What's the rule of thumb for loading plated using Jacketed data?

[Pond, James Pond]

Please remind me!!

I have 200gn plated TC bullets that I want to load into .44 mag cases. I already have the same bullets and the same powder in .44Spl cases: 7.3gn N320.

I'll be using the same powder but all the data I've found is for jacketed bullets so I'd like some idea of which charge adjustment to apply.

To give you an example, VV data says 10-11.3gn with a Hornady HP-XTP, whilst Handloads.com give 9.8-10.9 for the XTP.

I'm looking to emulate the performance of my Spls, but a bit more velocity is not the end of the world either. I'm most interested in consistent burn and accuracy.

[Unclenick]

It depends on the manufacturer. Some say to use lead bullet data. Others say to use jacketed data, but not above the middle values. I think a thin copper plate belongs with the former recommendation, and a heavy one can withstand the latter.

I would trust someone who has pressure tested the data more than someone who has not.

Regarding your example, Hornady makes 180, 200, and 240 grain XTP's in .429. You didn't say which one.

[LE-28]

Also, Hornady has different seating depths than most other bullets and that will affect you POI if your trying to duplicate the spl rounds for competition.

That's another factor. Do you have a chronograph, I only look at one thing with plated bullets, What does the mfg suggest for a max speed limit and stay within it. They are all different with their speed limits.

I use mostly RMR thick plated, hard core, match bullets with a speed limit of 1500fps. Ranier will have a much lower speed limit to stay safe with their soft lead core and thin plating. That doesn't mean Ranier is making a defective product, it means their bullets are made for a different purpose.

The speed limit the mfg puts on their bullets will tell you how to stay within the safe limits of what your trying to achieve. That will dictate how fast you can load their bullets.

What plated bullets are you using.

[Pond, James Pond]

Regarding your example, Hornady makes 180, 200, and 240 grain XTP's in .429. You didn't say which one.

I was referring to 200gn as this is the same weight as the bullet I'm trying to load for.

What plated bullets are you using.

H&N from Germany. Theirs are TC plated bullets with a polymer coat for "high speed" performance, not that I'm going for that.

I have a chrono, but using published data is only useful to a point as they rarely use a 4" barrel like mine.

[steve4102]

From X-Treme Plated bullets.

http://www.xtremebullets.com/Bullet-...nfo-s/1952.htm

Load Info

Our Copper Plated Bullets can be run at mid-range jacketed velocities or higher end lead velocities. We recommend keeping velocities to less than 1500 FPS (Feet Per Second) and using only a light taper crimp

Any velocities over 1200 FPS we recommend either our Heavy Plate Concave Base or Hollow Point products for superior accuracy. We recommend keeping velocities to less than 1500 FPS (Feet Per Second) and using only a light taper crimp


From Rainier Plated Bullets.

http://www.rainierballistics.com/load-data/

Load Data
Rainier recommends using commercially published jacketed bullet load data when loading our projectiles. There is no need for adjustment when using jacketed bullet load data. Our bullets are completely encapsulated in copper, creating a “Total Copper Jacket” (TCJ) through a specialized electroplating process, and are softer than traditionally jacketed bullets.

We recommend a starting powder charge directly between the listed minimum and maximum load found in various published and reputable reloading manuals.

A slight taper or minimal roll crimp may be used with our bullets. Over-crimping plated bullets may result in decreased accuracy, and can result in the fragmentation of copper plating.

From Berry Bullets

https://www.berrysmfg.com/faq

Question: How do I load Berry's Preferred Plated Bullets?

We do not research or publish the load data, but you can use any published load data for a jacketed or lead bullet as long as it is the same weight bullet. Any of the load data books or the powder manufacturers’ website should have that information for you, as long as you keep them under 1250 fps for our standard bullet or 1500fps for the bullets designated as TP (thick plate).



Question: Load Data for Berry's Preferred Plated Bullets

Currently published load data is limited to some calibers by Accurate, Western Powders and Hodgdon. We are working with these companies to get data published for all of our bullets.

We recommend using hard cast load data or start with mid-range jacketed data. Make sure data is below 1250fps unless you are using a Thick-Plated bullet that we list a higher max velocity for like the 9mm 124gr HBRN-TP that can be shot to 1500fps in open class guns like a .38 Super. Keep in mind that since our plated bullet has the same pressure curve as a hard cast bullet, the published cast data will be very close to what you will get with our plated bullets. If you use Jacketed data with our plated bullets you can get from 5% - 8% increase in velocity using that data.

Other than the data from Western and Accurate for the 9mm, .40S&W and Hodgdon .40S&W there is no printed data available.

[steve4102]

Originally Posted by Pond, James Pond

H&N from Germany. Theirs are TC plated bullets with a polymer coat for "high speed" performance, not that I'm going for that.

Copper Plated bullets are not the same as Polymer, Powder-coat or HI-TEK coated bullets.

[Pond, James Pond]

Copper Plated bullets are not the same as Polymer, Powder-coat or HI-TEK coated bullets.

These are copper-plated with a clear polymer lacquer on top.

Thanks for those Cut'n'Pastes, though.

It looks like I should be thinking in the regions of mid-range charges and going from there.

[LE-28]

Apparently you are using these, http://www.hn-sport.de/en/reloading/tc-429-200-gr-hs

320m/s changes over to 1049.868766404 fps. and they do say they have a polymer coating of some kind on the plating of the bullets.

That 1049fps is the fastest you can run that bullet safely according to the mfg. I doubt your spl loads are running that fast but your 44mag mid range loads may be. This isn't about duplicating 44spl and mag load with spl brass anymore, your bullets aren't built well enough to go into 44 mag mid range.

If your running your midrange 44mag loads faster than 1049fps you are exceeding the speed limit of that particular bullet with the starting load of a 44mag being 1250 fps with a 200 gr bullet and N320. That is way over the plated bullets max you are using.

You have to chrono your 44mag load your using then Taylor it down to the 44spl with those bullets since according to VV reloading guide for N320, the max load for 44spl is 986fps which is close to the max speed of the H&N bullet of 1049, with VV320.
I know it's 6" barrel load data but you will only loose about 50-75fps per inch of barrel.
You may be over the safe limits for that plated bullet with your mid range 44mag load. You have to chrono your 44mag load to find out if it is over the 1049 speed limit that H&N put on their bullets and go from their.

[Unclenick]

I was referring to 200gn as this is the same weight as the bullet I'm trying to load for.

Well, duh. I got distracted and forgot what I'd been reading. Sorry about that.


LE-28,

Actually, it says velocity level over 320 m/s. I looked at the recommended .44 Mag load of 19.5 grains of N105 (a little faster than IMR4227), and QuickLOAD says that would approach 518 m/s (1700 fps) from a 7.5" Redhawk barrel. The predicted peak pressure is not quite 32,000. That's getting up there, but keep in mind that Elmer Keith worked up .44 Magnum loads using pretty soft (by current standards; about BHN 12) lead bullets, so this is far from impossible.


James,

Using N320 in the software, I get to the same peak pressure with 10.4 grains, 417 m/s. 11.3 grains is still within the CIP limit (40,600 psi on their test gear) at 37,000 psi and 438 m/s, but nearing the limit closely enough that I would be cautious about approaching slowly and watching for pressure signs; particularly, sticky extraction.

[LE-28]

UncleNick, your right it does say "over" 320m/s. That's pretty vague and I wish they had the max listed on there. It matters a lot with plated bullets liking to shed their plating when pushed to fast.

I believe I would email H&N and find out, I would have to know.

I just emailed them, if it goes through and I get an answer I will post it tomorrow.

[Unclenick]

I suspect they just think of 320 m/s as a rough limit for cast bullets, and are trying to say these can be pushed faster.

I don't believe anything about speed limits unless a barrel length and condition are included. Many folks have pushed very hard cast (Linotype) bullets up over 2500 fps in rifles with smooth bores.

[MJFlores]

The important thing to remember when working up a load with plated bullets is, use jacketed data and stay below 1200 fps. You can crimp without worry, but I try to go tight enough just to keep the bullets from moving under recoil. They're surprisingly tough and can take a good crimp.

[Economist]

Mid-range charges for jacketed bullets from the Lyman (49th) manual are what I use when I load plated bullets in my .40 S&W. Unsurprisingly, I get mid-range velocities and reliable operation. It has worked for me.

[Pond, James Pond]

So it really looks like a charge of about 10.5gn is a good place to start, with perhaps a few % off.
So maybe start about about 10.3, to 10.6 then 10.9 and top out at 11.2gn.

4 charges to work with to see which gives good accuracy. The lower the charge the better, actually, as follow-ups are an issue!!

Thoughts?

[LE-28]

I got a reply from H&N bullets. It is as follows:

Dear xxxx,

Thank you for your interest in our products.

It depends a little bit on the caliber. Round about 400 – 450 m/s.

Rifle bullets are only for a reduced load.

We have some reloading data at our website.

Kind regards

Mit freundlichen Grüßen

[email protected]
www.hn-sport.de

James,

450m/s works out to 1476.384fps so you should be good with this bullet and the loads you listed.

Uncle Nick,
I've shot thin copper plated, soft cored bullets too fast and too hot and left round balls of copper plating welded to the bore and forcing cone of my revolver.

Since then I stay within recommended speeds from the manufacturer for the bullets I'm using.

[Pond, James Pond]

James,

450m/s works out to 1476.384fps so you should be good with this bullet and the loads you listed.

Right, then. Bench? Here I come...

[mikld]

An easy and safe method for those new to plated bullets is use lead bullet data, and don't bother with a "formula" The suggestions of "mid-jacketed data" is for maximum velocities, up to "destruction levels". I discovered plated bullets a few years ago and have used lead data and have had no bullets stuck in the barrel and no problems with stripping the plating, approx 1100 rounds.

[Hammerhead]

Plated bullets shoot to the speeds predicted for jacketed bullets, or even slower, so I use jacketed data.
How slow are they?
http://38super.net/Pages/How%20Fast.html

[Pond, James Pond]

An easy and safe method for those new to plated bullets is use lead bullet data, and don't bother with a "formula" The suggestions of "mid-jacketed data" is for maximum velocities, up to "destruction levels".

Ordinarily I would, but on this occasion, despite finding 200gn LRN data, none included charges with N320 which is my powder of choice for these cartridges.