Shoot out at Pawn Shop, Tactics worth reflection

[Deaf Smith]

1. If you carry a revolver, either carry TWO or a very quick reload.
2. If you carry a revolver you have better be a real good shot cause
you don't have many do-overs.
3. Spray and pray does not work.
4. A reliable revolver beats a unreliable semi-automatic (but a real reliable semi-auto is even better.)

If I worked in a pawn/gun shop I would have a bullet proof vest under a very loose shirt (like a Hawaiian shirt.) And yes a good reliable gun.

They also need a few armored display racks (armored and UNKNOWN to the bad guys) so they can hide behind them if need be.

Note with just five shots the clerk drew blood. Then two thugs with semi-autos and more ammo didn't.

Now does that mean a revolver is better than a semi-auto? No.
But it's the first few shots that matter, not the 10th, 20th, 30th.... as for as personal defense.

And yes, I'd have packed my Glock if I worked there as it is very well known for it's reliability and it DOES hold more ammo, but only cause it holds it's 'reload' already inside the gun.

And read about Lance Thomas (google him) and his three gunfights at his jewelry store. Lots of lessons there.

Deaf

[Blue Duck]

I believe she was actually shot at 3 times by the perp that jumped over the glass display case. All of his rounds hit the display case with the last one exploding that book and the mostly spent bullet hit her in the chest. She has a pretty bad bruise, they said. I suppose it could have knocked the wind out of her.

[thump_rrr]

Kudos to the 3 people working there for being able to go home at the end of the day even though it was mostly due to luck.

My question is how often if ever did these people practice shooting?
We criticize tactics and fundamentals but we are probably in the very small minority that shoot on a regular basis.

Single layer entry doors make it far too easy for robbery suspects to escape.
One store in our area has double barred doors which require you to be buzzed in. Both doors are interlocked so that they cannot be opened at the same time.

Bottom line is that better holsters and more practice is needed.
I think God might have been paying a little extra attention that day.

[skizzums]

does this change anyone's views on .38? between this and other stories, I am just starting to feel it's an inadequate SD round. maybe it's just how it played out, maybe a bigger or faster calibers wouldn't have made a difference, but it sure makes me wonder

[johnelmore]

Pawn shops, by nature, are risky places. Lots of questionable characters. It sounds like their security posture was too loose.

The .38 is a fine round which served the police for decades. I think it was the users and not the rounds? The pistol gets stuck in the pocket? Huh?

[Chris32600]

There is no reason to be pocket carrying anything in that line of work, if that was indeed the case. I would've been carrying IWB, preferably OWB if possible. Except for the woman, the other shop owners/employees could not get to their weapons in time. This could've been disastrous. They are all very lucky.

One would hope they would rethink their response tactics and carry methods after this, but if they had already been in this sort of thing before and were still that inept, then I wouldn't bet on it.

[aherrera773]

The clerks probably believed that they would have more time to react when confronted with a life or death situation. Even though they were lucky. Their pistol choices types of ammo and time spent practicing will be permanently altered due to this incident. Its amazing how fast a situation can spiral out of control and I'm glad that working people came out with only minor injuries. Another lesson is even though you outnumber the threat (3 clerks 2 bad guys).If the people you depend on for backup aren't aware or can't get their guns out it's the same as if your the one being outnumbered.

[JohnKSa]

I wonder if anyone here will do better, in real time, real life.

Whether I do or not, if this hypothetical encounter takes place on video, I hope others will look at what I do and try to learn from it.

Very few of us will ever be in a gunfight, and the very few of us who are will almost certainly never be in a second one. It pays to learn from what others do (good or bad) in gunfights given that we almost certainly won't have the opportunity to learn from our own gunfights.

You really believe that she would have been better off with a jammed semi-auto, like the gun the robber used?

I would hope that she, like any of us, would have practiced with her chosen self-defense gun enough to know how to insure it operates properly and to be certain that the ammunition she chose was reliable in the gun.

To answer your question, no, she would not have been better off with a jammed semi-auto. But then, there's no reason to assume that a working revolver or a jammed semi-auto would be her only two choices.

To provide a more thorough answer, just about the only non-LEO I'm aware of who has had a number of gunfights (Lance Thomas), used a 5 shot revolver in his first gunfight, revolverS in his second gunfight and then switched to autopistolS thereafter. After his first gunfight, he never relied on a single handgun again.

The Woman (older lady and wife of the husband, starts shooting at the perp as he jumps over the counter to get to her husband.

I hadn't quite put it together that the one bad guy was going after her husband. That means the woman was basically point-shooting in the general direction of her husband. I'm glad things worked out well.

[45_auto]

Originally Posted by southjk

As far as limp wristing, just don't buy a Glock.

Are Glocks the only semi-autos that are affected by limp-wristing?

[Double Naught Spy]

The old lady falling over when 'shot' was a bit comical, obviously not a physiological effect, but may have saved her life as well. She was pretty well out of the fight at that moment anyway.

It sounds like a small operation where they should be buzzing people in rather than letting them walk in.

Why? They would have just buzzed them in. Buzz-in system are not very conducive to a customer base where people often need to carry in and out heavy or bulky items, as is done in a pawn shop.

Single layer entry doors make it far too easy for robbery suspects to escape.
One store in our area has double barred doors which require you to be buzzed in. Both doors are interlocked so that they cannot be opened at the same time.

Trapping people inside the space with you who are trying to kill you can be a very bad thing.

All of the gun stores Ive been to the store people open carry and this sounds like an operation where they should do the same.

I didn't see in the stories where open carry was not allowed. Wearing a gun openly can just mean that the bad guys shoot you first. Notice that the bad guys went after the perceived threats first, the men, thinking the old lady didn't have teeth.

Pawn shops, by nature, are risky places. Lots of questionable characters.

No, no more so than a LOT of businesses. Pawn shops may deal with a lot more of the downtrodden population, but the vast majority are good people.

If the shop workers got a bad vibe from the robbers, I wonder why they didn't make their way to the more potent weapons concealed in the shop or at least get their hands on their revolvers?

Because lots of people in pawn shops don't behave normally. You get bad vibes from people several times a day, every day.

And read about Lance Thomas (google him) and his three gunfights at his jewelry store. Lots of lessons there.

Lots of questionable characters in jewelry stores?

Lance was shot mulitple times. He was in 4 actual battles. In the fourth, he had double locking doors.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDgHDN_ANi4

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One thing the folks in the pawn shop did right was to not be bunched. That was sufficient to cause the robbers to have to split up and it made fighting back more effective for the old lady.

[Double Naught Spy]

Is this the place where I should ask...

"Is five shots enough?"

[riflemen]

A friend of mine that is a local gun dealer and fine metal broker {no jewelry but he sells and buys silver, gold, ect} had a company come in and go through his security from top to bottom. They gave him a plan from mild to wild, mild being improving his video system and training and arming all employees and wild being armed guards, state of the art video, a fast door, safe room, lol it would have added $200K in up front costs and almost $50K in annual salaries...

He went in the middle with training, security and video updates, having all employees wearing vests, and a pretty cool device that opened the outside doors with a push of a button {also has a handicapped button outside the store}, not sure if its a proven method but it would allow anyone who wanted out a faster exit be it a victim or bad gun, either way the point is to get them out of your store or neutralise them.

His staff carries FN 5.7's he provides {only 4 guys}, and they are good with them things, I see them at the range and I can tell you if them 2 boys in the video went in his store the news story would have been much different.. The sad part is not all stores have the resources for improved security, good thing that guys gun jammed, can anyone see what it was , glock, sigma, ECT???


Also I don't like the other guy in the video saying the store owners need to take his neighbors into consideration, thats not right, Ill bet when hes getting shot at from his store that is the first place he will run....

[TimSr]

"Is five shots enough?"

Bernard Goetz took out 5 muggers with a six shooter, and shot one of them twice just because he had a round left lover, so I guess it is enough if they find their mark. I'm not exactly sure of the FL threshhold, but at some point more than six bad guys is considered a zombie thread and you are just supposed to not happen to be there.

[2damnold4this]

Because lots of people in pawn shops don't behave normally. You get bad vibes from people several times a day, every day.

Why would that make a difference? Does it cause people to become complacent and not act when they get bad vibes?

[Jim567]

At the very least have a buzz in door -- so ---
Have a sign outside that says, no sunglasses or raised hoodies, ect. You don't get buzzed in if you don't comply.
The folks should have been on high alert when the shoppers were mostly covered with hats AND hoodies up.
One brave lady! Don't mess with old folks!!!

[Double Naught Spy]

Bernard Goetz took out 5 muggers with a six shooter, and shot one of them twice just because he had a round left lover, so I guess it is enough if they find their mark.

Very poor example, and it was 4, not 5. They never actually physically attacked him and they were not armed. Like stopping the old lady with a shot that didn't even break her skin, her shot penetrated the arm of the gunman who turned and shot at her. She crumpled. He didn't.

Why would that make a difference? Does it cause people to become complacent and not act when they get bad vibes?

Bad "vibes" is something of a joke in such a situation where it recurs over and over again. You start to realize that the reasons for getting bad vibes are not because something bad is apt to happen. That isn't being complacent. That is a learned behavior. You also learn, as the examples Old Lance above had experienced, bad vibes are a poor indicator something will happen. His robberies were largely business as usual events, until the robbery started.

The robbers in the pawn shop video aren't really any different than countless other customers that are apt to come in the shop. It is easy to say they look nefarious AFTER the event, but they just look like other customers.

Its chilly weather. Hoodies are going to be up this time of year.

[2damnold4this]

You think they probably didn't get a bad vibe except in hindsight? That could be.

[Jim567]

Its chilly weather. Hoodies are going to be up this time of year.

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That's why the sign and buzz in door.
Some of the liquor stores around here, even in the good neighborhoods, have similar signs.

[Malcolm Reynolds]

When stuff like this happens, I think of a quote from one of my favorite books when I was a kid, "The Magician's Nephew." A fella is asked if he'd be willing to fight on the front lines in a war and he says this:

"... a chap don’t exactly know till he’s been tried. I dare say I might turn out ever such a soft ‘un. Never did no fighting except with my fists. I’d try — that is, I ‘ope I’d try — to do my bit."

There's no harm in discussing what could have been done better. And I think it's helpful to review it and learn from it. I won't mock people as "internet commandos" for thinking ahead about what they'd do. But things never go down like you'd plan. And honestly, I just don't know how well I'd handle myself in a gun fight. Sure, that's why we practice. Just in case. But you never really know. I try to have a gun and level of proficiency that I can trust. But in the end, I just gotta trust God and then hope. Stuff is going to go wrong sometimes.

[Grant D]

After watching that video yesterday, I have my Ruger LC9 in a Crossbreed holster, and extra magazine in my front pocket, instead of my model 36 on my hip.
After watching that with the two thugs, made me think about carrying just a five shot revolver.
I guess I probably will in the future, but with a LCP in my back pocket for a BUG.

[captneil19]

I believe that if the peeps had any sense the owners a helper would be dead.
The only reason they didn't use autos so no shell casings could be found.with the given situation it was a perfect setup an them folks should be dead.
They need a plan,an not carry 6 guns,also they should be able to get to backup weapons anywhere in the store,in case their weapons fail.
If I were them I would have a button that would lock the door,in case of a shoot out,that way I could insure that I could kill them,an make it harder for perpss to getaway even if I was shot.
6 guns in pockets or pants is a no no

[Pond, James Pond]

The only reason they didn't use autos so no shell casings could be found.

Who? The robbers?! They had semi-auto pistols!
They'll spit out casings as readily as any auto.

I could insure that I could kill them

I believe that is called murder... Typically frowned upon.

But things never go down like you'd plan.

Reminds me of a surprisingly insightful quote from a certain Mike Tyson. I believe he said " Everybody's got a plan. Right up until they get punched in the face." Probably very true.

[Venom1956]

captneil19, There is so much wrong in that post... I'd suggest removing it. For your own good.

[aherrera773]

Captniel19Why would you want to lock the bad guys in with you?

[JohnKSa]

Are Glocks the only semi-autos that are affected by limp-wristing?

Not at all. They are probably one of the most common polymer framed pistol and polymer framed pistols (any pistols with very light frames--particularly in relatively powerful calibers) tend to be more affected by limp-wristing.

...that way I could insure that I could kill them...

The LEGAL use of deadly force is about preventing serious injury or death to an innocent. Once an attacker breaks off and tries to leave, there is no longer any need for prevention and that means there is also no longer any justification for using deadly force.

Killing someone after they have clearly broken off the attack and are trying to get away is murder.