July 2, 2011, 02:03 AM | #451 | |
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I don't think, at this point, it matters one whit who was the "brainchild" or "brain trust" that hatched this felony stupid plan, unless it was the POTUS or a cabinet level position. The more important point is at what level was the plan approved to begin execution and was the approver/authorizer given all the details of the plan? We can envision that unnamed, unelected GS-5 bureaucrat who takes some initiative to create the plan and pass it along through to someone who can "get the ball rolling". We can also envision some mid-to-high level officials "packaging" the plan for Holder (or deputy AG Ogden) without the sordid little details -- like losing track of the guns. Or simply saying they intend to cooperate with Mexico... but leaving out precisely when that might happen. We can see how such a plan might be endorsed with the belief it will be implemented according to agency policy and best practices. Except for a few niggling little details in this case. From what I've read, the jurisdictions on border cases requires inter-agency cooperation and teamwork (something the ATF also does poorly). Operations along the border use EPIC (El Paso Intelligence Center) with multiple agency members only steps away. Much of the work along the border is done under the OCDETF (organized crime drug enforcement task force) oversight, which combines DOJ and DHS resources (ICE, Customs/BP, USCG, etc). In addition, incidents along the border are reported to the State Department to notify them of potential diplomatic issues. Operations targeting Mexican nationals or US citizens involved in criminal activity within Mexico are also summarized for State. It's possible that these agencies were "kept in the dark" about ATF's operation, but not plausible. Not with the jurisdictional turf wars each agency plays (each wants the credit for any major case). Plus, the State Dept. would be in the "need to know" category about any operation attempting to break the drug cartels or their supply chain(s). It seems almost inconceivable that this operation could be contained entirely within the mid-level bureaucratic layers of DOJ, DHS and State. Government bureaucrats don't take a dump without a plan that is approved by at least one or two layers higher up. And a plan who's prima facie presentation looks good does not excuse agency heads from doing their due diligence by asking questions or trying to poke holes in the plan. The important thing here is that AG Holder is the holder of the bag. It's his job to know what kinds of operations are going on within his agency and his responsibility that every agency and department adheres to the constitution and US laws.
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July 2, 2011, 02:16 AM | #452 |
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What is pathetic is the minority attempting to put a pro-gun control spin on a case that is definitively about the circumvention of existing gun laws for reasons no-one has even attempted to explain.
I believe the the BATF's behavior rises to criminal conduct. They knowingly put thousands * of guns into the hands of criminals, then purposely allowed them to vanish from their control. If that isn't a criminal violation of federal law, then I can't imagine what is. As far as I am aware, there is no LE exemption for arming criminals and letting them walk away to plan their next murder. (+/- 1700 guns just from this program. It's probably a fair assumption that there are at least some other more isolated instances guns getting walked by this agency.) |
July 2, 2011, 07:25 AM | #453 |
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Holder said in May that he learned of the operation a few weeks ago. Being generous, he may have meant March.
Grassley's first letter to him on the subject was in the beginning of February. Taking him at his word, I'd say that ignoring mail from a US Senator for over a month is malfeasance. His word does not strike me as particularly credible in this case. |
July 2, 2011, 09:36 AM | #454 | ||
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The minority whitewash report on Gun Runner Fast and Furious Gunwalking begins:
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July 2, 2011, 10:03 AM | #455 | |
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July 2, 2011, 02:24 PM | #456 |
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I want to see BATF people go to prison for this, and the agency neutered.
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July 2, 2011, 02:54 PM | #457 | ||
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...and all that transparency stuff? Quote:
Call me a cynic, but... I think openess, efficiency and effectiveness in Government must mean different things to different people. Oh wait a minute, Chicago... Gov't... nevermind. Ignore the above. I'll simply say, this ain't Chicago, and... RIP BPA Terry |
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July 2, 2011, 07:35 PM | #458 | |
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The goal is to create animus for firearms among the American populace to cause an outcry for gun control. They have now been caught and their only defense is "Who are you gonna believe, me or your lying eyes?"
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Gun Control: The premise that a woman found in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is morally superior to allowing that same woman to defend her life with a firearm. "Science is built up with facts, as a house is with stones. But a collection of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house." - Jules Henri Poincare "Three thousand people died on Sept. 11 because eight pilots were killed" -- former Northwest Airlines pilot Stephen Luckey |
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July 2, 2011, 07:50 PM | #459 | |
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From the "minority whitewash" report linked by publius42:
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It's not hard to understand. They wanted more funding and more power, and they broke the law to get it.
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July 2, 2011, 09:51 PM | #460 |
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Accessory to Murder In First Degree
That is what the ATF is, that is why they should be disbanded. That is what they will continue doing untill this country is put right!
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July 2, 2011, 10:44 PM | #461 |
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maestro pistolero wrote:
I want to see BATF people go to prison for this, and the agency neutered. ----------------------------- I would like to see that happen too, and let's not forget those responsible parties at DOJ. While on the subject of what I would like to see happen, I'd like to win the state lottery, to which I have now and then bought tickets. Didn't happen though. Likewise, I don't think that any of BATFE management will go to jail, ditto for DOJ people, though they should. What should be, and what is are often markedly different though, as I submit will be the case here. Oh I'm reasonably certain that some convenient low level lambs, suitable for sacrifice, will be found and offered up. As for those responsible parties, "FOREGDABOUDIT", as the Mafiosi used to say. Yes, it is sad. |
July 3, 2011, 12:47 AM | #462 | |||
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The question is whether to defund and disband ATF, disbursing it's power and authority to other agencies or keeping ATF on a tight leash. I prefer the latter. Suggested changes...
You get the idea. ATF has proven itself incapable of performing a bona fide law enforcement function over the last 39 years. It has proven itself to trample civil rights, commit abuses of authority, engage in entrapment, falsify records and routinely commit perjury. Now it has engaged in conduct that, had it been directed against the US, Germany or Israel could have been classified as "acts of terrorism" or "acts of war". It could well be classified as a "terrorist organization" under our own rules governing such. Stripping ATF down and making it an investigative agency still allows them to conduct investigations, even undercover operations. But now it has to document and present cases to a U.S. Attorney for review prior to any law enforcement action or prosecution. That means the AUSA in charge has to ensure ATF's investigations are performed to "best practices" standards and are conducted within the law. Simply transferring ATF's authority to the FBI or DHS would likely mean transferring or rehiring many of the same "bad apples" under a new name. Worse, it could result in combining information with these other agencies in ways that are undesireable.³ ¹ except for crimes committed in an agent's presence. ² License/permit revocation authority passes to US Attorney's office ³ Such as DHS/Customs/ICE flagging your passport as a gun owner for closer inspection
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July 3, 2011, 02:04 AM | #463 | ||
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July 3, 2011, 08:08 AM | #464 | ||
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July 3, 2011, 11:45 AM | #465 | |
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So Fast and Furious was created as a way of ensuring that the Mexicans would recover more crime guns that could definitely and conclusively be traced to the United States. Anyone who believes the BATFE thought these guns would in any way lead them (or the Mexican authorities) all the way up the food chain to cartel leaders is ingesting hallucinogenic mold spores. Fast and Furious is the program Obama was hinting at when he promised sarah Brady that his people were working on "something" he couldn't discuss. |
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July 3, 2011, 12:40 PM | #466 | |
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July 3, 2011, 12:53 PM | #467 |
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One more thing, and an obvious one at that...
Whether the claimed figure is 90% or 70% or whatever, and the phrase "of the submitted guns" is used, doesn't that only apply to those guns that are not marked "made in USA"?
Any idiot (and we have plenty on both sides of the border, in and out of govt service) can tell that a gun marked "made in USA" comes from the United States! And, all the trace can tell us for certain is that the guns were made in the US. In general, anyway. Now, specific guns, might be able to be traced to the US as the last place they were legally sold, but that doesn't guarantee the last place they were before entering Mexico was the USA. The Fast & Furious gun, yes, they were traced from point of sale to the border, basically, and lost after that, until they turn up again, at a murder scene or in a siezure. There's a buttload of M16s in Mexico, and for certain, those guns will be "traced" to the USA. And reported as such. What the antis will convieniently leave out is that the guns were supplied by the US Govt! Apparently, the Fast & Furious guns were too!
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July 3, 2011, 01:48 PM | #468 | |
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Honestly, part of me wonders if the whole "crime guns in Mexico" issue isn't just a ruse anyway. It seems to me that the root of the problem is discontent over the drug trafficing and other crime coming across the border from Mexico. The Mexican government certainly doesn't seem overly inclined to do anything about it and a good number of politicians in the U.S. aren't either. I can't help but wonder if, with gun control being so politically unpopular in the last 10-15 years, it's just a convenient issue to distract the public from the real problem. No one will have to actually do anything besides blame someone else since new gun control legislation has about the same chance as a snowball in Hades of passing. |
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July 3, 2011, 01:56 PM | #469 | |
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July 3, 2011, 02:04 PM | #470 | |
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Gang members signed up for the Mexican army, then absconded with them. That's how. It's a well known practice. There's no way we could have stopped that. I heard that those number somewhere around 250,000.
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July 3, 2011, 03:16 PM | #471 |
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From David Hardy, http://armsandthelaw.com/
"Sen. Grassley says he has the figures. The wording of his release isn't entirely clear, but it seems to be referring to 24% of guns that the Mexican government asks to be traced (which are minority of its crime guns, and certainly disproportionately those of American make). And of course a gun sold by an FFL to a honest person, and years later stolen and smuggled out, would count as a gun traced to that dealer even though his transaction was 100% proper.
So the actual percent of Mexican crime guns traced to American FFLs is likely far less than 24%, and a good portion of that may be stolen. The actual percentages are a far cry from the Administration's claims of 80-90%. But for some reason I doubt you'll read this in WaPo or the NY Times anytime soon..." Reference: http://grassley.senate.gov/about/Foc...gd1J-1Fw.email The relevant number is 24% and that is of traces requested, not arms recovered, and traces overwhelmingly involve US made firearms. DiFi has no idea what she is really talking about but that is a long way from unusual, especially about firearms of any sort anywhere.
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July 3, 2011, 04:17 PM | #472 | ||
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maestro pistolero - neutered is a good term for it. I just wanted to make the distinction between limiting ATF's authority and spreading it's duties to other agencies...which could end up almost as bad (few things could be worse than ATF, IMO).
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See the WaPo article here In Re: 90% statistic. The original stat was shot down quickly by public commentators (including thousands of bloggers). That was March of 2009. Not too surprisingly, the origins of "Fast and Furious" can be traced to approximately this same timeframe. Coincidence? (old adage: There are no coincidences in Washington). Truth: Back then, the seized gun count was just under 30,000 (call it 29,000 and some change). Publicly, the ATF said that "6,000" guns were submitted for tracing and about 5,400 were "sourced" to the USA. Sure, this is not rocket science. Mexico sorted the guns stamped "MADE IN USA" and those with U.S. import markings into a separate pile and asked ATF to trace them. This resulted in "90% of the submitted guns being traced to the USA". Duh! What was more interesting (and I can't find the source) was that a significant portion of those traced guns (about 40% IIRC) were traced to two U.S. "foreign aid" programs. One is the military assistance program where we supply guns to Mexico's military. The other is called the "commercial sales" program, where commerical guns are sold to "authorized" Mexican businesses -- armored car companies, security companies, power and pharmacuetical companies,etc. The bottom line was that only about 7% came from border gun shops. This is just like the focus Congress had on Assault Weapons. Instead of focusing on the significant problem, let's spend our resources on 2% of the problem. Here everyone is talking border gunshops that are the source in only 7% of the cases. Yeah, that's being really effective. Quote:
Of course, such clamoring will start just before the next election and I would not be surprised to see Brady/VPC/Bloomberg priming the pump with articles and editorials in the border state newspapers. I know that's cynical of me...
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July 3, 2011, 04:34 PM | #473 | |
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Regardless of what the ulitmate goal was, it seems as though their method has blown up in their face. |
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July 3, 2011, 06:52 PM | #474 | ||
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July 3, 2011, 07:20 PM | #475 | |
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They say the world changed on Sept 11...
It didn't. But a number of people did have their eyes opened.
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People who had just gone along, or even supported gun control, because "it was just common sense" to reduce violence, suddenly saw how much, and how badly they had been lied to. Some of them even realized that the gun control laws might keep them from getting a gun when they needed it! Even Michael Moore, the so called documentary film maker, and darling of the anti-gunners, just after 9/11 publically said how wrong he had been going after guns, when people with box cutters could wreak such havoc. I believe he was in shock, and some actual honesty slipped out, as I think he has recanted that statement since. The fact is lots of people saw that US gun laws and gun owners were NOT the terrible problem they had been led to believe they were. Support in general for gun control, and support for the Brady group in particular has been slipping ever since.
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