Why the 5.56 rifle for home defense?

[bamaranger]

The shotgun has some real quirks that can handicap a lot of users, especially those not totally familiar with its manual of arms. And note, I am referring primarily to a pump. And the shot gun KICKS.

The shotgun, at least in 12 ga with accepted defensive ammo, is too much of a kicker for a lot of folks. I worked a detail where I ended up training a lot of BOP (Federal Bureau of Prisons) staff. In that agency, EVERYBODY, (at least in those days) had to qual with handgun, carbine, and shotgun. A lot of women, and smaller men not acquainted with firearms, were scared to death of the shotgun. I'm talking rounds in the berm and halfway to the target at 15 yds. I've seen ladies in tears, and instances where the shooter grounded the gun and walked away.

I've watched many people, who carried a shotgun daily in a patrol vehicle, fumble with it at bi-annual qualifications. The safety, slide release, and tubular magazine require total familiarity and competency. Not everyone, including trained and paid people, are willing to get to that level. I've also seen the shotgun be too heavy, and too long, for smaller shooters, complicating the recoil issue as well. The 12 ga pump is just not the gun for everyone.

Conversely, most folks did not have trouble shooting the carbine (initially the M1, .30, and later the AR). The qual was at 50 yds, and almost everybody who could qualify with the handgun (sights and trigger!) could manage a carbine as well.

[rickyrick]

Uncle Sam put a very similarly operated rifle in my hands at 17. It was in my hands fairly often for the next decade and a half. As much as want to hate the AR15, I can handle it like it’s part of me...

[bn12gg]

Shotgun is plenty imo -- 7 1/2 sport loads out of my Browning BPS will knock just about anyone on their arse in tight quarters. Plus, drywall will minimally be penetrated protecting others in adjacent rooms.

.02. David.

Ps -- The shotgun won the West, what's not to like !

[2damnold4this]

How many of those 5.56mm "advantages" go away if you don't use just the right ammo???

More than a few people won't be using "defensive" ammo, if its even a bit more expensive.

I suspect the folks who won't use proper defensive ammo in a 5.56/.223 chambered rifle are the same people who won't use proper defensive ammo in a shotgun or handgun. If we are going to assume the person would use 55 grain FMJ American Eagle in the rifle, we should be comparing that to a shotgun stoked with #7 1/2 birdshot target loads, a revolver with 130 grain fmj round nose .38s or a semi-auto 9mm with 115 grain fmj.

I use a shotgun as a supplement to my CCW handgun as home defense firearm but I don't use target birdshot loads and I don't expect that people who make an informed decision to use an AR in 5.56/.223 would pick cheap ball ammo.

[Sharkbite]

Shotgun is plenty imo -- 7 1/2 sport loads out of my Browning BPS will knock just about anyone on their arse in tight quarters.

AUGHHHHHH......not again

[seeker_two]

I understand the issues of AR vs shotgun, but why is the AR a better choice compared to a pistol-caliber carbine?.....especially one chambered in .357 Mag, .45ACP, or .40S&W?

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[Model12Win]

Originally Posted by bn12gg

Shotgun is plenty imo -- 7 1/2 sport loads out of my Browning BPS will knock just about anyone on their arse in tight quarters. Plus, drywall will minimally be penetrated protecting others in adjacent rooms.

.02. David.

Ps -- The shotgun won the West, what's not to like !

Don't use birdshot for home defense. Lots written on why not, knowledge is power.

[Sharkbite]

why is the AR a better choice compared to a pistol-caliber carbine?.

Ok, back on track...

The high velocity, light weight, thin jacketed bullet in the 223/556 defensive ammo tends to come apart and decrease over penetration. Both through soft (fleshy) targets and building material.

The almost explosive expansion in soft tgts gives it enormous stopping power.

Contrast that with a PCC, which is still shooting a pistol bullet, just adding a little velocity. As an example, a 16” 9mm PCC might gain you 2-300fps over a 5” pistol. Not anywhere near the velocity you get from a 16” 223 rifle.

[marine6680]

I read that 223 vs 556 thread... I had dropped out of it weeks ago.

It made my head hurt.

Just so full of "wanna hate"...

The 5.56 rounds used by the military, even the top tier guys who could source some slightly better stuff, are not using the best ammo for the job.

Even the top tier guys had rules, regulations and requirements to meet. The 77gr OTM is a match bullet, not a bullet designed for lethality.

LE and SWAT definitely use their ammo and rifles enough to be statistically relevant.

The larger statistical data load from the military comes primary from standard troops using standard issue ammo, not top tier guys using slightly better ammo...

Military ammo is designed to deal with a wide variety of situations and therefore compromises in all of them... Hard barrier penetration, armor, gear like magazines... And the hamstringing of various international rules...


In the civilian world, there are less considerations, or it's less complicated on the whole... So ammo available to us is much better for close range work against typical criminal types.


I think someone mentioned using birdshot in a shotgun in that thread... EW...


So back to the topic at hand...

The first reply nailed most of it right off the bat.

I can get better lethality, and less wall penetration from a miss with properly selected 223 ammo.

Those are my primary concerns... Stopping the bad guy, and limiting lethality due to misses penetrating into multiple rooms.

For that I use 60gr vmax 223 ammo. It has good lethality, and breaks up into fragments quickly when it hits typical wallboard. (55gr vmax or the Hornady TAP that uses vmax bullets, breaks up even more in walls, but looses some lethality)

I could gain in lethality at the expense of increased wall penetration, by using something like 62-69gr expanding bullets, and it is a good choice for those not worried about the bullet leaving the house.


I would never select any other rifle caliber for the role though. While something like 308 and 7.62x39 are very effective, they lose some or most all of the limited wall penetration of lightweight 223.


Typically a rifle is easier to use and aim than a handgun under stress.

Shotguns are effective, but the larger recoil, lower capacity, increased wall penetration, and user reliant reliability factor make me leave it as a secondary choice.


Currently my HD rifle is a 16in AR.

I will be moving to a pistol soon though... A 10.5in AR pistol. A fully collapsed arm brace and 6in less barrel willake for a handier package in the house.

My ammo choice will not suffer much from the velocity loss. Though I would not suggest going shorter in my opinion.


There are definitely drawbacks of a rifle over a pistol.

The blast is louder from a rifle... Though if a silencer is an option for you, it does help a lot, even with supersonic ammo. It will at least be quieter than typical handgun ammo.

It is harder to use a free hand with a rifle. Not impossible, if you have enough strength to support a a rifle with one hand as you manipulate doors and other things. Still a pistol is easier.

A rifle does require more skill and practice to move effectily through a building. Though usually best practice is to grab your defensive firearm and stay put, not go looking for the threat... Unless mitigating circumstances dictate that you would need to.

Shotguns have all the same disadvantage as a rifle when it comes to the size factor, but without many benefits. Ammo versatility means nothing on a HD shotgun. You pick a load and have it ready. I'm not fiddling with choosing what ammo is best after the front door is kicked in.

A shotgun may have more lethality, but so what.

"My shotgun has enough lethality to kill a man twice over"

Well my AR has enough lethality to kill him once... And that's all I need.

And killing isn't my concern anyway, my concern is stopping a threat. I'm content with the bad guy rolling around on the floor crying for his mommy, so long as he isn't trying to cause more harm to me and mine.

[rickyrick]

I have built targets out of Sheetrock and 2x4s
Having birdshot bounce back in your face stings enough to cause distraction... won’t injure you but it stings real bad. Most anything else normal people might use indoors will penetrate household materials with ease.

[Model12Win]

Saw a recent LEO body cam shooting video where the cop had his AR and knocked on a guys door. Guy opens the door with a sawn off shotgun at high ready. Cop double taps him in the boiler room and he drops like a sack of potatoes. A second later as the cop steps over the body to control the scene you can clearly hear the blood from the man gushing like a faucet. DRT.

The various fools and idiots who mock the .223s effectiveness are just that. With proper tac rounds such as the Hornady TAPs and many others, you get about the same penetration as a good handgun JHP (13-15") but with all the flesh-rending power that 1200 ft-lbs of energy and 2800 FPS gives you in that same space. Permanent wound cavities are impressive and any handgun round short of a .44 magnum SJHP pales in comparison.

Plus the round breaks up in barriers like walls easier than buckshot or handgun rounds. It's really a near-perfect urban (or rural) defensive round WITH THE RIGHT AMMO. You get low recoil, rapid follow up shots, and on-target performance and stopping power that smokes anything you can realistically shoot with one hand.

As for 10" AR pistols you'd better be sure your load performs well with the reduced velocity, as in look up tests on your load from that short of a bbl (or conduct your own) and don't rely on hearsay or your own invalidated assumptions. Some loads that do what I describe above can and will fail to expand properly and will ice pick right through an attacker and the wall(s) behind him from those stunned bbls.

IMHO AR pistols give up the ballistics advantages of the .223 rifle platform and no matter what anyone might lead you to believe, you won't be as accurate or fast on target with one vs a proper carbine. With proper technique and manipulation the additional length of the carbine isn't a major problem in the role a long arm should be utilized in for home usage either.

[rickyrick]

I have to admit that the first time I saw a .223 wound I was surprised at the damage. You expect certain things with a full sized rifle cartridge, but wasn’t what I was expecting from such a small bullet. Later I learned why it is so damaging.
I know any well known hunting cartridge will stop someone pretty effectively.
Within what any decent society would consider self defense distance, the .223 would work. If I were a betting man, I’d put a months pay on that.

[johnwilliamson062]

Originally Posted by jmr40

At indoor ranges a shotgun pattern is so tight that any advantage is lost..

I agree with most of your post, but not this item. The expansion through air is certainly limited at those ranges. Once it hits a solid medium pattern expansion increases greatly. Mix in bones with soft lead and really crazy wound channels start to ahow. The ballistics are similar to emptying a 32 acp scorpion into a fist sized area. It isn't pretty. One still has to aim, or point if that terminology is preferred, but, if one hits, the damages is almost guaranteed to require a trip to the hospital.

I have seen lots of amateur trap shooters short chuck their guns on doubles or second shots and they shoot much more than the average Joe. It is a very real issue.

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[ATN082268]

Originally Posted by johnwilliamson062

One still has to aim, or point if that terminology is preferred, but, if one hits, the damages is almost guaranteed to require a trip to the hospital.

That's if they're lucky

Originally Posted by johnwilliamson062

I have seen lots of amateur trap shooters short chuck their guns on doubles or second shots and they shoot much more than the average Joe. It is a very real issue.

I'm sure people short shuck their guns but how often? I haven't done it very often and I've put through a lot of shells in my pump guns and am far from being an expert shooter. Even in the rare times when I short shuck my pump gun, it is pretty easy and quick to clear. YMMV.

[ATN082268]

Originally Posted by marine6680

A shotgun may have more lethality, but so what.

I think this is probably one of the few selling points of a shotgun over another weapon. Round for round in a home defense scenario, it is hard to beat a 12 Gauge

[FITASC]

I have seen lots of amateur trap shooters short chuck their guns on doubles or second shots and they shoot much more than the average Joe. It is a very real issue.

I have never seen anyone shooting trap doubles with a pump

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I understand the issues of AR vs shotgun, but why is the AR a better choice compared to a pistol-caliber carbine?.....especially one chambered in .357 Mag, .45ACP, or .40S&W?

5.56, even out of a pistol barrel, has more energy to work with and is capable of more effective terminal ballistics than the rounds you mention, even when they are fired out of a carbine. That doesn’t necessarily make it a better choice for any specific individual; but it is certainly a factor to consider.

I’ve got an interesting powerpoint slide in the topic of the relative terminal effects of pistol caliber carbines vs. shotguns vs. intermediate caliber rifles bs. real rifles from ARDEC’s 2017 NDIA presentation. I’ll try to post something up on it later.

[thallub]

i fire a few thousand rounds of .223/5.56mm ammo through my AR-15 rifles each year. AR-15 for home defense=NO.

i'll continue to use a shotgun and #4 buckshot.

[johnwilliamson062]

Originally Posted by FITASC

I have never seen anyone shooting trap doubles with a pump

I have shot at clubs where half the people are using the same gun they use for deer. Lots in the less elitist clay games also. Five stand for instance.

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[marine6680]

Model12

I have seen tests of my ammo done from shorter barrels, and at increased distances from a 16in barrel.

It still performs well. It actually gains a bit of penetration.


And remember AR pistols with an arm brace... Are "pistols"...

I checked up on many things before I decided to go this route. And more because I can than really need. I can maneuver my 16in carbine pretty well though my house.

[2damnold4this]

I’ve got an interesting powerpoint slide in the topic of the relative terminal effects of pistol caliber carbines vs. shotguns vs. intermediate caliber rifles bs. real rifles from ARDEC’s 2017 NDIA presentation. I’ll try to post something up on it later.

I would be interested in seeing that, if you get the chance to post it.

[davidsog]

LE and SWAT definitely use their ammo and rifles enough to be statistically relevant

Can you back that up with facts?

That statement I made about LE/SWAT not shooting enough human beings to be statistically relevant came from the folks who are looking for the next wonder bullet in 5.56mm for Tier 1 SOCOM.

Maybe they are wrong and can be pointed in the right direction! Sure save a lot of money and time looking for a replacement!!

[davidsog]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=w1M4ACrjhlk

It is easy to shoot trap doubles with a pump.

[Remington74]

So a 12 gauge doesn't expand much at HD ranges, how much does a 5.56 expand at that distance? Given a solid hit at HD ranges either one should pretty much end the game right there. A miss at HD ranges I would call them about equal. I lean towards the 12 gauge because that is what I have, besides a 38 special and a 380. By the way, I haven't short-stroked that pump in 50 years so that is low on my list of concerns, YMMV

[rickyrick]

Whenever did anyone ask about special forces?
I mean we aren’t shooting across a valley. We are talking about the living room.
Everyone needs to understand that there’s a good chance that a bad guy won’t go down with the first shot, no matter what you use. A person can very easily be taken down in one shot, but you can’t count on it. The best bet it to use something that you can shoot again accurately.
Not everyone has the option to put a rifle or shotgun in every room, especially if there’s kids around.

I guess .223 should come with warnings “This Product is NOT Suitable for Defensive Use. This ammunition will not stop aggressors. Should you attemp to use this ammunition in a defensive manner, the perpetrator will magically remain unharmed while the projectile will reek havoc on the neighborhood. The producer of this timid .223 ammunition, recommends using whatever mystery ammunition “TopTier Operators” have discovered in the generous governmental deep pockets. They keep it next to the unicorn dust.

This is the simplest question with the simplest answer but it always gets blown out of proportion.

Q: Can you use .223/5.56 ammunition for defense?
A: yes, use expanding ammunition not military ammunition.
See, it’s not that hard.