Min FPS for opening XTP and Gold dot bullets

Draciron · August 21, 2009, 10:35 AM

I'm loading 38 special for my daughter and mom. Both I'm using very low charges and mostly just wadcutters for plinking. Hopefully neither ever have to use a gun in self defense but I've loaded some XTPs and Gold dots just in case but I'm concerned they are not pushing enough FPS to actually open up. Anybody have a link or info about the min FPS necessary?

Generally I'm using 4.4 grn titegroup for the 125 gn Gold dots and 3.6 Titegroup for 158 gn XTP Test loads shoot fine at paper. I have no access to ballistic gel or other means to test those loads as potential self defense loads.

**Bud Helms** · August 21, 2009, 10:39 AM

I doubt a specific velocity that guarantees a blossom of the XTP is a known figure, even by Hornady. Too many variables, like the target media. Hornady publishes a "performance range" here:

http://www.hornady.com/media/Handgun_Bullets.pdf

Draciron · August 21, 2009, 10:50 AM

Just looking for most likely. Don't want to waste a good bullet when at that FPS a simple lead bullet will perform better.

Thanks on the link to the Hornady PDF. It was extremely helpful. The 158 gn XTPs should work well but it also ruled out the 125 gn XTPs I was considering. I'm not going to be loading with enough powder to drive the 125 gn XTPs.

**Unclenick** · August 21, 2009, 11:23 AM

If you've read Veral Smith's book or looked over the Beartooth Bullets web site or other cast bullet sights or cast bullet ammunition sights, you'll know that wide meplat cast bullets are very effective at stopping game, despite lack of expansion. The hydrodynamics of the flat nose is very effective at transferring energy. Elmer Keith's semi-wadcutter designs work on this principle and are very effective stoppers, too, though as handgun hunting bullets they give up some broadness of the meplat for better ballistics at ranges further than self-defense normally calls for.

In your shoes, having to make a low velocity defensive load in .38 Special, I would take cast 148 grain wadcutters and seat them half way out of the case (bullet base seated so it is no deeper than 0.865" forward of the outside face of the case head), then work up a load of Alliant Bullseye from about 3 grains toward about 4.5 grains maximum. Stop at any point along the way that the ladies complain they can't stand it going any higher.

If you cast, the Lee Tumble Lube 148 grain .358 wadcutter is perfect for this, as the small Micro-band grooves can work as crimp grooves, letting you choose to crimp anywhere along the bullet bearing surface. With that bullet the bottom seating depth would have the finished cartridge at 1.437" COL.

CAUTION: Note that anything over 3.2 grains of Bullseye is too much for a flush-seated wadcutter in a .38 Special case and can exceed SAAMI maximum pressure for the round. By seating the wadcutters about half way out, more space is made for the powder which lowers pressure considerably. That extra space is what allows approaching 4.5 grains of Bullseye and it is critical to doing so. The bullet must be seated out so the base is no more than 0.28" into the case to ensure that pressure stays within SAAMI limits for .38 Special. Neither the board nor the poster take any responsibility for misapplication of this information.

PCJim · August 21, 2009, 12:13 PM

Unclenick, just for clarification, are you referring to 148gr HBWC or DEWC bullets, or would the hollow base provide enough extra space to matter?

SL1 · August 21, 2009, 03:42 PM

For high pressure loads, wadcutters that DO NOT HAVE a hollow base would be best. The reason is that they go down the barrel with less friction because of the way the powder cases are pushing on the bullet metal.

But, with respect to internal space left for the powder, it really doesn't matter what the bujllet's base shape is. If the wadcutters weigh the same, and are seated with the flat nose the same distance out of the case mouth, then the lead that is inside the case takes up the same amount of space, no matter how it is shaped. (Yes, we can quibble about the space used for luber rings on some bullets and not on others, but that is a minor issue compared to the amount of bullet that is left outside the case when they are seated to the COL of the other bullet types like SWCs, RNs, etc.)

SL1

SL1 · August 21, 2009, 03:56 PM

Draciron,

Speer has some Gold Dot bullets that are designed for the .38 Special and short barrels. The 110 grain GDHP-SB is loaded to about 900 fps at regular .38 Special pressures and the 135 GDHP-SB is loaded to the same velocities at +P pressure levels.

If those are too much recoil for your gals, then I think Unclenick's suggestion of using full (not semi-) wadcutters loaded out so that they are about the same length as regular cartridges will be the best defense load that you can make for them. But, the bullets need to be a little hard to keep from getting "rounded" as they penetrate, which won't cut as wide a wound cavity as a sharp-edged flat nose. So I suggest cast rather than swaged wadcutters. But, you don't want "hard cast" because they would be too hard for the pressures you are using and would not expand to fill the bore. Without filling the bore, hot gases blow by and cause leading.

SL1

August 21, 2009, 10:35 AM	#1
Draciron Member Join Date: May 19, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 35	Min FPS for opening XTP and Gold dot bullets I'm loading 38 special for my daughter and mom. Both I'm using very low charges and mostly just wadcutters for plinking. Hopefully neither ever have to use a gun in self defense but I've loaded some XTPs and Gold dots just in case but I'm concerned they are not pushing enough FPS to actually open up. Anybody have a link or info about the min FPS necessary? Generally I'm using 4.4 grn titegroup for the 125 gn Gold dots and 3.6 Titegroup for 158 gn XTP Test loads shoot fine at paper. I have no access to ballistic gel or other means to test those loads as potential self defense loads.

August 21, 2009, 11:23 AM	#4
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	If you've read Veral Smith's book or looked over the Beartooth Bullets web site or other cast bullet sights or cast bullet ammunition sights, you'll know that wide meplat cast bullets are very effective at stopping game, despite lack of expansion. The hydrodynamics of the flat nose is very effective at transferring energy. Elmer Keith's semi-wadcutter designs work on this principle and are very effective stoppers, too, though as handgun hunting bullets they give up some broadness of the meplat for better ballistics at ranges further than self-defense normally calls for. In your shoes, having to make a low velocity defensive load in .38 Special, I would take cast 148 grain wadcutters and seat them half way out of the case (bullet base seated so it is no deeper than 0.865" forward of the outside face of the case head), then work up a load of Alliant Bullseye from about 3 grains toward about 4.5 grains maximum. Stop at any point along the way that the ladies complain they can't stand it going any higher. If you cast, the Lee Tumble Lube 148 grain .358 wadcutter is perfect for this, as the small Micro-band grooves can work as crimp grooves, letting you choose to crimp anywhere along the bullet bearing surface. With that bullet the bottom seating depth would have the finished cartridge at 1.437" COL. CAUTION: Note that anything over 3.2 grains of Bullseye is too much for a flush-seated wadcutter in a .38 Special case and can exceed SAAMI maximum pressure for the round. By seating the wadcutters about half way out, more space is made for the powder which lowers pressure considerably. That extra space is what allows approaching 4.5 grains of Bullseye and it is critical to doing so. The bullet must be seated out so the base is no more than 0.28" into the case to ensure that pressure stays within SAAMI limits for .38 Special. Neither the board nor the poster take any responsibility for misapplication of this information. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle Last edited by Unclenick; August 21, 2009 at 11:36 AM. Reason: added image

August 21, 2009, 10:39 AM	#2
Bud Helms Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 1999 Location: Middle Georgia, USA Posts: 13,198	I doubt a specific velocity that guarantees a blossom of the XTP is a known figure, even by Hornady. Too many variables, like the target media. Hornady publishes a "performance range" here: http://www.hornady.com/media/Handgun_Bullets.pdf

August 21, 2009, 10:50 AM	#3
Draciron Member Join Date: May 19, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 35	Just looking for most likely. Don't want to waste a good bullet when at that FPS a simple lead bullet will perform better. Thanks on the link to the Hornady PDF. It was extremely helpful. The 158 gn XTPs should work well but it also ruled out the 125 gn XTPs I was considering. I'm not going to be loading with enough powder to drive the 125 gn XTPs.

August 21, 2009, 12:13 PM	#5
PCJim Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2008 Location: FL Posts: 570	Unclenick, just for clarification, are you referring to 148gr HBWC or DEWC bullets, or would the hollow base provide enough extra space to matter?

August 21, 2009, 03:42 PM	#6
SL1 Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2007 Posts: 2,001	For high pressure loads, wadcutters that DO NOT HAVE a hollow base would be best. The reason is that they go down the barrel with less friction because of the way the powder cases are pushing on the bullet metal. But, with respect to internal space left for the powder, it really doesn't matter what the bujllet's base shape is. If the wadcutters weigh the same, and are seated with the flat nose the same distance out of the case mouth, then the lead that is inside the case takes up the same amount of space, no matter how it is shaped. (Yes, we can quibble about the space used for luber rings on some bullets and not on others, but that is a minor issue compared to the amount of bullet that is left outside the case when they are seated to the COL of the other bullet types like SWCs, RNs, etc.) SL1

August 21, 2009, 03:56 PM	#7
SL1 Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2007 Posts: 2,001	Draciron, Speer has some Gold Dot bullets that are designed for the .38 Special and short barrels. The 110 grain GDHP-SB is loaded to about 900 fps at regular .38 Special pressures and the 135 GDHP-SB is loaded to the same velocities at +P pressure levels. If those are too much recoil for your gals, then I think Unclenick's suggestion of using full (not semi-) wadcutters loaded out so that they are about the same length as regular cartridges will be the best defense load that you can make for them. But, the bullets need to be a little hard to keep from getting "rounded" as they penetrate, which won't cut as wide a wound cavity as a sharp-edged flat nose. So I suggest cast rather than swaged wadcutters. But, you don't want "hard cast" because they would be too hard for the pressures you are using and would not expand to fill the bore. Without filling the bore, hot gases blow by and cause leading. SL1