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Old April 10, 2019, 06:52 AM   #151
Lohman446
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I haven't read the Havamal. Is anything in it attributed to Gudrid Thorbjarnardóttir?
Not by attribution. The Havamal is considered (sold as) "The Words of Odin". The Poetic Edda (and others) are considered the preservation of the Norse religion and tales of great individuals. Virtually all that we have at this point of any of them were the historic works of church scholars in the medieval ages putting together what was largely information passed from generation to generation by word and story.

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Old April 10, 2019, 10:27 AM   #152
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I thought that the slide was operating under the recoil energy. I chalked up the difference in felt recoil between blowback, tilting barrel, and rotating barrel pistols as a matter of energy distribution.
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Old April 10, 2019, 11:27 AM   #153
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I chalked up the difference in felt recoil between blowback, tilting barrel, and rotating barrel pistols as a matter of energy distribution.
We talk about using recoil, or gas to operate the action. People tend to think this energy being used is used UP, doing its work. It isn't. Nothing is used up, its only transferred. The difference in felt recoil is due to the difference in TIME transferring the force to your hand.

Take three guns, give them identical weight, and identical ammo. Make one gas operated, one recoil operated and one standing breech manually operated. Input energy (cartridge firing) is the same for all, so recoil energy is the same for all. But the FEEL of the recoil in your hands will be different, because the rate it gets to you is different in each design.

We have wandered about a bit, discussed performance of different rounds in snub nose barrels, heard how the 9mm (certain loads) is plenty good enough, how the .357 is too much, how the average shooter will do better with the 9mm in a snubnose than a .357, and I'm not arguing that.

My point is this, since the guns are approximately the same size why limit your options to the 9mm round? You may not want, or need all the power the .357 can deliver, that's fine. You don't have to use it. In terms of bullet weight and velocity the .357 can do more than the 9mm. Which ALSO means you can load the .357 to do exactly what the 9mm does. Same size & weight bullet, at the same speed. Unused capability of full house .357 isn't "wasted", its just unused. If you have a .357 and shoot 9mm level loads, because its all you want or need, fine. If things change and you want/need the full power of the .357, its there, with a change of ammo. With a 9mm, its not.

So, since both can deliver the same thing coming out of the barrel, what is the advantage to the 9mm, if any? Moon clips over a speedloader? Possibly, but is the very small time difference in reloading something that is actually significant "for most people"?? I don't think so.
I don't have a DA 9mm revolver, but I do have a DA .45 that uses clips. However, it is a top break, which adds a different factor to the mix.

Clips have their down sides too. A bent clip can tie up your gun during a reload. There's no free lunch.
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Old April 10, 2019, 11:32 AM   #154
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I think any advantage the 9MM may have is in availability and cost of ammunition to the non-reloader. Of course this can backfire as well. When was the last time there was a run on .38 / .357 ammunition?

Without the factor of cost, availability, or interchangeability of the 9MM with other pistols the owner may already own / carry I do not think you can make an argument for it. But all three of those factors may play a part in an individuals decision.

Edit: Theoretically a 9MM revolver could be shorter than a .357 but I don't think any of the revolvers we are discussing are.

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Old April 10, 2019, 12:09 PM   #155
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"scholars in the medieval ages putting together what was largely information passed from generation to generation by word and story".

Some of it is goofy; other parts are amazingly accurate. You can stand at Gudrid's home at L'Anse aux Meadows, Newfoundland and recognise the specific terrain features described in the Sagas.

"My point is this, since the guns are approximately the same size why limit your options to the 9mm round?"

I agree, and I don't. My three 637-2 J-frames have three cylinders and yokes each.
One stainless in .38Sp+P, one titanium in .38Sp+P/.357Mag, and one in titanium 9mm.
All three can get the job done, but the 9mm is more convenient and also matches two of my four semi-autos.

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Old April 10, 2019, 01:34 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by Lohman446 View Post
I think any advantage the 9MM may have is in availability and cost of ammunition to the non-reloader. Of course this can backfire as well. When was the last time there was a run on .38 / .357 ammunition?

Without the factor of cost, availability, or interchangeability of the 9MM with other pistols the owner may already own / carry I do not think you can make an argument for it. But all three of those factors may play a part in an individuals decision.

Edit: Theoretically a 9MM revolver could be shorter than a .357 but I don't think any of the revolvers we are discussing are.
While ammo cost and availability is a big plus to 9mm, I don't think the point of owning one over the .38/.357 is ammo availability during a panic, it's simply what works best for the person in a defensive shooting.

With a snub, most .38+P isn't as powerful as standard pressure 9mm, so 9mm has a ballistic advantage whilst also having better JHP bullets that expand from short barrels, but .357 is so powerful and has so much recoil and blast it affects follow up shots and isn't exactly an inexpensive round to shoot, nor one I'd want to shoot more than a few cylinders of due to the recoil. However, once the barrel is 3 inches long, 9mm loses big to .357 and some .38+P.

In regards to snub revolvers, with 9mm, shooting them all day won't break the bank or your hand. More practice, more confidence means better results.
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Old April 10, 2019, 01:44 PM   #157
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Sooo 9>38>357
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Old April 10, 2019, 02:11 PM   #158
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125gr .357 short barrel Gold Dot from J frame: 1,109fps / 341 ft-lbs 
Speer 124gr +p 9mm LCR: 1,099 fps / 333 ft-lbs

Not my numbers
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Old April 10, 2019, 02:30 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by JimCunn View Post
125gr .357 short barrel Gold Dot from J frame: 1,109fps / 341 ft-lbs 
Speer 124gr +p 9mm LCR: 1,099 fps / 333 ft-lbs

Not my numbers
And it's this exact type of misrepresentation that distorts the discussion.

Pick the weakest 357 magnum load then compare it with a +P 9mm load.
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Old April 10, 2019, 03:13 PM   #160
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I didn't pick either one. Just Googled and that was what popped up.

I shoot 147 gr myself (because of my titanium cylinders). Was looking for a comparison between 135 gr .357 short barrel and 147 gr 9mm that I had seen earlier, but didn't see it just now. I do remember that the 135gr .357 was 298 ft-lb and the 147gr 9mm 35,000 psi was 292 ft-lb.

In both cases, the .357 was more powerful than the 9mm, which is what we would expect.

Me, I don't care which is more powerful, both get the job done. As does .38Sp.
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Old April 10, 2019, 03:13 PM   #161
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SOMEONE go to the range with their Chrony!

The issue here is you want to push a bullet with diameter .357 or .355 out of a short little barrel as fast as you can.

Just go to the range with 2 guns, because the physical differences in chronographs is going to matter because the differences will be in millimetric gnat hairs.

But boo hoo, I need more power from my gun with too short a barrel because really all I do is carry it around all day like a little boat anchor.

Moar Powah?
1. Get a longer barrel
2. .44 special
3. Shotgun

I’ve explored .357 reasonably extensively with a
10” fixed breech Contender .357 Maximum
20” marlin .357 carbine
5 1/2” Ruger Blackhawk with .357 and 9mm cylinders. The bullets are so close to each other you can shoot em both from the same gun.

If you want more velocity, get a longer barrel. It’s that simple.

If you are stuck with a short barrel, faster powders are better.

After having a lot of fun learning about all those guns I learned
A. The fireball from a .357 Max is spectacular at dusk when it’s snowing and generally is wicked painful.

B. Sell them all and go big bore

At this point I have determined that if not hunting deer and bored with my .22 I would rather try something interesting like 32-20, .327 Fed Mag (because load it to .32 long levels or whatever you like) or .380 auto because maybe handloads can make that little thing light and accurate and who doesn’t like messing with springs, or evem .38 special in a 3” kit gun because it’ll blow a pop can or attacking pine cone with authority. 9mm is just boring to me. It’s “buy it, shoot it because that’s what they want you to buy theses days. Boring.”

You guys should fight about “if Bruce Lee and Gandalf were in a fight, who would win” or “what is the hottest chilli pepper.”

Cuz 9mm or .38 are the same in an inch and a half long barrel.
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Old April 10, 2019, 03:18 PM   #162
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I agree. When I want more power, I shoot my Super Blackhawk. Generally, I don't want more power. Which is why I often carry a .380.
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Old April 10, 2019, 03:59 PM   #163
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Round, round, round, here we go....
Quote:
SOMEONE go to the range with their Chrony!...Moar Powah?
1. Get a longer barrel
I already posted way back in this thread somewhere:
.357 BB 180 grain @ 1246, 1250 out of 1/7/8 LCR = 625 ft pounds muzzle energy.
No one yet has posted a 9mm that tops that.

Does it matter if the round is expensive or boutique or there is only one manufacturer that this hot a .357 is available? No, not really, because it means that is the highest potential out of a short barrel revolver with .357 blowing away the usual myth that .357 is neutered out of a short barrel. Will I shoot it all day, NO, but it is available and I have done it. I don't need to practice with it, I just need to know the difference in the point of impact. Am I worried about followup times? No, not with only five rounds I want to make every shot count. Anyways, the recoil is stout but the muzzle rise was not vertical, so the time difference is fractional.
If you really need to practice weekend after weekend with your carry loads, you better get some professional instruction on marksmanship! That's my answer to the excuse for cost of ammo!

This is my woods load, not my SD carry.

Quote:
I didn't pick either one. Just Googled and that was what popped up.
I suggest that instead of just googling, you get out to the range yourself with a chronograph. From your posts about your expertise, it sounds like you should be able to afford one.
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Old April 10, 2019, 04:03 PM   #164
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Someone mentioned 357 has better bullet profiles and this provides an advantage. Not true.

If discussing flat points, meplat advantages in small calibers is a total myth. I dislike how the boutique loaders like Buffalo Bore say the flat meplat of their "woods" 9mm loads matter (https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...t_detail&p=388). It doesn't. It also doesn't matter in 357. The only reason the "wood" or "outdoor" boutique rounds are flat is because they are 147gr 9mm--flat points.

It's a bit of read, but you if go through it, you'll have more bullet profile knowledge than most.

http://www.gsgroup.co.za/articlepvdw.html

Summation, flat meplat don't provide a benefit until you get into large calibers (44 and rifle rounds).

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Old April 10, 2019, 04:23 PM   #165
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"it sounds like you should be able to afford one".

Yeah, I can afford one. It isn't where my interests lie.
In the 65-70 years I've been shooting handguns, I've only been to a range twice. Not my thang. I generally used my handguns for squirrel and rabbit hunting. After I lost interest in killing stuff, I mostly just shot soda pop cans and the occasional snake. I have very little empathy for snakes, and none at all for tin cans.

I'm so far behind the times that I use a Tom Threepersons holster.

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Old April 10, 2019, 07:38 PM   #166
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the usual myth that .357 is neutered out of a short barrel.
Realizing its just my opinion, but I consider 1200fps speeds to be neutered .357 Magnum.

The .357 was never meant to be fired from a snub nose, and while it is possible, it should not be done extensively. A friend of mine spent a summer firing a few thousand .357 rounds through several snub nose guns. He got nerve damage in his hands and arms that still troubles him a decade and a couple surgeries later. Today he can fire a box of 9mm, but nothing more then he has to stop.

Think of the .357 in a snub nose as "emergency use only". Limited use doesn't cause permanent harm, but over use can. Shoot enough to know if .357 goes somewhere radically different from lighter loads at belly gun ranges. Shoot something lighter for practice.

I favor the .357 over the 9mm for those times when you need more than the 9mm has. You may never need it, but I find having the capability available a comfort.

I keep hearing about how cheap 9mm ammo is, and since I haven't bought any factory ammo in some time I just looked at a couple pages on Midway's site.

9mm FMJ is running $.25 per round or a bit less. 9mm JHP's (the defense ammo always being touted) is running $1 a round +/- a bit depending on who's.

"Regular" .357 (158gr JSP/JHP) is running about $.50 each, +/-, and the fabled buffalo bore 180s are $1.50 each.

SO, explain how, the premium 9mm ammo (for self defense) is cheaper than regular .357 (also considered ok for self defense) at nearly twice the cost per round?? Yes, 9mm ball is cheaper, by far, but no one is talking about using 9mm ball for defense, they always talk JHP and those cost as much as twice what "regular" .357s cost. yes, premium 9mm is cheaper than premium .357 but no one seems to be claiming premium .357 is needed, but 9mm JHPs, ARE...

so, remember, when they claim 9mm is better because the ammo is cheaper, remember that only SOME 9mm ammo is cheaper and the cheap stuff isn't considered good for self defense.
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Old April 10, 2019, 08:03 PM   #167
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9mm ammo at Midway is as low as sixteen cents per round for Tula and nineteen cents per round for Remington. 38 Special goes for at least thirty-one cents per round at Midway for Magtech.

I reload 38 Special cheaper than 16 cents per round if I reuse my brass but I can reload 9mm for even less less.

I wouldn't use any of those loads for self defense but I would use them for practice.

For someone who doesn't reload and shoots a lot for practice, the 9mm makes a lot of sense.
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Old April 10, 2019, 08:05 PM   #168
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I thought a number of the world''s military forces use 9mm ball for defense.

That said, with three 9mm conversions in hand, I can assure you that paying for the conversion by means of ammo savings is unlikely. For me, the conversions were partly a matter of convenience, and partly for a lark. I like them.
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Old April 10, 2019, 08:11 PM   #169
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What did your conversions cost, if you don't mind me asking?


It seems to me that you would save just more than $120/k for practice rounds over 38 Special.
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Old April 10, 2019, 09:01 PM   #170
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9mm revolvers ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkeypete View Post
SOMEONE go to the range with their Chrony!

I wouldn’t likely be able to until like end of August/beginning of September... not enough time between leaving Maine and getting to FLETC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2damnold4this View Post
What did your conversions cost, if you don't mind me asking?

Two places do the work...

http://pinnaclehighperformance.com/

https://www.tkcustom.com/

Pinnacle did the work on mine... but bought the cylinder already converted off AR15.com. Had it fitted, then matched in NP3 Plus to my gun. Gives me a sort of convertible J-frame... since I still have the original cylinder. If I remember correctly, Pinnacle is a little cheaper.
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Old April 10, 2019, 11:05 PM   #171
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I thought a number of the world''s military forces use 9mm ball for defense.
This is kind of a yes and no thing.

Individual soldiers use 9mm ball for personal defense, because that's what they have. Armies don't. Many militaries don't really consider the handgun a weapon, or not an offensive one at best.

They use 9mm ball because all the major European (and American) powers long ago either signed or agreed to abide by (without actually signing) the Hague accords, which stipulated FMJ for use between signatory combatant nations armies. And, because fmj has the best record for feeding in all environments.

Remember the purpose of military weapons is NOT to keep our boys alive, or be the best they can be. The purpose it to accomplish the mission. Their criteria are "good enough to get the job done" and doesn't cost too much.

The actual effectiveness of individual rounds and their ability to stop an attacker is the top priority of the private citizen, protecting our precious behinds, and those of our loved ones. It is NOT the priority of the military, never was, never will be.

You or I wouldn't choose FMJ we have better choices available. Soldiers DON'T. They make do with what they get issued, the best they can.

This is the primary reason I always discount arguments about this or that being superior FOR ME, because the military uses it, or does it that way. It MIGHT be, but it isn't guaranteed to be the best for me, in my personal life, just because the military uses it.

been several decades since I made my "bunk" so you could bounce a quarter off it, and so far, I'm still here...
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Old April 11, 2019, 12:00 AM   #172
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"purpose it to accomplish the mission. Their criteria are "good enough to get the job done" and doesn't cost too much".

Not a bad criterium. It's what most of my clients require of my designs. Doing more throws away their money.
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Old April 11, 2019, 12:16 AM   #173
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"What did your conversions cost, if you don't mind me asking?"

TKC did mine. $300.
Plus $140 for the titanium .38Sp/.357Mag cylinder and extractor
Plus $15 for the titanium center pin
Plus about $30 for extra used yokes.
Moon clips (not TKC) cost about $1.25 each
So,about $490 for each of the three revolvers.
Takes an average of about 5 minutes per cylinder to time the new extractors. I do that while watching TV, so no cost.

Like Screwball, I kept the original, unmodified stainless cylinder and yoke.
I also did a second yoke and titanium cylinder assembly, leaving it unmodified as a .38Sp+P/.357Mag.

I do not expect to get my money back from 9mm ammo cost savings.

Last edited by JimCunn; April 11, 2019 at 12:22 AM.
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Old April 11, 2019, 01:20 AM   #174
TruthTellers
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Originally Posted by 74A95 View Post
And it's this exact type of misrepresentation that distorts the discussion.

Pick the weakest 357 magnum load then compare it with a +P 9mm load.
That's not the weakest .357 load, in fact the 125 grain load is probably one of the most often recommended and highly touted loadings experts say to use for defensive use with .357 Magnum in any revolver regardless of barrel length.

However, even the weakest 9mm load from a snub would likely be close to those numbers.
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Old April 11, 2019, 02:07 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by TruthTellers View Post
That's not the weakest .357 load, in fact the 125 grain load is probably one of the most often recommended and highly touted loadings experts say to use for defensive use with .357 Magnum in any revolver regardless of barrel length.

However, even the weakest 9mm load from a snub would likely be close to those numbers.
Speer's Short Barrel loads are low velocity rounds. I don't see a Short Barrel 125 grain load at Speer's website, but their Short barrel 135 grain load is mighty slow, rated at 990 fps from a 2" vented barrel.

https://www.speer-ammo.com/products/...s=357%20Magnum

Jim specified the Short Barrel round, but didn't post the source, so who knows whether it was a 125 grain or a 135 grain.

Lucky Gunner's data clocked the 135 grain Short Barrel at 1069 fps from their 2" barrel revolver, a Kimber K6S.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/rev...llistics-test/
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