angled sunlight + iron sights

dyl · June 21, 2018, 12:30 AM

So I may have stumbled upon a strange phenomenon today.
The previous range i used to shoot at was positioned in a way that the sun traveled from downrange towards the shooter as the day went on. The range I shoot at now the sun travels from the right side of the bay to the left side.

I was getting really frustrated shooting a compact pistol and it was shooting WAY high and to the right, somewhere like 4 inches high and right. I had grown accustomed to aligning the tops of the sights rather than the white dots since it's more universal. So then I finally used the white dots and whaddya know I'm shooting POA now. That NEVER happened before and I've had this pistol for 8 years maybe.

I think perhaps the sunlight, coming in at an angle, affected my perception of the space between the front sight post and rear posts. Or it highlighted one of the surfaces of the iron sights and made me want to give it more space - who knows. Inside I thought, "these white dots are so far apart, it's so imprecise" but it worked way better than my traditional method.

Anyone have a similar experience? Here I thought the old school method was fool-proof because the dots / bars / triangles can be gimmicky. But being recessed into the sights, the dots may be less prone to glare or less affected by uneven lighting.

AK103K · June 21, 2018, 09:25 AM

Different light definitely affects your sights and how you see them. Sometimes to the point of not really being able to see them.

I run into what youre describing quite a bit actually, especially on bright sunny days, just on either side of 12 noon. I find its more noticeable with the three dot night sights many of my handguns have, and its usually at the longer distance when Im trying to get a good "traditional" sight picture. At closer ranges, 15 yards and in, I normally just use the dots, so its not as much of an issue there.

The sun can mess with your perception of the dots themselves too, especially with the night sights, as you normally dont see the inserts in the dots. In different light, the inserts become more apparent and can look different.

The other time I have trouble with it, is with my SS revolvers that have SS sights, or sights the same color as the finish. I normally either black them out or color them anyway, so its not usually an issue.

Not so much an issue with handguns, but with rifles using an aperture type rear sight, low sun over your shoulder, or any light directly on the rear of the sight itself, can make getting any sight picture very difficult, as the sun/light makes the rear of the sight brighter and more of a focus point than the aperture. It also makes looking through the aperture difficult.

If youve shot any target type shooting with rifles using iron sights, you know there may be needed sight adjustments made for different lighting situations.

RickB · June 21, 2018, 12:07 PM

I shoot a few revolvers with rounded, "half a nickel" front sights, which was an extremely popular style for 100 years, but the angle of lighting can make varying amounts of the front sight all but disappear.
Some day, I'll get a Patridge front sight on the gun with a pinned-in blade.

I'm not a fan of dots in addition to good, square sights, but I have experienced sighting made difficult by glare, and a dot would then provide an alternate means of sight alignment.

rock185 · June 21, 2018, 12:41 PM

Yes, I routinely experience this at our local South facing range. I still do best with black on black sights.....ymmv

TailGator · June 22, 2018, 01:44 PM

I have read that bulls eye shooters blacken their sights with soot for competition. I suppose something of this nature is why?

NoSecondBest · June 22, 2018, 02:17 PM

Lots of shooters have known about this for a hundred years. If you shoot enough target outside with open sights you'll either "discover" it, hear about it, or just keep drifting all over the target and not knowing that light is playing around with your POI. Blackening your sights helps a lot. I used a carbide lighter for years when shooting silhouette and it made a huge difference in how well I shot. Even doing that, sometimes the light effected the POI. There was an old adage often repeated by the guys in the know "the strike follows the sun".

AK103K · June 22, 2018, 03:03 PM

Quote:

"the strike follows the sun"

Yup, that and "lights up sights up", or "lights down, sights down", and some others.

Blacking your sights helps in matches, or pretty much anything where youre basically stationary. It "flattens" the metals finish, and takes the glare away. Doesnt usually hold up well to handling though and needs to be reapplied regularly. It can be messy too.

It also doesnt do much for you if youre practicing more for real world shooting, where you get to deal with what you got.

As much as the sun can be annoying, it is what it is. Better to find out in practice, and learn to deal with it.

Mike38 · June 24, 2018, 10:42 AM

For a less messy sight blackening, try a dry erase marker in black. There are some brands that are glossy, which you don't want. There are some brands that are matte finish, which is what you want. I use one called Chesmate (I think) from Walmart.

NoSecondBest · June 24, 2018, 11:35 AM

Quote:

It also doesnt do much for you if youre practicing more for real world shooting, where you get to deal with what you got.

You're funny. Competition and hunting aren't "real world" shooting?

David R · June 24, 2018, 11:43 AM

I keep a bic lighter in my shooting bag. Used to keep the sight smoker that used calcium carbide and a drop of water.

Flat black is best for me.

It really helps with fixed sight guns.

I have a stainless 44 special. Front sight blends in with the steel bowling pins that started out painted white. Some soot from the Bic lighter and I get lots of contrast.

For bullseye, flat black sights and a six o'clock hold.

Grip the gun firmly, squeeze the trigger gently.

Shoot the bouncing ball.

David

DPris · June 24, 2018, 12:32 PM

Black Rustoleum.
Spray the whole gun.
Uniformity is cool.
Denis

Erno86 · June 24, 2018, 01:17 PM

I know I should shoot in all conditions...but I rarely shoot with the sun overhead that would affect my iron sight picture. Though I try to avoid the sun, because I work outside during the weekdays and prefer the shade of the shooting range overhead canopy in the morning.

My only pistol that has white sight inserts...is my Browning Hi-Power. My Kimber 1911 has tritium inserts. But I'll have to check out shooting my Hi-Power in the sun, while depending on sighting with the white inserts --- Thanks for the tip.

"Blackening your sights helps but doesn't eliminate the issue."

"With the gun directly overhead, it will seem like your front sight is shorter, it will cause you to compensate with a higher hold making your POI higher. With the sun to the left, it makes your front sight thinner, the left side of the front sight disappears making you compensate more to the left which shifts your POI to the left."

quotes: another gun forum

AK103K · June 24, 2018, 04:44 PM

Quote:

You're funny. Competition and hunting aren't "real world" shooting?

Depends. Is that how you practice for them? Like you shoot them?

Many, if not most I see at the ranges I shoot, dont.

They used to make a spray-on sight black. I think it was Birchwood Casey. Small can, does the same as the old carbide type lamps, without the fire.

Still "sooty" though, and messy if you plan on handling the gun other than shooting it.

Wouldnt recommend it on night sights or some of the other type sights though. Unless youre into detail cleaning things. Its more for competition target type shooters.

Drm50 · June 25, 2018, 08:23 PM

My handgun front sights are all Patrige Blades except a couple that have non
replaceable ramps and blades. These ramp sights like on S&W m34 Kit Gun
m28 Highway Patrolman and Ruger SBH get polished off on top and prevent a
definite sight picture. Also the red ramps give a false picture. I carry a large
felt marker to black these out. A crisp defined front sight helps me and a plain
black blade is best for my eyes. The new flouresent colored optics drive me to
drink. Ray Bar is fine on a shotgun but I want no part of them on rifle or pistol.

**JohnKSa** · June 27, 2018, 12:58 AM

Interesting article on the topic.

https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2017/...ts-in-the-sun/

I remember coming across this topic some years ago and thinking that it made sense that bright light from one side could change the sight picture slightly and therefore shift the group on the target.

It appears that it affects different people differently--and some do not appear to be affected at all.

June 21, 2018, 12:30 AM	#1
dyl Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2009 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,310	angled sunlight + iron sights So I may have stumbled upon a strange phenomenon today. The previous range i used to shoot at was positioned in a way that the sun traveled from downrange towards the shooter as the day went on. The range I shoot at now the sun travels from the right side of the bay to the left side. I was getting really frustrated shooting a compact pistol and it was shooting WAY high and to the right, somewhere like 4 inches high and right. I had grown accustomed to aligning the tops of the sights rather than the white dots since it's more universal. So then I finally used the white dots and whaddya know I'm shooting POA now. That NEVER happened before and I've had this pistol for 8 years maybe. I think perhaps the sunlight, coming in at an angle, affected my perception of the space between the front sight post and rear posts. Or it highlighted one of the surfaces of the iron sights and made me want to give it more space - who knows. Inside I thought, "these white dots are so far apart, it's so imprecise" but it worked way better than my traditional method. Anyone have a similar experience? Here I thought the old school method was fool-proof because the dots / bars / triangles can be gimmicky. But being recessed into the sights, the dots may be less prone to glare or less affected by uneven lighting.

June 21, 2018, 12:07 PM	#3
RickB Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2000 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 8,518	I shoot a few revolvers with rounded, "half a nickel" front sights, which was an extremely popular style for 100 years, but the angle of lighting can make varying amounts of the front sight all but disappear. Some day, I'll get a Patridge front sight on the gun with a pinned-in blade. I'm not a fan of dots in addition to good, square sights, but I have experienced sighting made difficult by glare, and a dot would then provide an alternate means of sight alignment. __________________ Runs off at the mouth about anything 1911 related on this site and half the time is flat out wrong.

June 21, 2018, 12:41 PM	#4
rock185 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2001 Location: Out West in Rim Country Posts: 1,091	Yes, I routinely experience this at our local South facing range. I still do best with black on black sights.....ymmv __________________ COTEP 640, NRA Life

June 24, 2018, 11:43 AM	#10
David R Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2015 Location: The swamps of WNY Posts: 753	I keep a bic lighter in my shooting bag. Used to keep the sight smoker that used calcium carbide and a drop of water. Flat black is best for me. It really helps with fixed sight guns. I have a stainless 44 special. Front sight blends in with the steel bowling pins that started out painted white. Some soot from the Bic lighter and I get lots of contrast. For bullseye, flat black sights and a six o'clock hold. Grip the gun firmly, squeeze the trigger gently. Shoot the bouncing ball. David Last edited by David R; June 24, 2018 at 11:51 AM.

June 24, 2018, 01:17 PM	#12
Erno86 Senior Member Join Date: September 22, 2012 Location: Marriottsville, Maryland Posts: 1,739	I know I should shoot in all conditions...but I rarely shoot with the sun overhead that would affect my iron sight picture. Though I try to avoid the sun, because I work outside during the weekdays and prefer the shade of the shooting range overhead canopy in the morning. My only pistol that has white sight inserts...is my Browning Hi-Power. My Kimber 1911 has tritium inserts. But I'll have to check out shooting my Hi-Power in the sun, while depending on sighting with the white inserts --- Thanks for the tip. "Blackening your sights helps but doesn't eliminate the issue." "With the gun directly overhead, it will seem like your front sight is shorter, it will cause you to compensate with a higher hold making your POI higher. With the sun to the left, it makes your front sight thinner, the left side of the front sight disappears making you compensate more to the left which shifts your POI to the left." quotes: another gun forum __________________ That rifle hanging on the wall of the working class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." --- George Orwell Last edited by Erno86; June 24, 2018 at 01:27 PM. Reason: spelling

June 21, 2018, 09:25 AM	#2
AK103K Senior Member Join Date: May 1, 2001 Posts: 10,223	Different light definitely affects your sights and how you see them. Sometimes to the point of not really being able to see them. I run into what youre describing quite a bit actually, especially on bright sunny days, just on either side of 12 noon. I find its more noticeable with the three dot night sights many of my handguns have, and its usually at the longer distance when Im trying to get a good "traditional" sight picture. At closer ranges, 15 yards and in, I normally just use the dots, so its not as much of an issue there. The sun can mess with your perception of the dots themselves too, especially with the night sights, as you normally dont see the inserts in the dots. In different light, the inserts become more apparent and can look different. The other time I have trouble with it, is with my SS revolvers that have SS sights, or sights the same color as the finish. I normally either black them out or color them anyway, so its not usually an issue. Not so much an issue with handguns, but with rifles using an aperture type rear sight, low sun over your shoulder, or any light directly on the rear of the sight itself, can make getting any sight picture very difficult, as the sun/light makes the rear of the sight brighter and more of a focus point than the aperture. It also makes looking through the aperture difficult. If youve shot any target type shooting with rifles using iron sights, you know there may be needed sight adjustments made for different lighting situations.

June 22, 2018, 01:44 PM	#5
TailGator Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 3,787	I have read that bulls eye shooters blacken their sights with soot for competition. I suppose something of this nature is why?

June 22, 2018, 02:17 PM	#6
NoSecondBest Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2009 Location: Western New York Posts: 2,736	Lots of shooters have known about this for a hundred years. If you shoot enough target outside with open sights you'll either "discover" it, hear about it, or just keep drifting all over the target and not knowing that light is playing around with your POI. Blackening your sights helps a lot. I used a carbide lighter for years when shooting silhouette and it made a huge difference in how well I shot. Even doing that, sometimes the light effected the POI. There was an old adage often repeated by the guys in the know "the strike follows the sun".

June 24, 2018, 10:42 AM	#8
Mike38 Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2009 Location: North Central Illinois Posts: 2,710	For a less messy sight blackening, try a dry erase marker in black. There are some brands that are glossy, which you don't want. There are some brands that are matte finish, which is what you want. I use one called Chesmate (I think) from Walmart.

June 24, 2018, 12:32 PM	#11
DPris Member Emeritus Join Date: August 19, 2004 Posts: 7,133	Black Rustoleum. Spray the whole gun. Uniformity is cool. Denis

June 25, 2018, 08:23 PM	#14
Drm50 Senior Member Join Date: November 10, 2014 Posts: 1,378	My handgun front sights are all Patrige Blades except a couple that have non replaceable ramps and blades. These ramp sights like on S&W m34 Kit Gun m28 Highway Patrolman and Ruger SBH get polished off on top and prevent a definite sight picture. Also the red ramps give a false picture. I carry a large felt marker to black these out. A crisp defined front sight helps me and a plain black blade is best for my eyes. The new flouresent colored optics drive me to drink. Ray Bar is fine on a shotgun but I want no part of them on rifle or pistol.

June 27, 2018, 12:58 AM	#15
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 24,973	Interesting article on the topic. https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2017/...ts-in-the-sun/ I remember coming across this topic some years ago and thinking that it made sense that bright light from one side could change the sight picture slightly and therefore shift the group on the target. It appears that it affects different people differently--and some do not appear to be affected at all. __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?