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October 28, 2010, 04:17 AM | #1 |
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I have been thinking about making black powder for a few years and too the first step
I bought the chemicals a few months back and waited for the ball mills to be in stock.
There don't seem to be many places to buy a small mill so I have been checking THIS site almost every day trying to buy a ball mill. They had some in stock and I placed an order but by the next day they were sold out. I ordered it with non-sparking LEAD BALLS and on running a very small batch to start out. I am waiting for it to stop raining because I plan on running the mill in my driveway about 20 to 30 yards from my house. Had anyone used a ball mill, and if so any hints or tips? PS I did read the hints and tips thread but I am interested if anyone has experience with this type ball mill. Last edited by silvercorvette; October 28, 2010 at 04:40 AM. |
October 29, 2010, 01:31 AM | #2 |
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I got interested in homemade BP a couple of months ago and bought a Lortone 3A rock tumbler to use as a ball mill. About the same size as your machine, with a rubber barrel (it looks like your machine uses a rubber barrel too). I have been using it with .451 lead balls.
It kinda upset me at first. Some of the material got packed into the inside surface of the drum. I tried cleaning the drum, and ran another batch of charcoal/sulfur in the thing. Then it really freaked me out - the material coming out of the drum weighed more than the material I had put into the drum. Maybe it was some of the leftover stuff from the first run? Or maybe the balls were abrading rubber particles from the drum's inner surface? I don't know. I finally got some 3" plastic pipe fittings and made a little container which fits inside the rubber drum. Now I am sure that I'm not leaving any material behind, and I am absolutely sure that I'm not abrading the inner surface of the rubber drum. |
October 29, 2010, 01:45 AM | #3 |
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Thanks any suggestions are appreciated.
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October 29, 2010, 02:39 AM | #4 |
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WOW! Plastic pipe, Sealed rubber tumbler drum, Black Powder & .45 Lead Balls! Sounds like an IED to me!
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October 29, 2010, 07:25 AM | #5 |
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Please explain, you need a spark to set it off, as far as I know rubber, plastic and lead do not make sparks.
I plan on making very small batches and putting the mill in the driveway far away from my house |
October 29, 2010, 08:41 AM | #6 |
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You know it is dangerous but still plan to pursure the project? Hard to understand. At least your widow will have a home.
Sparks are unreliable for igniting BP as they are often too 'cold'. But almost anything else can set it off. Heat, compression, shock, fire are the common igniters. There really is no point in doing this. As was pointed out in another recent similar thread, you may also be in violation of ATF regs and laws for manufacturing explosives and/or bombs. Bad idea all the way around. |
October 29, 2010, 09:00 AM | #7 |
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I would make BP if I had to, and I can understand how it would be a fun project but I wouldn't plan on making BP on a continuing basis. Using ball mills of the right type are not dangerous if you practice safety, and sounds like you are by having it away from your house and only making small batches in a mill designed for making BP. You will probably never, no matter how good the ingredients, make anything as good as the worst commercially available BP. As a fun project, I'm interested to see your results, but this practice won't save you money or improve your aim (IMHO). Have fun though, and post videos on youtube!
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October 29, 2010, 09:38 AM | #8 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
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October 29, 2010, 10:13 AM | #9 |
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noelf2 summed it up well, since I made a choice to shoot BP I want to get back to the basics. I have a few other things that will keep me too busy to use the mill so don't expect any reports for a while. The mill will be set to a timer so I will not be near it when I turn it off or on, I will be inside a brick house a couple hundred feet away while it is running.
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October 29, 2010, 10:35 AM | #10 |
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eoelf2, the comment about laws was qualified. I stated it was mentioned in other threads. My opinion is nowhere to be found on that subject.
As for heat, compression, shock, this has been tested with published results in the National Muzzle Loading Association magazine Muzzle Blasts several times over the years. I did not make it up. But, you are not the first I have encountered in nearly a half century of using muzzle loaders and black powder who will defend unsafe practices until their dying breath. Your right, I guess. Make sure your life insurance premiums are paid up. |
October 29, 2010, 10:42 AM | #11 |
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Rifleman1776 I asked for suggestions to improve my safety margin, I already listed the precautions I intend to take could you please point out anything I may have overlooked?
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October 29, 2010, 11:38 AM | #12 |
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Silvercorvette, my main interest is learning how to do it, so I'm sticking with small batches too. Two ounces of finished product per batch. What's working best for me is to run two ounces of the charcoal/sulfur mixture in the ball mill with eight ounces of lead balls. That doesn't drag the machine down at all. Eight hours of tumbling time seems adequate.
Two ounces of charcoal/sulfur is enough to make four 2-oz batches of BP. Other tips? People with a lot more experience than me are emphatic that the type of charcoal is critical. I'm using willow charcoal. For safety's sake, don't ball mill the potassium nitrate together with the charcoal/sulfur. In fact, I have decided against ball-milling the potassium nitrate at all. The preparation method which seems to work best for me might be described as an "abbreviated precipitate" method. In a small 1-qt saucepan, I mix 200 grains of the charcoal/sulfur with 300 grains of water. Not as easy as it sounds - the stuff does not want to mix - I tamp on it with a wooden dowel for 10 or 15 minutes until it reaches a "thick liquid" consistency. Then the pan goes on a hotplate - when the liquid starts bubbling, I stir in 600 grains of potassium nitrate (at a temperature of 212F, 300 grains of water will dissolve up to 750 grains of potassium nitrate). This is why I don't bother with ball-milling the potassium nitrate. I pour the hot liquid onto a wide Pyrex dish - as it starts to cool, it turns into a sludge immediately - I spread the sludge out across the dish, about 1/4-inch thickness, and let it dry. We don't have those 20-ton metal wheels to compress the powder, so the homemade BP will not be as dense as the store-bought stuff. One CC of my homebrew powder has about 3/4 the weight of one CC of Goex 3Fg. However, on a weight-for-weight basis, the homemade BP seems to be about as energetic as the store-bought stuff. Keep us posted. I'm just a beginner too, and I'd like to compare notes. |
October 29, 2010, 12:04 PM | #13 | |
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Rifleman1776 said:
Quote:
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October 29, 2010, 12:13 PM | #14 |
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Thanks for the info, I bought the charcoal from the same company I bought the mill from. This was copied and pasted from their site
Charcoal - Granulated chemical formula: C ( granulated powder ) Top quality granulated Charcoal from the Willow tree, approximately 36 mesh. Mainly used in pyrotechnic formulas, this coarser Granulated Charcoal produces very long lasting orange sparks in firework pieces. Ideal for adding a long spark trail effect to Fountains, Stars, Rockets, etc. I have been waiting months for them to get the mills in stock and when I placed my order they were literally out of stock again over night. I am just happy I was able to get the mill even though I won't be using it for a while so don't expect any reports for a while. |
October 29, 2010, 12:40 PM | #15 |
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You know what I like about you silvercorvette? You are an AmeriCAN not an AmeriCan't like some folks. As long as you follow safe and proper practices I don't see why this can't be a fun and satisfying project. Don't let the flamethrowers get to you with their "hit-n-run" comments. They typically add little to no value to the topic at hand. With their thought process mankind would still be living in caves. Many of them lack that AmeriCAN pioneer spirit that made this country great. Others boldly go where mankind has never gone before while the AmeriCan'ts let others pave the way for them.
p.s. I find the following previously posted comment to be outrageous and uncalled for. Very disturbing! That person should retract the comment and offer you an apology. "At least your widow will have a home." |
October 29, 2010, 12:50 PM | #16 |
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noelf2 than you for the private message
Had I know I could have saved some money Last edited by silvercorvette; October 29, 2010 at 12:58 PM. |
October 29, 2010, 10:49 PM | #17 | |
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Quote:
I used tecnical grade potasium nitrate, lab sulphur and air float characol. Use brass or lead balls and I would not use plastic with it since plastic can cause static. I have never seen BP in plastic cans. All of the cans of BP that I have pruchased were in metal ones.
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October 29, 2010, 11:04 PM | #18 |
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I bought every thing from this site
http://unitednuclear.com/ , mill, balls and chemicals. After 9-11 they stopped selling Potassium Nitrate and just started a short time ago. I had the chemicals but had to wait for them to get mill in stock. They have been around for a long time and I believe they have chemicals that are good quality. I am doing this as a fun experiment, by the time I add up the cost of the lead ball, mill and chemicals I am sure I could have bought better quality BP for a lot less but that isn't the reason why I decided to do it. Heck for what I paid for the balls and mill I probably could have bought enough powder to supply my shooting needs for the rest of my life. |
October 29, 2010, 11:04 PM | #19 | |
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If safety is our god then we will never have enough of it. Just my opinion.
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October 29, 2010, 11:25 PM | #20 | |
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Quote:
Last edited by silvercorvette; October 30, 2010 at 07:09 AM. |
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October 30, 2010, 09:27 AM | #21 | |
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Quote:
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October 30, 2010, 10:06 AM | #22 | |
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October 30, 2010, 12:14 PM | #23 |
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It kinda surprises me that people are having such knee-jerk reactions to the idea of running a couple ounces of charcoal & sulfur in a ball mill. I took a spoonful of ball-milled charcoal/sulfur mix and tried to ignite it with an open flame. Not very exciting. It smoldered & smoked a little where the flame hit it. Smelled like sulfur.
Hey, guess what, it's not blackpowder without the potassium nitrate! In the few weeks I've been experimenting with it, I've tried three different preparation methods. Some are better than others. I chronographed a couple of shots with each batch, comparing them to Goex 3Fg. The best homemade powder was right up there with the Goex, on a "weight" basis (eg, 20 gr of homemade vs. 20 gr of Goex). The biggest difference I can see is that the homemade powder is less dense than the Goex. A powder measure designed for 40 gr of factory BP will only throw 30 gr of the homebrew stuff. In firearms like percussion revolvers and breechloading rifles (eg, Sharps, Smith) where chamber volumes are constrained, the reduced density of homemade BP might be an issue.... in this respect, I would agree that factory-made powder is superior.... however, I can still pour 30 gr of homebrew into the chamber of my Uberti .44 Remington's cylinder, and the "fluffy" homebrew powder compresses easily. I don't know anything about loading blackpowder into rocket engines. It sounds like it might be a lot more complex than firearms powder. Just for the record, the last blackpowder I purchased from Graf & Sons came packaged in plastic containers. |
October 30, 2010, 07:44 PM | #24 |
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silvercorvette and mrappe - yes, you guys, and me too, survived what many would today howl about being unsafe. Unfortunately, others didn't survive, and they aren't here to tell about it. Your survival, and mine, doesn't by any stretch of logic mean that it's actually ok to continue to intentionally pursue unsafe practices.
That being said, it's certainly possible to manufacture black powder safely. Understand the physics of the materials and the process and there's no reason why it can't be done safely and efficiently. |
October 30, 2010, 08:17 PM | #25 |
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I made 2 half-pound batches of BP a couple of years ago. Used a rubber-drum rock tumbler and a bunch of .46 balls that I cast from hard lead for the ball mill. I used crude garden chemicals for the KNO3 and the sulfur, and I cooked my own charcoal using white cedar. I mixed it all up (including the saltpeter) and milled it for about 24 hours, then dampened the powder with some watered-down rubbing alcohol and pressed it thru a metal kitchen sieve.
When it was thoroughly dried, it worked pretty well in .45 Colt cartridges. The first test was less than spectacular (but it worked) because the powder was still too damp. I think the limiting factor for my powder was the stump remover that I used for saltpeter. The sulfur is the least important ingredient, so 90% S from the garden center should be fine. The charcoal is the most important ingredient. I thought there was a sticky thread around here somewhere about homemade BP.
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