accuracy, one tenth of a grain wont really make any difference to home loads, in fact generally in the calibers with bigger cases it is said only .5 grs will show a real difference

June 29, 2006, 04:28 PM	#1
brselman Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Johnson City, TN Posts: 78	Lymen 1200 DPS II fyi: Just got my new electronic powder dispenser. Seemed to work fine the first day I got it. I'm somewhat annal and until I trust something I double check. And the double check again! I have been double checking all of my loads today against an electronic scale. The dispenser began drifting, and there was no way that I could recalibrate it to keep it from throwing loads about 0.5 grains larger than it was sent for. After about 1/2 h on the phone with Lymen, I gave up and have sent it back.

June 29, 2006, 04:39 PM	#2
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	Drift is a serious problem with cheap electronic scales. A lot of them use plastic transducers. That said, it is not uncommon, even in some more expensive ones, to have problems being around computers and cell phones and other forms of interference. Only the $700 and up lab scales are likely to have faraday shielding. You can build your own, of course, but I think the easiest thing is to get all this gear away from sources of interference and in a room that is temperature stable. Turn off your cell phone and radio. If the unit won't run on batteries, get an EMI filter to plug it into. Nick __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

June 29, 2006, 10:25 PM	#5
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	Part of the trick here is what you are checking against? If you check against an electronic scale, how do you know whether it is the 1200 DPS or the electronic scale that is causing the problem? Checking against a balance beam scale is the only sure way I know. Slow, but reliable. There are some scales that are better than others. The best use 4-post transducer mounts for the weighing pan which do the best job of compensating for a weight beiing placed on different locations on the pan, and usually have the best temperature drift compensation. A beam balance does this by hanging the pan from a point, but the electronic scales can't have a swinging pan or they wouldn't settle any faster than balance beam scales do. The original Dillon Terminator was such a scale, but they switched suppliers and I don't know about the current one? The CED Pocket scale is another. I keep one in my range box. It is very stable and repeatable, and because it runs only on batteries has no tendency to acquire line noise unless you are too near a source. It's only shortcoming is its 500 grain weight limit, though I am not currently weighing anything that heavy at the range. My reference scale for the bench is an Acculab Vicon I got from Sinclair. It measures to 0.002 grains internally, then averages it up to 0.02 grains of display resolution to improve accuracy and reduce display jitter and least significant digit error. At a little under $300, it has the elements of a lab scale, but with some corners cut. No faraday shield, for one, and no internal auto-calibration (it comes with a cal weight). But the load cell is metal and not plastic beams that can show a lot of hysteresis. I believe the CED's load cell is as well. The Acculab cannot run on batteries as the CED can, so I use an old military surplus double box shielded transformer driven by a Sola resonant line voltage regulator to run it. I have to keep it away from cell phones or other emitters, but at least the manufacturer was very up front about all that. I have an old Ohaus balance beam scale from back when I did scratch mixing of developers for the darkroom I had in my last house; the pre-digital photographic good old days. That serves for reality checking. I have a PACT dispenser and scale, but find that scale tends to drift. I plan to build a small, sturdy table from 2x4's, like one I built for my surface plate, and include a faraday shield and temperature regulation system for it. That will provide a stable environment for the Acculab and the PACT, though I don't know if the PACT will ever settle well? Plastic hysteresis again. I should point out that all this trouble I go to is in large part because, as an electronics instrumentation engineer I have all the equipment at hand and don't have to buy it and occassionally have other uses for carefully regulated and isolated A.C. and faraday shielding. Had I none of it, I would still buy an EMI filter and a surge protector, use proper grounding and keep these instruments well away from any form of flourescent lamp, including compact flourescent lamps, and cell phones and radios or TV's or computers when using them. It is surprising how much trouble that interference can cause. By the way, if you need to check the environment for common interference, tune an A.M. radio to a weak station and listen for noise over top of it, particularly 60 cycle buzz. If you can't get free of noise, believe it or not you can just line a box with aluminum foil like some sort of UFO paranoiac, and ground the foil to a copper pipe. Put the radio in the box to test it and orient the open side for least noise. If you see the the numbers on the scale change as your hands get near, step back to make a reading; you are being an antenna or a static source. You can ground yourself to the box foil via one of the static handler's wrist straps Radio Shack sells. Nick __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

June 30, 2006, 04:40 PM	#8
Tim R Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2004 Location: God's side of Washington State Posts: 1,601	I have the Lyman DPS which is a couple of years old. It seems to hold the powder weight very well. I know it tightened up my groups quite a bit and the build time for ammo used in my match rifles was reduced. I use my powder throw to throw powder close to what I want then let the Lyman finsh it off. I think if I were to do it again though, I would be looking at the RCBS real hard. __________________ God Bless our Troops especially our Snipers.

June 30, 2006, 05:46 PM	#9
444 Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2000 Location: Ohio Posts: 3,968	"I would be looking at the RCBS real hard" Why ? I would like to have one of these combination powder measure/scales but don't know which one to buy. I briefly had one of the Lyman units but it met with an unfortunate accident the first day I had it. I couldn't wait to try it. I strung an extension cord and plugged it in. I then tripped over the cord and smashed it into pieces. So, now I want to buy another one. I am really sick and tired of using a balance beam scale. I am currently playing around with loading subsonic 77 grain Match Kings in .223 and every charge must trickled onto a scale because the powder measure doesn't meter the powder very well. I have to bend down to get my eye level with the scale to make sure it is on. I have to keep checking the adjustment on the scale because it can move if you bump anything. I have to pause when the air conditioner kicks on because the scale pan moves with the air.............................. What a pain. __________________ You know the rest. In the books you have read How the British Regulars fired and fled, How the farmers gave them ball for ball, From behind each fence and farmyard wall, Chasing the redcoats down the lane, Then crossing the fields to emerge again Under the trees at the turn of the road, And only pausing to fire and load.

June 29, 2006, 06:54 PM	#3
arthurrh Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2004 Posts: 189	interesting... I was thinking about buying one of those, anyone else have any feedback? How about other electornic scales, are they better or the same?

June 29, 2006, 08:23 PM	#4
steve4102 Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,952	I have a Lyman 1200 DPS. I have used it for about 1 1/2 years and it has never missed a beat. Dead nuts every time.

June 29, 2006, 11:01 PM	#6
brselman Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Johnson City, TN Posts: 78	Unclenick: I know that the electronic scale is correct because I have a series of 6 check weights for it that range from 0.5 g up to 50 g. The scale is perfectly linear. You cannot beat that for calibration. When you calibrate the Lymen, and you remove the 20 g weight, you should get -20g (the equivalent in grains), but I don't. That difference is what the dispenser is throwing extra. There is no way that I can recalibrate the electronics of the machine. That difference varies.

June 30, 2006, 06:36 PM	#11
444 Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2000 Location: Ohio Posts: 3,968	Or, I could lower the floor. Or, cut my legs off at the knee. Or, I could buy a new scale. __________________ You know the rest. In the books you have read How the British Regulars fired and fled, How the farmers gave them ball for ball, From behind each fence and farmyard wall, Chasing the redcoats down the lane, Then crossing the fields to emerge again Under the trees at the turn of the road, And only pausing to fire and load.

June 30, 2006, 08:05 PM	#12
Don H Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2000 Location: SLC,Utah Posts: 2,704	I have noticed that, as I age, the floor seems to be much lower than it used to be. If I ever build another house, I'm going to raise the floors.

July 1, 2006, 02:23 PM	#14
Foxman Senior Member Join Date: August 13, 2005 Posts: 466	I have a DPS 1200 mk11 and check it regularly against balance beam scales, providing you let it stabilise for 30mins as it says in the instrcutions and keep it away from draughts , it stays within the accuracy claimed. Maybe you had a faulty one, or maybe your power in the house is a bit off, either frequency or intereference. Mine has worked fine for 12 months, only gremlin was when we had a powerout, it screwed up a bit, just turned it off ofr 5 mins and powered it up again , it was fine. To calibrate it you have to remove the pan so the reading is not - just - 20 grammes but also - the pan weight so you see -308.6 or so, then you zero it with the pan back in place. You should then get consistent loads within the accuracy they quote. They say the scale will warn you if it drifts more than .03 grs and to re zero every 5 loads by pressing zero button. So I dont understand why your getting varying loads, unless it is faulty. Its all to do with price, you cant get lab accuracy for the sort of bucks Lyman charge for this, my lab scales which have the table / pan enclosed in a glass box cost $ 3000 ( redundant from the lab I worked in then) and it will hold to less than .001grs after stabilising but the internals are in a temperature stabilised oven an so on. We dont need that accuracy, one tenth of a grain wont really make any difference to home loads, in fact generally in the calibers with bigger cases it is said only .5 grs will show a real difference __________________ Better the man suspected of being a fool keep his mouth shut, than to open it and remove all doubt.