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Old April 14, 2019, 01:16 PM   #226
wild cat mccane
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Federal owns/makes: Gold Dot, Hydra/Hydro shok, HST, Speer Bonded (Underwood and Buffalo Bore loads these old bullets). Vista owns Speer, Federal, Federal Premium...basically all the great bullets except XTP and Barnes.

If Federal (which makes HST 38spl, Gold Dot 357, Gold Dot 10mm) is saying the 9mm HST performs better than their previous bullets because it goes deep, while providing full 9mm expansion, while not requiring massive amounts of velocity (ie, like their old Speer Bonded bullet does), post the link where Buffalo Bore bear killer owner says on his own website 9mm will kill bear, I show a scientific article on metplat size doesn't matter on 357 from a big game hunting bullet maker, I present Lucky Gunner using the same gel with 357 vs 9mm with pictures...and you still want to call me wrong?

At this point, I'm okay with you calling me wrong.

The floor of opinion with no evidence is owned by you.
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Old April 14, 2019, 01:27 PM   #227
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the link where Buffalo Bore bear killer owner says on his own website 9mm will kill bear,
The key here is not "will kill", but did kill
One incident doesn't prove anything other that it can happen.

Quote:
I present Lucky Gunner using the same gel with 357 vs 9mm with pictures
And Lucky Gunner did not provide any gel testing with Buffalobore.
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Old April 14, 2019, 01:36 PM   #228
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So you're going to sell the .357's you have for a Walther PPK? Good luck Mr. Bond.
Why not? after all, compared to his Beretta, the PPK "hits like a brick through a plate glass window"....

it boils down to this, any and every bullet that goes where it needs to go, works. Whether it expands, or not. BUT, getting that bullet there takes a combination of factors and the world isn't a perfect place.

SO, the while the minimum will work, when things are perfect, having more increases the odds of success when things aren't perfect.

9mm revolvers exist, some think they are ideal for some things. I don't think they are useful for anything I do. If you do, fine, get one, or three if you like. but don't ague what works for me isn't good enough, you're just annoying the pig.


And, don't forget the real lesson of the 1986 FBI Miami shootout. A 9mm, fired from a service automatic, failed to instantly stop the bad guy. The lesion isn't that the 9mm failed, it isn't that we have "better" ammo today. the lesson is that the round that met all the approved requirements and standards of the time, failed in a real world situation.

EVERYTHING has failed, and everything has succeeded, so perhaps we shouldn't blindly accept anyone's "tests" as gospel of how things will go in the real world, every time...
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Old April 19, 2019, 10:59 PM   #229
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Quote:
Originally posted by wild cat mccane
Someone made an excellent point about lighter 357 110 and 125 gr being the standard self defense weights. This is accurate and shouldn't go unnoticed when people start talking about 357 can go heavier than 9mm. Okay. Now go look at the 125gr 357 tests. Those do perform well. Also note, the go to light weight round is the Remington 125gr SJHP. It is known to eat forcing cones--yep even on your improved 686 and impossible to destroy GP100.
110 and 125 gr are hardly the only popular bullet weights for self defense in .357 Magnum. Federal's 130 gr Hydra Shok, Speer's 135 gr Short Barrel Gold Dot, Cor-Bon's 140 gr JHP, Winchester's 145 gr Silvertip, and various 158 gr JHP loadings from every major manufacturer are all popular choices for defensive use.

Also, I'd like to see some documentation that the Remington 125 gr SJHP "eats forcing cones" in S&W 686's and Ruger GP100's. In fact, the only guns I'm aware of that routinely had problems with this loading are olders S&W K-Frames (Models 13, 19, 65, and 66) due to the flat spot in the 6 o'clock position in their forcing cones necessary to clear the yoke. Current productions S&W K-Frames use two-piece barrels with no flat spot and are thus not subject to this failing.

Quote:
Originally posted by wild cat mccane
Also, some of these BB and Underwood hot loads being thrown around as evidence of common 357 superiority are "Ruger only" loads. Someone correct me on this, but I believe that means for the frame of the GP100/Redhawk. It doesn't include SP101. It certainly isn't J frame material.
Incorrect. In their product descriptions of all their heavy .357 Magnum ammunition Buffalo bore states the following in bright blue letters:

"This ammo is safe to shoot in ANY all steel 357 revolver - this includes J frames."

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...duct_list&c=20

Quote:
Originally posted by wild cat mccane
Perfect timing. Energy doesn't matter. According to Federal who makes 357 too.
Sorry, but too many of the "explanations" given by the so-called "experts" in the Lucky Gunner video were over-simplified, taken out of context, or just plain wrong. For example, Mr. Laack not only ascribes to the "magic number" of 2200 fps myth (if this were true a .17 HMR would be a superior fight-stopper to a .45-70) but also apparently needs a refresher on Newtonian physics when he states that the extra energy of a .44 Magnum is "obliterated" or "washed away" by tissue elasticity.

Also, if energy doesn't matter, then why does Federal make their ultra-premium-don't-need-high-velocity HST's in both standard pressure and +P versions in both 9mm and .45 ACP? Afterall, the standard pressure versions do quite well in gelatin tests, so why would anybody want the extra blast and recoil of a +P version?

Quote:
Originally posted by wild cat mccane
Don't read the comments, watch the youtube from Federal.

They know what they are talking about as the largest US ammunition manufacturer...
Why then do they offer not only +P but +P+ loadings in their law enforcement lines?

https://le.vistaoutdoor.com/ammuniti...ls.aspx?id=526
https://le.vistaoutdoor.com/ammuniti...ls.aspx?id=675
https://le.vistaoutdoor.com/ammuniti...ls.aspx?id=573
https://le.vistaoutdoor.com/ammuniti....aspx?id=53612

Note that none of the above are part of the regular production ammo lines that Federal or Speer markets to us uneducated masses but only offered in their LEO-only lines.

Quote:
Originally posted by wild cat mccane
Federal owns/makes: Gold Dot, Hydra/Hydro shok, HST, Speer Bonded (Underwood and Buffalo Bore loads these old bullets). Vista owns Speer, Federal, Federal Premium...basically all the great bullets except XTP and Barnes.
What exactly are these "old Speer bonded bullets" you keep saying that Buffalo Bore and Underwood are loading? Speer Gold Dots are bonded bullets and the bullets that were loaded in the Underwood .38 Special +P 125 gr Bonded JHP ammo I have looks exactly like Speer Gold Dot .357" 125 gr JHP component bullets and the bullets loaded in Speer Factory .38 Special +P 125 gr Gold Dot ammo.

In fact, in searching the Speer .357" component bullets available from both Graf & Sons and Midway USA, I could not find any "old bonded bullets" only Gold Dot, Deepcurl (which is actually loaded in the Speer Factory 158 gr Gold Dot loading), TMJ, and their generic JHP (which looks nothing like what is loaded in my Underwood ammo).

Look, I'm not arguing that, with premium bullets, a 9mm can't perform very well. However, a cartridge which can use bullets not constrained by what the majority of semi-auto's will reliably feed that can push comparable weight bullets 200-300 fps faster (not counting boutique ammo like Underwood or Buffalo Bore) is going to be able to do things that a 9mm simply cannot do.

For example, my chosen .357 Magnum self-defense ammo is Remington 158 gr SJHP. This loading does typically fragment but still delivers consistent expansion and more than adequate penetration. I view fragmentation as potentially beneficial so long as penetration is adequate. This is because fragmentation can work synergistically with temporary cavitation to increase tissue damage. This phenomenon was noted by Dr. Martin Fackler:

Quote:
Originally written by Martin Fackler
Projectile fragmentation can greatly augment temporary cavity effects by providing points of weakness on which the stretch is focused rather than being absorbed easily by the tissue mass
https://web.archive.org/web/20120218...small_arms.pdf

Finally, have you ever considered that perhaps there aren't so many modern, premium bullets available for .357 Magnum because the old ones work quite well as they are? One of the often-overlooked advantages of the .357 Magnum is that it doesn't need premium bullets to perform well. While your HST's or Gold Dots may be impressive, that doesn't do you much good if they're unavailable as they often were during the Great Gun and Ammo Panics of 2009 and 2013. If I'm limited to whatever generic JHP I can happen to find at Walmart in the midst of a big panic buying spell, I'm going to trust the old SJHP .357 Magnum loadings a lot more than I would WWB, American Eagle, or UMC generic 9mm JHP's.
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Old April 20, 2019, 07:11 AM   #230
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The problem I have with most 9mm revolvers is that they are built on the same frame/cylinder length as a .357, so why carry a 9 (other than ammo cost)?. I'd like to see someone develop a gun specifically for the shorter 9mm cartridge, with a smaller frame and shorter cylinder. Unfortunately, that would probably be cost prohibitive for most manufactures.
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Old April 20, 2019, 08:48 AM   #231
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I'd like to see someone develop a gun specifically for the shorter 9mm cartridge, with a smaller frame and shorter cylinder.
That would be nice, but they know don't have to so they won't, and that saves them money.

I'd like to see them go 1/2 way; use the same frame with a shorter cylinder. They could have the barrel/forcing cone extending about 1/2" into the cylinder window which would give the 9mm close to a 2.5" barrel in the same overall size.

It will never happen. Ruger doesn't even put a longer ejector rod on their 3" LCR's (because they don't have to).
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Old April 20, 2019, 09:39 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by Carmady View Post
That would be nice, but they know don't have to so they won't, and that saves them money.



I'd like to see them go 1/2 way; use the same frame with a shorter cylinder. They could have the barrel/forcing cone extending about 1/2" into the cylinder window which would give the 9mm close to a 2.5" barrel in the same overall size.



It will never happen. Ruger doesn't even put a longer ejector rod on their 3" LCR's (because they don't have to).
S&W did that with one of their .45ACP revolvers....it was ugly as sin. I personally like that little bit of freebore to accelerate the 9mm.

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Old April 20, 2019, 10:05 AM   #233
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I personally like that little bit of freebore to accelerate the 9mm.
Are you serious?
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Old April 20, 2019, 12:36 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by Carmady View Post
Are you serious?
It does help add a bit of velocity, not as much as rifling in a barrel would, but it doesn't reduce the velocity or accuracy any amount.
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Old April 20, 2019, 02:41 PM   #235
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"so why carry a 9 (other than ammo cost)"

Convenience (matches several of my other handguns) and fast reloading.
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Old April 20, 2019, 05:47 PM   #236
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Taurus actually did develop a shorter revolver for the 9mm cartridge. The original model 905 was about the same size as their .380 revolver.
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Old April 20, 2019, 05:59 PM   #237
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Taurus actually did develop a shorter revolver for the 9mm cartridge. The original model 905 was about the same size as their .380 revolver.
I had one, the 905IB (Instant Backup) and it was a piece of junk. Yes, it has a shorter 9mm length frame and cylinder. There's zero advantage to the shorter gun in performance, handling, or concealability.
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Old April 20, 2019, 07:12 PM   #238
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Loaded length of the 9mm is approximately .4" shorter than the .38 Special.

So, you could make the frame and cylinder about that much shorter, but they don't, there's no point, the demand simply isn't there.

the difference simply isn't enough to matter for most people.

Taurus might have gone somewhere with their shorter frame gun, if it hadn't been considered junk.
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Old April 20, 2019, 07:57 PM   #239
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Making the frame .4" shorter might lead to new difficulties concerning the average trigger reach.
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Old April 21, 2019, 01:41 AM   #240
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Making the frame .4" shorter might lead to new difficulties concerning the average trigger reach.
I don't see where this would really be a problem, first we're talking .4", and generally speaking, like a short stock, most people can adapt to a shorter reach where a longer one might not be possible.

Plus, that small amount of reach change could simply be managed with a slight design change to the trigger itself, regarding the placement of the curve.
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Old April 21, 2019, 02:07 AM   #241
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It does help add a bit of velocity, not as much as rifling in a barrel would, but it doesn't reduce the velocity or accuracy any amount.
I was talking about a Ruger 9mm cylinder, the kind with throats that allow a .358" bullet to pass through (because they won't be bothered with making it right when they don't have to).

I don't see how that would "help add a bit of velocity."
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Old April 21, 2019, 09:51 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by Carmady View Post
I was talking about a Ruger 9mm cylinder, the kind with throats that allow a .358" bullet to pass through (because they won't be bothered with making it right when they don't have to).

I don't see how that would "help add a bit of velocity."
Because the throat is smaller in diameter than the chamber is, so pressure will build more vs shooting something like .45 ACP via moon clip in a .45 Colt chamber.

It's basically adding .4 inches to the barrel length.
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Old April 23, 2019, 11:24 AM   #243
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How many times do I need to say it? "MARKETING!"

Here is the problem:
I took a deer a while back with a rifle that was 110 years old. My great great grandpa's... made in 1893. He got it at the Columbian Exposition.
In this case I "cheated" and used a .30 cal 150 g Nosler ballistic tip traveling around 850 fps because... OLD OLD OLD gun.

My go-to deer rifle is my Grandfather's 30-06, a Remington model 30 Express. He bought it sometime between when he got back from WW1 and 1930. It's a very solid rifle even today.... twist and rifling notwithstanding.

I have beautiful shotguns made in 1946 and 1955. You can't afford the quality today they had back then. Redesign for steel shot is a legitimate factor but not so much that I will buy a new one.

I have only managed to wear out one gun in my life: a H&R .22 Special which was the name of the .22 breaktop "target" revolver. The pawl just wore out and along with the whole thing getting wobbly and loose and the extractor star having been sticky for years it wasn't worth the money to have that revolver with a poor choice of design for a cheaply made revolver restored. It would cost more to have it repaired than to get a new gun, in other words. The Cheap H&R "only" gave 60 years of dependable hard service. It was my rabbit gun when I was growing up, handed down to me. H&R was known to be nowhere near the quality of a Colt or Smith.

So how can an industry make money when the products work well for on the order of 100 years? They have to rely on marketing and creating demand. So... 9mm is the thing. But maybe the new trend is .380... I like .380. It's old. It's new. .32 was a good try but only a nut like me even considers a custom revolver in .32-20 with the optional .327 Fed Mag cylinder because it costs as much as a motorcycle.

Last edited by stinkeypete; April 23, 2019 at 11:53 AM.
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