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November 27, 2018, 04:36 PM | #51 | ||
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Even with the best training, sometimes it is just impossible to tell if someone is being just an unhinged attention-seeker or is about to open fire with a real firearm. Such is the specter that hangs over law enforcement every day. There are plenty of "suicide by cop" cases that unfold just like this. Quote:
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November 27, 2018, 04:56 PM | #52 |
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IMHO, one of those three you listed, plus TCCC and maybe a performance driving class are good tools I'd love to be able to have everyone with a firearm be well trained in. I know that is not going to happen. I do however put some info on verbal judo, de-escalation, Stop the Bleed into the basic course I have taught for years. I also have a legal section written by an attorney and a section dealing with LE written by an LEO. I hope I give my students a foundation on which they continue to build. Over the years I have come to realize that the number who actually do so is minimal. The tools get rusty if you don't use them.
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November 29, 2018, 01:11 PM | #53 |
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"...defense of justification for the use of force or the threat of force will depend upon whether the triers of fact will conclude that a reasonable person in the same circumstances would have done the same thing, knowing what the actor knew at the time.
Some key elements of justification are things that are taught in training." I'd like to see some case law on where the reasonable person standard was held to be the "trained" person. So I, respectfully, think it would be a somewhat risky defense strategy to proffer the defendant's training resume. To do so seems to welcome challenges and nit-picking beyond the "reasonable person" standard. And isn't it the trier of fact, and not the testifying expert, who determines "reasonable person"? "If you need help on that, let us know." I'm not sure I need help just because my opinion differs from yours. Last edited by Naro; November 29, 2018 at 01:16 PM. |
November 30, 2018, 06:26 AM | #54 | |||
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Why do you think that trainers advise signing and dating the training material, sending it to oneself via registered mail, and storing the sealed and unopened package in a safe deposit box? Quote:
A juror may well have some inkling that drawing and firing while an assailant is at some distance from the defender would not be reasonable. Would the juror understand that waiting until the assailant is within two arms' lengths from the defender would not be reasonable, or that there is a generally accepted distance at which drawing might well be reasonable? A juror whose only exposure to gunshot wounds has been screen fiction may really believe that one shot would be sufficient, and that firing several shots rapidly would not be reasonable. A juror may have absolutely no understanding of the fact that a defender cannot know precisely when the assailant is no longer threat after having been shot. A juror may be persuaded that the defender should have "tried to wound" the assailant. The expert witness can credibly explain these things, and the fact of the training and the admissibility of the evidence may prove critical in proving that the defender had an objective basis for having believed at the time of the incident that his actions were reasonable. Quote:
This subject has been covered at length here, in training classes, and in appellate courts. I suggest that you avail yourself of some good instruction in use of force law. Massad Ayoob would be a good source, and so would Andrew Branca. |
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November 30, 2018, 08:25 AM | #55 |
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"I do not think that your opinion, as i understand it, is an informed one.
This subject has been covered at length here, in training classes, and in appellate courts. I suggest that you avail yourself of some good instruction in use of force law. Massad Ayoob would be a good source, and so would Andrew Branca." You have a point, although a bit condescending. I can always learn more. My 40+ years testifying as a forensic expert in state and federal courts probably doesn't entitle me to an opinion different from yours. |
November 30, 2018, 10:10 AM | #56 | |||
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December 12, 2018, 01:33 AM | #57 |
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I took Ayoob’s MAG20 class and he highly recommends taking notes to document your training and mailing the documents to yourself certified and registered via USPS so if needed at a future time, the package can be opened in the well of the court. I’m also a member of the Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network and they echo documenting training. People that carry guns will automatically be held to a higher standard. Ayoob cites a case in NY where the expert for the defense was not allowed to discuss the Tueller Drill in front of the jury because the defendant didn’t know about the Tuller Drill at the time of the shooting. Something to think about.
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December 13, 2018, 07:31 AM | #58 | |
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December 13, 2018, 12:25 PM | #59 | |
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I can recall an instance where a municipal officer was injured in a brawl and ultimately was assisted by a passerby who help subdue the offender. The offender claimed to have suffered some nerve damage to his hand due to improperly applied restraints ( too tight for too long and not double locked) claiming the officer was negligent and knew better. There was a big brouhaha about the officer having recently received training in the proper application of restraints and specifically the methods to guard against the potential for nerve and tissue injuries. Well guess what?! The injured Officer didn't cuff the offender, the passerby did. Guess what happened to the claim of negligence, unreasonableness, indifferece and malice once joe citizen from the tire store was to blame? It evaporated.
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December 13, 2018, 04:33 PM | #60 |
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Well, I'm currently in LE and as an instructor, I need documentation in order to keep up my certifications and in case one of my officers or myself gets involved in a shooting.
So, I keep a copy of the certificate of training/accomplishment/instructor course for my records, along with a copy of the syllabus that is being taught or instructed. In 5 years, when I am retired, I will do the same thing for any training or classes I continue to take.
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December 13, 2018, 05:21 PM | #61 | |
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https://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org...ey_Booklet.pdf
for a case where training came up. If you get hyper-picky about 'records', you miss the point, that training can be an issue and documentation is a good thing. From a well-known article on self-defense: http://www.aware.org/legal-articles/...-lisa-j-steele Quote:
There are more. Frank Ettin has posted a list of interesting cases several times. BTW, in the legal literature there are discussions of martial arts training and legal issues in self-defense.
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December 14, 2018, 08:44 AM | #62 | ||||
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December 14, 2018, 10:56 AM | #63 |
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Again, its what you can PROVE you knew at the time of the shooting.
Tueller drill?? Prove you knew about proximity vs time Failure to stop shot??? Prove you knew about handgun failues. Why didnt you just shoot him in the leg like on tv? Prove you knew about the problems with that concept Expert witnesses are GREAT, but if you cant show that YOU knew AT THE TIME of the shoot, their testimony about what THEY knew is not relevant. So, without training records showing YOUR knowledge, how do you show the Jury what you knew? Remember, with the “Reasonable man doctrine” that Reasonable man had all the knowledge AND training you had at the time of the shooting. Without records, that “Reasonable man” is kinda ignorant. |
December 16, 2018, 03:56 PM | #64 | |
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It gets comical at some point. Heck, I cant prove 90% of what I know on any subject. "how did you estimate the speed of the vehicle without an instrument".. well, I know the distance between telephone poles and I did some rough math based on the the number of seconds it took the vehicle to pass 4 poles. PROVE IT SIR!! prove that someone didn't tell you that during the last recess!!! Come on, it just gets silly at some point but if it makes you feel better to amass your training certificates.. have at it. I will stick with the common layman/good Samaritan standard and roll the dice with what they believe or don't believe.
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Life is a web woven by necessity and chance... Last edited by FireForged; December 16, 2018 at 04:01 PM. |
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January 23, 2019, 08:46 AM | #65 | ||
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January 23, 2019, 01:05 PM | #66 |
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There is a difference between wanting to establish that you know something more than the average person and a circumstance where you may not want to invite being held to a higher standard than the average person.
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January 23, 2019, 09:17 PM | #67 | |
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