Just and Idea

TEX · December 14, 2009, 06:29 PM

Just and Idea

Has anyone here ever thought about taking 9x23 brass (Winchester’s idea, I believe) then trimming it down to 9x21 or 356TSW dimensions and seeing how fast they could push a 9mm bullet. Sounds a little nuts, I know, but here is what got me thinking on this.

I am a Glock fan: carry one daily and compete with one. I have the 40 caliber version as I think it is every bit as potent as a 45ACP in the right defensive load and just a little more potent than a standard 9x19 defensive load. Please don’t go into the “it’s what you hit not what you hit it with” tangent – you will get no argument from me. I fully agree that generally a .22 rimfire in the eye socket will stop a bad guy quicker than a 44 Magnum in bicep. That said, as you up in caliber, you go down in rounds in the magazine. From what I have read and studied, the old wheel gun 357 Magnum was at the very top of threat stoppers, and although the 356Sig comes close to duplicating this cartridge, you are still at the 40S&W round count in the magazine.

Most guns that are chambered for 9x19, could easily be chambered for 9x21 or 356TSW (9x21.5 I think) and as long as a long round nose bullet was not used it would probably function justr fine in the magazine designed for a 9x19. In fact Glock did make a very few 9x21 gun in Europe.

If you look at ballistics tables, the 9x21 or 356TSW are only developing about 100-150fps more speed than the 9x19. I think this is because it is about the limits of what the brass will handle. The 9x23 has a very strong base and web in the brass, which in my way of thinking would allow you to load it pretty darn hot if trimmed down to 9x21 or 356TSW. I am just guessing here, but I suspect you could push a 124gr bullet at nearly 1,500fps, a 115gr bullet at near 1,700fps and a 90gr or 100gr at nearly 2,000fps without blowing out the case bottom.

In the end you would have a handgun slightly more powerful than a real 357 Magnum and also the high round count provided by a 9mm cartridge.

Curious as to if anyone has toyed with this idea or actually done it. I met a father and son at a gun show that said they were shooting 9x19 guns (1911 style) with 124gr bullets at 1,400+fps. I did not think to ask if they were using standard 9x19 brass, etc., but that is about the fastest I ever heard of a 124gr moving out of a 9x19 case, even with a 5” barrel.

QBall45 · December 14, 2009, 06:57 PM

The first thing that comes to mind is the case wall thickens as you go from mouth to head. This may likely cause issues as you trim to get the length you want...the more ya trim the closer to the case head the base of the bullet gets. Not sure that you'd need to trim enough that this would be a problem...its just a thought I had reading your post.

Good luck with your adventure.

SL1 · December 14, 2009, 07:28 PM

that a 9x21 might make 1400 fps with a 24 grain bullet with peak pressure as low as 45,000 psi with the right powders in a 5" barrel. That is about 10,000 psi over SAAMI pressures for the 9x19 Luger. (But, othr popular powders can take peakt pressure to 70,000 psi to make that velocity with that bullet weight.

Some people load 9x19 "long" to simulate the 9x21 with a cheaper case. I don't know if those folks have the same facial evidence as the folks who load 38 Super to "major" power factor. I would think that these rounds would really bash a gun that wasn't specifically modified for them.

You might get more info on sites that cater to competition shooters.

SL1

December 14, 2009, 06:29 PM	#1
TEX Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 1999 Location: Texas Posts: 197	Just and Idea Just and Idea Has anyone here ever thought about taking 9x23 brass (Winchester’s idea, I believe) then trimming it down to 9x21 or 356TSW dimensions and seeing how fast they could push a 9mm bullet. Sounds a little nuts, I know, but here is what got me thinking on this. I am a Glock fan: carry one daily and compete with one. I have the 40 caliber version as I think it is every bit as potent as a 45ACP in the right defensive load and just a little more potent than a standard 9x19 defensive load. Please don’t go into the “it’s what you hit not what you hit it with” tangent – you will get no argument from me. I fully agree that generally a .22 rimfire in the eye socket will stop a bad guy quicker than a 44 Magnum in bicep. That said, as you up in caliber, you go down in rounds in the magazine. From what I have read and studied, the old wheel gun 357 Magnum was at the very top of threat stoppers, and although the 356Sig comes close to duplicating this cartridge, you are still at the 40S&W round count in the magazine. Most guns that are chambered for 9x19, could easily be chambered for 9x21 or 356TSW (9x21.5 I think) and as long as a long round nose bullet was not used it would probably function justr fine in the magazine designed for a 9x19. In fact Glock did make a very few 9x21 gun in Europe. If you look at ballistics tables, the 9x21 or 356TSW are only developing about 100-150fps more speed than the 9x19. I think this is because it is about the limits of what the brass will handle. The 9x23 has a very strong base and web in the brass, which in my way of thinking would allow you to load it pretty darn hot if trimmed down to 9x21 or 356TSW. I am just guessing here, but I suspect you could push a 124gr bullet at nearly 1,500fps, a 115gr bullet at near 1,700fps and a 90gr or 100gr at nearly 2,000fps without blowing out the case bottom. In the end you would have a handgun slightly more powerful than a real 357 Magnum and also the high round count provided by a 9mm cartridge. Curious as to if anyone has toyed with this idea or actually done it. I met a father and son at a gun show that said they were shooting 9x19 guns (1911 style) with 124gr bullets at 1,400+fps. I did not think to ask if they were using standard 9x19 brass, etc., but that is about the fastest I ever heard of a 124gr moving out of a 9x19 case, even with a 5” barrel. __________________ If 10% is good enough for God, why isn't it good enough for the Internal Revenue Service?

December 14, 2009, 07:28 PM	#3
SL1 Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2007 Posts: 2,001	QuicLOAD indicates that a 9x21 might make 1400 fps with a 24 grain bullet with peak pressure as low as 45,000 psi with the right powders in a 5" barrel. That is about 10,000 psi over SAAMI pressures for the 9x19 Luger. (But, othr popular powders can take peakt pressure to 70,000 psi to make that velocity with that bullet weight. Some people load 9x19 "long" to simulate the 9x21 with a cheaper case. I don't know if those folks have the same facial evidence as the folks who load 38 Super to "major" power factor. I would think that these rounds would really bash a gun that wasn't specifically modified for them. You might get more info on sites that cater to competition shooters. SL1

December 14, 2009, 06:57 PM	#2
QBall45 Senior Member Join Date: April 5, 2008 Location: South Central Minnesota Posts: 584	The first thing that comes to mind is the case wall thickens as you go from mouth to head. This may likely cause issues as you trim to get the length you want...the more ya trim the closer to the case head the base of the bullet gets. Not sure that you'd need to trim enough that this would be a problem...its just a thought I had reading your post. Good luck with your adventure.