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Old April 7, 2019, 04:54 PM   #101
Lohman446
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The 9MM is a commonly accepted defensive round in the concealed carry community. Is this even in question in this thread?

There are 9MM revolvers available.

Some people will chose 9MM in a revolver

You do not have to.

Why are some of the posters here reacting like this is some major threat to them personally? The 38 and 357 revolvers are not going to become suddenly obsolete.
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Old April 7, 2019, 05:10 PM   #102
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"How is having loaded moonclips in a bottle faster than a speedloader on your belt"

It's faster than a speedstrip and cheaper and less bulky than a speedloader :-)

My actual reason for liking the 9mm Airweight J-frame is two-fold:
I like the 12.5 oz weight, and I like the ammo commonality with my Browning Hi-Power and my Micro 9.

Re power, most all of these rounds will get the job done just fine, so relative power isn't all that important.
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Old April 7, 2019, 05:34 PM   #103
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An idle curiosity question......
Including the military, what is the world''s most widely used handgun ammunition?
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Old April 7, 2019, 05:35 PM   #104
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My actual reason for liking the 9mm Airweight J-frame is two-fold:
I like the 12.5 oz weight
I thought the Airweights were around 14.5 - 15oz. But I believe I've read about the 360J being an AirLite that's marked Airweight.

Is that the case with yours, marked Airweight, but weighs like an AirLite?
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Old April 7, 2019, 06:01 PM   #105
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No, mine are 637-2. I switched to titanium cylinders and titanium center pins that reduced the weight to 11.9 oz, and added Altamont combat grips that brought it back up to 12.5.
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Old April 8, 2019, 02:26 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by 74A95 View Post
Evidence?

Evidence?

And any evidence has to be from the same barrel length and type of gun (e.g. revolver). And no fair using 9mm +P data.
Someone posted their data they got using Magtech .357 (a low end .357 load) and it was near the same velocity as a .38+P load. 124 grain Sig Sauer 9mm was faster out of Paul Harrell's LCR.

The accuracy evidence is self explanatory. Low end/cheap .357 from certain companies won't have the same QC that 9mm does from others. The quality of the cheap .357 won't be better than 9mm stuff from Federal, Hornady, Winchester, etc.
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Old April 8, 2019, 02:30 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Lohman446 View Post
The 9MM is a commonly accepted defensive round in the concealed carry community. Is this even in question in this thread?

There are 9MM revolvers available.

Some people will chose 9MM in a revolver

You do not have to.

Why are some of the posters here reacting like this is some major threat to them personally? The 38 and 357 revolvers are not going to become suddenly obsolete.
Cuz the old guys know that they're right and have been right for decades and can't accept being told they're wrong now because deep down, we all want to be right, not wrong.

Back in the day, up until probably the late 00s, a .38/.357 snub was better than a 9mm snub because the bullets were better. Today, we have better bullets that make 9mm way better than it ever was before.

Right now, all the .38/.357 crowd have to cling to when they want to focus on "powah" is boutique .38 +P ammo and 180 grain boutique .357 ammo. When you leave energy/"powah" out of it and focus solely on ammo price, variety, ease of shooting, and performance, a 9mm snub makes a strong case for replacing both.

But to some, if you can't handle 180 grain .357 out of an LCR, you're just not man enough to be carrying anything more than a .22.
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Old April 8, 2019, 02:34 AM   #108
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An idle curiosity question......
Including the military, what is the world''s most widely used handgun ammunition?
If it's not 9mm, it's .22 LR.
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Old April 8, 2019, 02:55 AM   #109
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I didn't realize the military used much .22LR.
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Old April 8, 2019, 03:49 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by TruthTellers View Post

The accuracy evidence is self explanatory. Low end/cheap .357 from certain companies won't have the same QC that 9mm does from others. The quality of the cheap .357 won't be better than 9mm stuff from Federal, Hornady, Winchester, etc.
So, no evidence.
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Old April 8, 2019, 04:27 AM   #111
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So, no evidence.
I guess you don't trust the chrony data that HighValleyRanch gave in post #68

Quote:
I was shooting a cylinder full of half .38 special +P BB 158 grain Keith hardcast Buffalobore outdoorsmans and half magtech 158 grain swc .357 magnum. They felt identical in recoil and loudness. This was out of my new Kimber K6 with the new wood grips. Didn't have the chrono set up in the rain.

Checking my chrono data for both out of my LCR, they are almost identical in ME.
.38 +P BB at 1024, 1027 fps, and the magtech .357 158 grain at 1001, 1024 fps.
As for the accuracy, go shoot the cheapest 9mm ammo you can find, generally that'll be steel case Tula or Magtech, and compare it to the cheapest .38 and .357 you can find, which will also be Tula and Magtech, and you'll see a difference.

I don't shoot cheap .38/.357 anymore, it's garbage ammo, but I will with 9mm because it is so mass produced that near every manufacturer has the same levels of quality control, be it cheap ammo or not.

.38 can come with a variety of bullet diameters, powder types and amounts and that can work well in some revolvers, but poorly in others. .357 generally gets away with it some because usually factory .357 ammo uses FMJ and the bullet diameters are pretty consistent, but the issue with the cheap, low end factory ammo is the pressures aren't high enough to obturate the stronger brass to the chamber, so the powder burn isn't as consistent shot to shot as 9mm is.

Over a wide variety of ammo, the 9mm will shoot as well as or better in a snub than .38 and .357 can.
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Old April 8, 2019, 04:28 AM   #112
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I didn't realize the military used much .22LR.
That we know of. Those super sneaky Navy Seals are tough to spot.
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Old April 8, 2019, 06:23 AM   #113
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"That we know of. Those super sneaky Navy Seals are tough to spo"

I didn't know there were enough Seals for their .22 handgun ammo to make up a significant fraction of the 9mm used by most of the world''s military forces :-)
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Old April 8, 2019, 07:34 AM   #114
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The Taurus 692 just came out a week ago or so online.

It's a 3 or 6 inch barrel (ported, both) with swapping cylinders in 9mm or 357. 5 Stellar moon clips are included for the 9mm. You swap by pushing a button and sliding the arm up and out.

It's on the Tracker Compact frame, which is the compact frame of their M66, slightly smaller than an L frame S&W.

Cool idea.
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Old April 9, 2019, 07:51 AM   #115
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I have limited experience with moon clips. Is there a film canister or modern equivalent that is the right size to hold a loaded moon clip and just drop it in?
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Old April 9, 2019, 08:50 AM   #116
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I get pill bottles from Walmart (for free) that are the perfect size for holding three 5-round moonclips. I put the first moonclip in the bottle primer up, the second primer down, and the third primer up (no bullet noses touching primers). The fit is snug, a slight tap of the bottle on your hand drops a moon clip into your palm.

I would think that these bottles could be cut off short to hold a single moonclip with round snouts exposed. I will try that.

Edit -- I tried it, it works.
Also, cut a circular hole in the bottom of the pill bottle with a diameter just less than the location of the primers. The purpose being to assist in pushing the moon clip out with a finger (if need be) while still protecting the encapsulated primers from being struck by something in your pocket.

Give the pill bottle base a slight twist as you extract it after you drop the rounds into the cylinder. That assists in releasing the bottle base from the moonclip.
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Old April 9, 2019, 12:52 PM   #117
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Give the pill bottle base a slight twist as you extract it after you drop the rounds into the cylinder. That assists in releasing the bottle base from the moonclip.
congratulations on re-inventing the SPEEDLOADER.

Quote:
usually factory .357 ammo uses FMJ
USUALLY factory .357 ammo uses FULL METAL JACKET ???
I don't THINK so! Its pretty rare to find FMJ .357 on the shelves, FMJ 9mm is EVERYWHERE.


Quote:
Right now, all the .38/.357 crowd have to cling to when they want to focus on "powah" is boutique .38 +P ammo and 180 grain boutique .357 ammo.
No, that's what you are focusing on...

Quote:
When you leave energy/"powah" out of it and focus solely on ammo price, variety, ease of shooting, and performance, a 9mm snub makes a strong case for replacing both.
I don't know how you separate energy /"powah" from performance, perhaps you could explain your parameters?
For me ammo price, variety, and ease of shooting are not the primary factors I use choosing defense ammo.

I fail to see the relevance of discussing the accuracy of the cheapest crap ammo, and I'm skeptical of the premise that a company that makes crap .357 makes ok 9mm because "they make so much of it..."

Quote:
Over a wide variety of ammo, the 9mm will shoot as well as or better in a snub than .38 and .357 can.
And the point of this is??
Even if it were true mathematically, its a trick of averages. Just what is "better"?? Groups size? again, averages. You take all the different kinds of ammo, all different guns and all the different SHOOTERS, in each caliber, average the results and get a number. That's math, it works. Then claiming one caliber is more accurate using that number, doesn't work. Too many other vitally important factors are ignored.

Here's another point to consider, there is a 50/50 chance that your gun, your ammo and YOU will be below average.

There is also the same chance to be above average. I don't see where averages matter all that much, what matters is what is in your hands, what it does, and what you or I can do with it.

I'm not trying to say the 9mm Luger isn't a viable choice, especially when fired out of the most inefficient pistols around (snub nose revolvers). I just don't see anything that makes it superior.

There are pros and cons to everything, and each of us has a different mix of priorities and requirements, and no one thing is the best at everything.

But please stop trying to convince people that 9mm is better than .357 because someone found some crap .357 that doesn't perform significantly better than 9mm, from a snub nose. It's not any more intellectually honest than claiming ALL 9mm loads are poor performers because the original 9mm load (a 124gr FMJ @ 1050fps from a 4") is surpassed by many other rounds today...
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Old April 9, 2019, 01:15 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
congratulations on re-inventing the SPEEDLOADER.



USUALLY factory .357 ammo uses FULL METAL JACKET ???
I don't THINK so! Its pretty rare to find FMJ .357 on the shelves, FMJ 9mm is EVERYWHERE.



No, that's what you are focusing on...



I don't know how you separate energy /"powah" from performance, perhaps you could explain your parameters?
For me ammo price, variety, and ease of shooting are not the primary factors I use choosing defense ammo.

I fail to see the relevance of discussing the accuracy of the cheapest crap ammo, and I'm skeptical of the premise that a company that makes crap .357 makes ok 9mm because "they make so much of it..."


And the point of this is??
Even if it were true mathematically, its a trick of averages. Just what is "better"?? Groups size? again, averages. You take all the different kinds of ammo, all different guns and all the different SHOOTERS, in each caliber, average the results and get a number. That's math, it works. Then claiming one caliber is more accurate using that number, doesn't work. Too many other vitally important factors are ignored.

Here's another point to consider, there is a 50/50 chance that your gun, your ammo and YOU will be below average.

There is also the same chance to be above average. I don't see where averages matter all that much, what matters is what is in your hands, what it does, and what you or I can do with it.

I'm not trying to say the 9mm Luger isn't a viable choice, especially when fired out of the most inefficient pistols around (snub nose revolvers). I just don't see anything that makes it superior.

There are pros and cons to everything, and each of us has a different mix of priorities and requirements, and no one thing is the best at everything.

But please stop trying to convince people that 9mm is better than .357 because someone found some crap .357 that doesn't perform significantly better than 9mm, from a snub nose. It's not any more intellectually honest than claiming ALL 9mm loads are poor performers because the original 9mm load (a 124gr FMJ @ 1050fps from a 4") is surpassed by many other rounds today...
In an average shooters hands, they will shoot a 9mm snub better than a .357 snub and the 9mm will be more effective because they shoot better with it. And I'm not focusing on low end cheap .357 when I say that, slap Buffalo Bore .357 in a snub and give it to an experienced shooter and then give them a 9mm snub and I guarantee there will be a difference in speed and tighter groups on target.

The point of conceal carry isn't to blow someone away and make their head explode like the guy in the movie Scanners, it's to keep an attacker away from you so you don't get seriously hurt or killed. Tell me how a 9mm snub fails to do that, but a .357 does. The extra 50 or 100 ft-lbs is unnecessary, especially when people don't hit the target, which is easy to do with a snub nose revolver.

That's where the increased performance comes in.

Also, in regards to .357 factory ammo being mostly FMJ, I mean to say most factory ammo in .357 is jacketed. I used the wrong acronym.
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Old April 9, 2019, 01:30 PM   #119
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.357 that doesn't perform significantly better than 9mm, from a snub nose.
I would like to investigate that narrow premise alone. I've heard this and frankly not investigated it further because until very recently the point would stand as academic only to me. No one that I wanted to purchase a revolver from made one in 9MM.

Does .357 in barrels shorter than 2 inches significantly exceed 9MM in performance? Apples to apple comparisons and staying within SAMI defined parameters (IE 9MM +P is in but +P+ is not)
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Old April 9, 2019, 02:00 PM   #120
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"Congratulations on re-inventing the SPEEDLOADER"

Yeah, a FREE speedloader :-)

Chrono results from snubnose :
135 gr .357Mag shortbarrel 298 ft-lb
147 gr 9mm 292 ft-lb

Not enough difference to worry me.
The reason I carry a 9mm 637-2 is for ammo commonality with my Hi-power and my Micro 9.
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Old April 9, 2019, 02:16 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by JimCunn View Post
"Congratulations on re-inventing the SPEEDLOADER"

Yeah, a FREE speedloader :-)

Chrono results from snubnose :
135 gr .357Mag shortbarrel 298 ft-lb
147 gr 9mm 292 ft-lb

Not enough difference to worry me.
The reason I carry a 9mm 637-2 is for ammo commonality with my Hi-power and my Micro 9.
Which ammo from which gun?
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Old April 9, 2019, 02:22 PM   #122
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This whole thread is making me itchy.

Rimless ammo is for auto loaders, rimmed ammo is for revolvers.

Helmets are for motorcycles, seatbelts are for cars.

Pineapple is for breakfast, pepperoni is for pizza.

Cowboys shoot .45s and lever actions, Chicago gangsters shoot Thompsons, and Tactical Tommy shoots 9mm.

If you start mixing things like this up, pretty soon Corporations will be People and General Electric and General Dynamics will get married in a full dress ceremony instead of doing a corporate merger. Think of the children!

What next? Glock comes out with the G117... the 41 magnum Glock?

I didn’t make up these rules, they were just taught to me by my dad, his dad, and Hal, the neighbor.
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Old April 9, 2019, 02:28 PM   #123
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Something that gets lost here when comparing velocity/ME is that both calibers have to be fired from the same barrel length and gun type (i.e. Revolver).

I don't have 9mm revolver data available, but I'm sure it's around someplace on the internet.

Here are some of my snubby revolver numbers:

From a 2" Colt Magnum Carry, I get Remington 357 Magnum 125 grain SJHP clocking at 1255 fps, which produces 437 ft. lbs. of ME.

Buffalo Bore's 357 Magnum 125 GDHP clocked at 1328 fps producing 489 ft. lbs. ME.

The low-speed Remington 357 Magnum 125 Golden Saber ran 1086 fps for 327 ft. lbs. ME.

At least try to make 'fair' comparisons. Cherry picking results only proves one's biases.
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Old April 9, 2019, 02:44 PM   #124
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Pineapple is for breakfast, pepperoni is for pizza.
May I ask what you are eating for breakfast and where?
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Old April 9, 2019, 02:58 PM   #125
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Quote:
congratulations on re-inventing the SPEEDLOADER
To be fair, it is a different animal when dealing with a clipped batch of ammo. The idea of having your rounds clipped together is interesting to me. I actually have a revolver in .357 magnum that is cut for moon clips. I've just never gotten around to trying them!
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