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Old April 7, 2019, 09:03 AM   #76
Webleymkv
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Well just off the top of my head, Speer makes three different Gold Dot loadings in .357 Magnum, Federal has the 140 GR Barnes Expander, Barnes loads their 125 GR XPB under their own brand, Cor-Bon offers their 125 GR DPX, Winchester offers a 125 GR PDX Defender, and Hornady makes both Critical Defense and Critical Duty in .357 Magnum. I'm really not seeing a lack of modern premium bullets being a problem in .357 Magnum. Also, considering Federal is making HST's in .38 Special +P and 10mm, I wouldn't be surprised by a .357 Magnum version soon.
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Old April 7, 2019, 09:53 AM   #77
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FYI, Vista owns Speer and Federal.

Barnes is owned by Freedom (ie Remington).

Interestingly, Vista Outdoors and Barnes is both base in Utah.

The Speer bullets that are not Gold Dot (ie, "Bonded") take harder velocities to do what Gold Dot does at lower velocities. This was documented on Speer's website until 3 years ago or so.

That is why HST and Gold Dot are great in 9mm and perform better than most junk bullets as show in the Lucky Gunner test. The are just better hollow points in all regards.

It's also *probably* why we see the 10mm Gold Dot factory load so low on FPS and no HST 357, instead going the Fusion route from Federal.
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Old April 7, 2019, 10:01 AM   #78
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Why is it so hard for some to accept that 9mm splits the difference between .38 Special and .357 Mag? You can cherry pick the strongest .38 Special +P loads or weak .357 loads and skew the results but comparing standard loads from the same company will result with 9mm right in between the 2.
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Old April 7, 2019, 10:08 AM   #79
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"but comparing standard loads from the same company will result with 9mm right in between the 2".

Why is that?
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Old April 7, 2019, 10:11 AM   #80
wild cat mccane
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I'm arguing it doesn't split, 9mm exceeds a lot of 357 loads.

HST does better than MOST 357 loads at personal defense attributes.

Heck, at 18 inches fully expanded, it does better than MOST 357 factory loads.
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Old April 7, 2019, 10:27 AM   #81
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"9mm exceeds a lot of 357 loads".

Yes, it does. But the real reason I like 9mm is that it matches two of my four semi-automatics.
Plus ejecting and reloading is much quicker, and I carry three extra 5-round moon clips in a Wallyworld pill bottle, which is convenient. I wish I could say 9mm is cheaper, but considering the cost of the initial conversion - it isn't. It is worth it though.
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Old April 7, 2019, 11:20 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wild cat mccane View Post
9mm exceeds a lot of 357 loads.
And Buffalo Bore has .38 Special loads that exceeds most 9mm loads, so I guess that means .38 Special is better than .357...
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Old April 7, 2019, 11:32 AM   #83
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wild cat mccaine, I think you may have a bit skewed ideas about what 9mm HST's actually do because of Lucky Gunner's tests. The Clear Ballistics gel they used seems to slightly decrease expansion and significantly increase penetration.

On the Vista law enforcement website, they have tests of both HST's and Gold Dots in Calibrated Ordinance Gel.

https://le.vistaoutdoor.com

In bare gel, 9mm HST's expand well at .850" to .880" depending on the particular loading (124, 124 +P, or 147), but penetration is less at 10-12"

Likewise, in heavy clothing, we see expansion of .590-.690", but penetration of 12-13", much shallower than Lucky Gunner's results.

Similarly, the single .357 Magnum load tested by Vista was the 158 gr Speer Gold Dot, which pretty much completely failed to expand in Lucky Gunner's tests, expanded to .551" and penetrated 21.31" in bare Gel and expanded to .453" and penetrated 21.65" in heavy clothing.

This is why I take issue with Clear Ballistics Gel: it too often provides radically different results from real 10% ordinance gel. If we're going to base our opinions solely on gel test results, I think we should at least use the industry standard gelatin.
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Old April 7, 2019, 12:21 PM   #84
wild cat mccane
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Lol. Did you even look at what you posted?

18" on the 124gr non +p.

https://le.vistaoutdoor.com/wound_ba...omparison.aspx
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Old April 7, 2019, 12:22 PM   #85
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This thread is like being on a Merry-go-round!
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Old April 7, 2019, 12:45 PM   #86
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Quote:
"9mm exceeds a lot of 357 loads".
Yeah, and if I drive 58mph I'm going to pass a lot of people doing 55..but I'm not going to pass the guy doing 65...machts nichts.

I never could see the point to a 9mm Luger only revolver, unless 9mm is the only ammo you can get. IS there a revolver made with a frame purpose built for the 9mm size? There's none that I know of. The frame window is big enough to fit .38 Spl, and many fit .357 for size.

So, you aren't getting a size reduction in the gun because 9mm is shorter than .38Spl. IF the gun is going to be big enough to take .357 anyway, why stop at 9mm?
I note the discussion is almost entirely focused on small frame snub nose revolvers and various loads performances from them. I don't see anyone saying "I want a 6" N-frame or Ruger Redhawk in 9mm Luger!"
Why do you think that might be?
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Old April 7, 2019, 12:56 PM   #87
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What I have learned so far in this thread:

- the .38 Spl is more powerful than the .357 Mag
- the 9 mm is more powerful than the .357 Mag
- gel doesn’t effect velocity or energy
- some people are attacked by jello
- ballistic gel is an excellent real-world substitute for human bone and lung tissue
- a defensive handgun should be chosen based on how easy it is to reload
- a defensive handgun should be chosen based on the highest muzzle energy
- a defensive handgun should be chosen based on test results in jello
- a defensive handgun should be chosen based on the cost of the ammo

I am so much smarter now, after reading the entire thread.....



.
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Old April 7, 2019, 01:11 PM   #88
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Plus ejecting and reloading is much quicker, and I carry three extra 5-round moon clips in a Wallyworld pill bottle, which is convenient.
How is having loaded moonclips in a bottle faster than a speedloader on your belt??

One of the reasons I dislike having all five round stuck in a moonclip is the lack of ability to do an administrative or tactical reload of a couple of rounds if necessary.
Having to dump the whole clip out with some loaded ammo still in doesn't make any sense to me. Having to wait until you fired all five or six rounds before reloading again makes little sense in light of unknown situations.

I remember reading about a well know revolver instructor and he asked his students to reload their revolvers as fast as possible. They all loaded up five or six rounds as fast as possible......Then he showed how he reloaded one round and was ready to fire immediately in one fifth of the time.

Here's how I like to carry my reloads. The pouch holds a 8 round speedstrip with HST micro in it, and a SL Variant speed loader with truncated bullets for faster speedloading. This pouch fits perfectly into my right rear jeans pocket and I can reach in and grab the speedloader with my right hand for an Ayoob stress reload technique. The SL Variant is a push in release with the faster reloading time of all loaders. This combo gives me five in the LCR, five for a quick reload and 8 for slower tactical or administrative lull or cover time.
(No pills in a bottle for me!)^^^^^
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Old April 7, 2019, 01:14 PM   #89
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What I have learned so far in this thread:
Imo, the real bummer in this thread is the unwritten truth that Elmer Keith wasted a whole lot of time dinking around with the .357. Just think how awesome things would be today if he had hot rodded the 9mm instead.
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Old April 7, 2019, 01:25 PM   #90
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just as an aside . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post

I never could see the point to a 9mm Luger only revolver, unless 9mm is the only ammo you can get. IS there a revolver made with a frame purpose built for the 9mm size? There's none that I know of. The frame window is big enough to fit .38 Spl, and many fit .357 for size.
Taurus makes a 380 revolver with a 1.3" long cylinder that would be just right for a 9mm round.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post

I note the discussion is almost entirely focused on small frame snub nose revolvers and various loads performances from them. I don't see anyone saying "I want a 6" N-frame or Ruger Redhawk in 9mm Luger!"
Why do you think that might be?
Not a defensive gun, but made for competition there is this 8 shot 6.5" 9mm N-Frame S&W: https://www.smith-wesson.com/firearm...nter-model-929

And this short 2.5" barreled 7 shot L-Frame 9mm that would be useful for defense: https://www.smith-wesson.com/firearm...-986-25-barrel
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Old April 7, 2019, 01:26 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Carmady View Post
Imo, the real bummer in this thread is the unwritten truth that Elmer Keith wasted a whole lot of time dinking around with the .357. Just think how awesome things would be today if he had hot rodded the 9mm instead.
We're doing that now with 9 Major.
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Old April 7, 2019, 01:35 PM   #92
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wild cat mccaine, yes, I looked at what I posted but apparently you didn't read it very closely. The only 9mm HST that penetrated 18" did so after going through steel and it expanded to .390" after doing so. If you read my post carefully, you'll see that I specifically referenced bare gel and heavy clothing. This is because I was comparing results to those of Lucky Gunner's which did not test all the intermediate barriers that Vista did.
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Old April 7, 2019, 01:48 PM   #93
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And Buffalo Bore has .38 Special loads that exceeds most 9mm loads, so I guess that means .38 Special is better than .357...
Again, it's the Buffalo Bore boutique argument. So long as one factory ammo in a certain caliber is more powerful, that automatically makes that caliber better than another simply because at least on factory ammo is available.

I don't buy a gun chambered for a caliber simply because there's one uber powerful load available for it that beats most other loadings in a different caliber, I buy a caliber because it has various benefits like better price and availability or accuracy and is plenty powerful.

In the case of 9mm, it's more powerful than 95% of available factory .38+P ammo in snub revolvers and low end .357 loads too all whilst being less expensive and equally or more accurate.

For normal carrying purposes in urban, suburban, or rural areas, 9mm in a revolver is sufficient. There's few instances where 158 grain .38+P would be a better choice.
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Old April 7, 2019, 01:51 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by HighValleyRanch View Post
How is having loaded moonclips in a bottle faster than a speedloader on your belt??

One of the reasons I dislike having all five round stuck in a moonclip is the lack of ability to do an administrative or tactical reload of a couple of rounds if necessary.
Having to dump the whole clip out with some loaded ammo still in doesn't make any sense to me. Having to wait until you fired all five or six rounds before reloading again makes little sense in light of unknown situations.

I remember reading about a well know revolver instructor and he asked his students to reload their revolvers as fast as possible. They all loaded up five or six rounds as fast as possible......Then he showed how he reloaded one round and was ready to fire immediately in one fifth of the time.
You can use a speedloader with 9mm, it just means you won't be able to eject them as fast if you need to reload a second time.

Which is so rare it's not even worth making an argument that you'd realistically have to do it. Same goes for the "stress reload" of only loading a couple rounds at a time or doing a "tactical reload."

Which btw, you can still do if you don't use the moon clip for a 9mm revolver.
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Old April 7, 2019, 02:10 PM   #95
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Which is so rare it's not even worth making an argument that you'd realistically have to do it.
You might as well make that same argument against carrying any firearm then!
Funny about how many will argue about the cost of ammo for practising with their carry firearms, then dimiss the need for practising manipulations as unneccesary because of rarity.
Look up stress reload, Mas Ayoob for the particular technique.
Here, I did it for you....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXUwI_d8JlA

And here is a good article about running a wheelgun keeping it loaded during the lull time:
https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/r...-self-defense/
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Old April 7, 2019, 02:19 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by TruthTellers View Post
In the case of 9mm, it's more powerful than 95% of available factory .38+P ammo in snub revolvers and low end .357 loads too all whilst being less expensive and equally or more accurate.
Evidence?

Evidence?

And any evidence has to be from the same barrel length and type of gun (e.g. revolver). And no fair using 9mm +P data.
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Old April 7, 2019, 03:06 PM   #97
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Wish there was a like button for JimCunn’s post.
There have been a number of good or at least funny posts in this thread so far.

I joined Bladeforums within the last year to talk about pocket knives. I've gotten used to the "like" feature over there and it is handy. Now there are lots of times where I want to do that for a good post here. Of course, the way they do the forums here on TFL is wonderfully clean and basic. I also appreciate not having ads all over the place.
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Old April 7, 2019, 03:12 PM   #98
Bill DeShivs
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Early Taurus 90s revolvers had a frame/cylinder sized for the 9mmP round.
Later models went back to the standard .38 Spl size.
Then, Taurus came out with a gun sized to the .380 round.
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Old April 7, 2019, 03:23 PM   #99
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You missed an important criteria in your list below:
already having over 5000 rds of 9mm to shoot up. 8-))

>What I have learned so far in this thread:

- the .38 Spl is more powerful than the .357 Mag
- the 9 mm is more powerful than the .357 Mag
- gel doesn’t effect velocity or energy
- some people are attacked by jello
- ballistic gel is an excellent real-world substitute for human bone and lung tissue
- a defensive handgun should be chosen based on how easy it is to reload
- a defensive handgun should be chosen based on the highest muzzle energy
- a defensive handgun should be chosen based on test results in jello
- a defensive handgun should be chosen based on the cost of the ammo

I am so much smarter now, after reading the entire thread..... <
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Old April 7, 2019, 03:30 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by TruthTellers View Post
Again, it's the Buffalo Bore boutique argument. So long as one factory ammo in a certain caliber is more powerful, that automatically makes that caliber better than another simply because at least on factory ammo is available..
I can’t tell if you realize or not that is the whole point I was making. Cherry pick a few loads and before too long you’ll follow a chain of logic that results in 32 ACP ammo being more powerful than .44 Mag.
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