12 ga. Home Defense Shell?

[CharlesBronson]

Hello...could someone recommend a good home defense shell for a 12 ga semi automatic shotgun?

JTS AK-T1 18" 12 GAUGE SHOTGUN 3" SEMI-AUTO, BLACK - M12AK-T1



I'm looking for recommendations that take into account over penetration or...I'm looking for a round that won't shoot through a wall and kill a friendly...or...if it did shoot through 1 wall...it wouldn't kill a person.

I'm thinking 2 3/4 #8 Birdshot - any thoughts? Thank you in advance!

Interesting Video...
https://youtu.be/zaR1EVybUgc

Another Interesting Video...
https://youtu.be/gq3RVvL9ZjU

[L-2]

OP, also look at/read this website's info on shotgun rounds:
https://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box...e-box-o-truth/

The choice is yours and there's no guarantee or magic shotgun ammo which will only hit & stop your (human) threat, yet if you miss, won't go through a wall or walls.

[Rob228]

Birdshot isn't it. Look for #1 or #4 Buckshot if you are worried about over-penetration, and then see which brand patterns better in your gun. Federal w/ flight control wad has set the bar pretty high for tight patterns with buckshot.

[CharlesBronson]

Originally Posted by L-2

OP, also look at/read this website's info on shotgun rounds:
https://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box...e-box-o-truth/

The choice is yours and there's no guarantee or magic shotgun ammo which will only hit & stop your (human) threat, yet if you miss, won't go through a wall or walls.

Thank you...good stuff to think about!

[CharlesBronson]

I've purchased a box of the below...just to do some testing.

I believe the below is what they are referring to...2 3/4, 1 1/8 oz, STS 12 GA Birdshot #8

[Rob228]

That stuff is great for trap shooting, and I used to have the re-loaders buy the hulls from me for $0.10 a piece. But it is not going to do what you want against humans.

[CharlesBronson]

Originally Posted by Rob228

That stuff is great for trap shooting, and I used to have the re-loaders buy the hulls from me for $0.10 a piece. But it is not going to do what you want against humans.

I'm not disagreeing with you...bottom line...I don't know enough to disagree with you but...how do you respond to the 2 videos I posted in my original post?

[CharlesBronson]

I really wish I would have started getting into this stuff (guns and hunting) years ago but...now I'm 50 and just starting. Oh sure, I know a little...I was in the Navy and was on the security force and had to qualify on the M14, Mossberg Pump and 1911 but...I really don't know much. I've owned a Browning A5 12 GA for years and have killed a deer but didn't dress it. Oh well...hope an old dog can be taught new ticks...lol

Oh...and the deer I killed...I think was suicidal or something!

[Rob228]

He had as he said 8-10 pellets make it into the heart. Those are tiny pellets that are going to take a while for the person to bleed out from. Also, in the penetration tests of drywall he was not shooting through a human first.


#4 Buck is (I don't remember for certain) but I want to say 24 pellets, and they cut a much bigger hole than #8 shot. If you feel more comfortable with #8 shot, that is your journey, and no, no one wants to be hit with it, I won't go smaller than #4 buck.

[MarkCO]

For SD, you want slugs or buck.

For mag fed autoloaders, you want smooth, not skived, hulls. They are finicky and what runs in one might not run in a sister gun.

#4 Buck with buffered shot is typically the least finicky in auto-loaders, so that is where I would start. I'd pick up a few boxes and try them before you get too involved.

[CharlesBronson]

Originally Posted by Rob228

He had as he said 8-10 pellets make it into the heart. Those are tiny pellets that are going to take a while for the person to bleed out from. Also, in the penetration tests of drywall he was not shooting through a human first.


#4 Buck is (I don't remember for certain) but I want to say 24 pellets, and they cut a much bigger hole than #8 shot. If you feel more comfortable with #8 shot, that is your journey, and no, no one wants to be hit with it, I won't go smaller than #4 buck.

Thank you sir! This is all great information and I really appreciate it!

[CharlesBronson]

Originally Posted by MarkCO

For SD, you want slugs or buck.

For mag fed autoloaders, you want smooth, not skived, hulls. They are finicky and what runs in one might not run in a sister gun.

#4 Buck with buffered shot is typically the least finicky in auto-loaders, so that is where I would start. I'd pick up a few boxes and try them before you get too involved.

I understand finicky! I've been testing various ammo on my S&W M&P 15-22 and it's been a journey! Fun tho :-)

[Screwball]

Sparknotes version… birdshot is for birds and clays. Unless you have a group of either of those attacking you… don’t use birdshot.

I understand the overpenetration argument… but if that’s your concern, maybe consider something different. Jeff Quinn was a good guy, and definitely sad that he passed away. Paul Harrell… good guy. However, I do agree with him, birdshot isn’t going to blow thru walls. But what happens with that when you shoot someone? I disagree with him… why? How many people have been hit with birdshot and not died? Remember that shooting with Dick Cheney? 78 year old guy hit in the upper torso and face… out of the hospital in three days. Guy is still alive, and quickly looking… is 94.

That being said, if a 78 year old lived… what’s going to happen to the 28 year old meth head, breaking in your house. When you hit him, he staggers and comes at you… are you going to put another round into him (see below)?

Hell, look at history… L/E moved away from 9mm because a round stopped short of a suspect’s heart, who in turn killed two FBI agents after that. Same wound was fatal, and if he surrendered… likely would have died on the way to the hospital. That gave way to the .40 revolution, and that literally just ended in the past few years (I have/shoot .40 only because locally, our F/I is trying to get rid of the old duty ammo, and an off duty gun is a legitimate way to do so). While I get overpenetration… I think you really should do an alternative method of alleviating that instead of a poor weapon/ammo choice. .22 Short doesn’t overpenetrate… but I don’t suggest we all use .22 Short for defense. While it seems apples/oranges, it is very similar of an argument to using birdshot.

Other ways to combat overpenetration? My old home was a ranch… had bedrooms at one end, with a hallway heading down near the entrance ways. If someone broke in, I wasn’t prancing thru the house… hunting him/them down. I’m getting in that hallway and have an 870 Police loaded with Winchester PDX1 (slug with three 00 buckshot behind it). Anyone I don’t want to shoot was with me… and if someone came towards us… boom! I had neighbors, but had a stone wood burning stove as backstop.

New house, similar method… even though weapons changed (ME is freer than NJ). Second floor, sit in the edge of the staircase, and keep people away from those upstairs. If I feel like it is tactically advantageous to go downstairs… I may, but I’m making sure those upstairs are protected. I don’t need a shotgun when I have a (soon to be) suppressed 9mm AR pistol.

For a semi-auto shotgun… you are going to be iffy if it will cycle certain loads. That low brass you linked, I’m going to go with a no. Definitely consider that before making your decision. I’d also add that box magazines and shotgun shells aren’t the best match. Stacked in a tube, they don’t deform… and I’ve confirmed that multiple times. Stacking on top of each other in a box… you’ll see them start to egg out. How quick and how long before your shotgun won’t feed them… your guess is as good as mine. Again, something to really consider.

Originally Posted by CharlesBronson

I understand finicky! I've been testing various ammo on my S&W M&P 15-22 and it's been a journey! Fun tho :-)

CCI… my M&P15/22 pistol runs awesomely reliable with it. Cannot wait to put a can on that, as well.

[kenny53]

I have #4 buck shot in mine. Never shot it in the house, but at 25 yards all 9 pellets where in a man sized target.

[CharlesBronson]

Originally Posted by Screwball

Sparknotes version… birdshot is for birds and clays. Unless you have a group of either of those attacking you… don’t use birdshot.

I understand the overpenetration argument… but if that’s your concern, maybe consider something different. Jeff Quinn was a good guy, and definitely sad that he passed away. Paul Harrell… good guy. However, I do agree with him, birdshot isn’t going to blow thru walls. But what happens with that when you shoot someone? I disagree with him… why? How many people have been hit with birdshot and not died? Remember that shooting with Dick Cheney? 78 year old guy hit in the upper torso and face… out of the hospital in three days. Guy is still alive, and quickly looking… is 94.

That being said, if a 78 year old lived… what’s going to happen to the 28 year old meth head, breaking in your house. When you hit him, he staggers and comes at you… are you going to put another round into him (see below)?

Hell, look at history… L/E moved away from 9mm because a round stopped short of a suspect’s heart, who in turn killed two FBI agents after that. Same wound was fatal, and if he surrendered… likely would have died on the way to the hospital. That gave way to the .40 revolution, and that literally just ended in the past few years (I have/shoot .40 only because locally, our F/I is trying to get rid of the old duty ammo, and an off duty gun is a legitimate way to do so). While I get overpenetration… I think you really should do an alternative method of alleviating that instead of a poor weapon/ammo choice. .22 Short doesn’t overpenetrate… but I don’t suggest we all use .22 Short for defense. While it seems apples/oranges, it is very similar of an argument to using birdshot.

Other ways to combat overpenetration? My old home was a ranch… had bedrooms at one end, with a hallway heading down near the entrance ways. If someone broke in, I wasn’t prancing thru the house… hunting him/them down. I’m getting in that hallway and have an 870 Police loaded with Winchester PDX1 (slug with three 00 buckshot behind it). Anyone I don’t want to shoot was with me… and if someone came towards us… boom! I had neighbors, but had a stone wood burning stove as backstop.

New house, similar method… even though weapons changed (ME is freer than NJ). Second floor, sit in the edge of the staircase, and keep people away from those upstairs. If I feel like it is tactically advantageous to go downstairs… I may, but I’m making sure those upstairs are protected. I don’t need a shotgun when I have a (soon to be) suppressed 9mm AR pistol.

For a semi-auto shotgun… you are going to be iffy if it will cycle certain loads. That low brass you linked, I’m going to go with a no. Definitely consider that before making your decision. I’d also add that box magazines and shotgun shells aren’t the best match. Stacked in a tube, they don’t deform… and I’ve confirmed that multiple times. Stacking on top of each other in a box… you’ll see them start to egg out. How quick and how long before your shotgun won’t feed them… your guess is as good as mine. Again, something to really consider.



CCI… my M&P15/22 pistol runs awesomely reliable with it. Cannot wait to put a can on that, as well.

GREAT post! I wasn't even thinking about what the magazine will do to the shells over time...something I'll have to test at the range this weekend (I have some dove shells in a mag at the moment).

As for the 15-22...yep...I've been having good luck with CCI Standard Velocity.

Also had good success with Remington Brass Plated Hollow Points - Golden Bullet, 36 grams, 1,280 fps but...should have...it's a higher end round...lol.

I have 2 Mossberg 715T's...I'm still working those out. Definitely not the quality rifle the 15-22 is!

[CharlesBronson]

Originally Posted by kenny53

I have #4 buck shot in mine. Never shot it in the house, but at 25 yards all 9 pellets where in a man sized target.

#4 has definitely been recommended.

[CharlesBronson]

TO Screwball:

CCI… my M&P15/22 pistol runs awesomely reliable with it. Cannot wait to put a can on that, as well.

What do you mean by "can"...what's that? --Drum mag? Optics?...I have a red dot.

[Screwball]

Originally Posted by CharlesBronson

What do you mean by "can"...what's that? --Drum mag? Optics?...I have a red dot.

Suppressor…

https://ruggedsuppressors.com/rimfir...sors/oculus22/

[CharlesBronson]

Originally Posted by Screwball

Suppressor…

https://ruggedsuppressors.com/rimfir...sors/oculus22/

Ohhhhh...now that's delicious!!!

[L-2]

When I was working, and I've carried some of these habits forward into my retirement regarding shotgun ammo.

We were issued 00 buck and 1 oz. slugs. With the micro-managers writing policies, we were also told to load the 00 buck into the mag tube, with the slugs stored for an alternative round. Some of us thought this loading status should have been reversed (slugs in mag tube; then 00 buck as the spare/alternate ammo) or to just let each LEO decide for themselves.

In another department where I worked, we were only issued 00 buck, but a supervisor (Sergeant) supposedly was allowed to carry slugs within his patrol car or on his person. I never understood that practice/policy, if it was even in writing.

There will be decisions and tactics to consider in a shooting. If there's some doubt there may be "innocents" beyond the threat and you're unsure you can definitely hit that threat, that may be a good reason not to take the shot. Can you get low and shoot upward(?); can you get to higher ground and shoot downward(?); will a single slug projectile be somehow safer than the spread of 8 or 9 pellets(?); what will be the distance to threat and what will be the expected shot spread(?); all considerations which might be in your head, even though subconsciously being considered in a fraction of a second.

When I practice, I'll typically use 12 gauge 7.5 shot for shooting, and loading manipulations, but I'm usually fairly close and only destroying cardboard/paper. For distances over ~15 yards is when I'll need to transition to shooting the 1 oz. slugs as the 00 buck pattern tends to spread enough to possibly miss a human sized target depending on how a given brand/model of 00 buck patterned/spread and at what distance.

There are many factors/considerations but it's good to be considering what ammo to buy/use.

[CharlesBronson]

Originally Posted by L-2

When I was working, and I've carried some of these habits forward into my retirement regarding shotgun ammo.

We were issued 00 buck and 1 oz. slugs. With the micro-managers writing policies, we were also told to load the 00 buck into the mag tube, with the slugs stored for an alternative round. Some of us thought this loading status should have been reversed (slugs in mag tube; then 00 buck as the spare/alternate ammo) or to just let each LEO decide for themselves.

In another department where I worked, we were only issued 00 buck, but a supervisor (Sergeant) supposedly was allowed to carry slugs within his patrol car or on his person. I never understood that practice/policy, if it was even in writing.

There will be decisions and tactics to consider in a shooting. If there's some doubt there may be "innocents" beyond the threat and you're unsure you can definitely hit that threat, that may be a good reason not to take the shot. Can you get low and shoot upward(?); can you get to higher ground and shoot downward(?); will a single slug projectile be somehow safer than the spread of 8 or 9 pellets(?); what will be the distance to threat and what will be the expected shot spread(?); all considerations which might be in your head, even though subconsciously being considered in a fraction of a second.

When I practice, I'll typically use 12 gauge 7.5 shot for shooting, and loading manipulations, but I'm usually fairly close and only destroying cardboard/paper. For distances over ~15 yards is when I'll need to transition to shooting the 1 oz. slugs as the 00 buck pattern tends to spread enough to possibly miss a human sized target depending on how a given brand/model of 00 buck patterned/spread and at what distance.

There are many factors/considerations but it's good to be considering what ammo to buy/use.

It really is mind numbing when you really set back and think about all this stuff…all the variables! I’m almost thinking…pray to win the lottery and hire a bunch of tough guys…lol Thank you for the insight and thank you for your years of service as a police officer!

[rc]

I'm not against birdshot like most people. I've placed a 20 gauge next to a 2x4. Punches right through with #8. Step back and hit a steel can with #8 and some of the shot will be rattling around in the can and some will bounce off. Close shot acts like a solid slug but with any distance it spreads apart and penetration suffers as it is dependent on per pellet energy. However, I would suggest a good pheasant load with #4 or at the smallest #6 shot. Some of the personal defense ammo is loaded with #2 bird shot. Lead #2 became scarce when lead was outlawed for geese but there are some coyote loads, turkey loads and self defense loads that have #2 birdshot. Even #4 buck will have a considerable ability to penetrate walls. #4 pheasant loads are simply a good compromise if you are in a situation where penetration of walls is your most important criteria such as in an apartment. It is the largest common bird shot found in 25 round boxes. A buddy ER dock talked about pulling the wad out of a guy. He was DOA full of bird shot to the chest. At bedroom distances, #4 birdshot if placed appropriately will be a fight stopper in my humble opinion based on my limited experience and knowledge. Learn to stage your shells putting in the largest shot first such as #4 buck with #4 Bird shot on top. That way if someone won't go down, you have some large shot on tap.

There is also some BB shot loads out there for coyotes to consider.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/mgm-content..._loads_640.jpg


https://www.bing.com/images/search?v...=0&vt=0&sim=11

[Terrierman]

Here's what Dave McCracken said to begin a thread that is stickied on another site:

The dog gave enough warning for you to get the kids into your bedroom and the shotgun out. Behind you, your spouse is calling 911 on the cell phone and holding a revolver. You're covering the top of the stairs as heavy boots clump towards the top floor.....

What your shotgun is loaded with will be of less importance than skills, training, and tactics, but ammo does count. I field a couple queries each week, so this is of great interest to a large number of people.

Here's my opinions and advice based on fact, not movies or wishful thinking....

First,some stuff to avoid.

Less lethal stuff like rubber buckshot or tear gas loads. It's regarded as Use of Deadly Force even when the police do it, and they do it when backed up by cops with real ammo in their firearms. That's in case L/L doesn't work.

There's a clue there. Use something more likely to STOP someone when that is desperately needed.

Also, avoid anything with a name like "Ultimate Deathmaster" or skulls on the box.

Don't laugh,it happens and PT Barnum was right, one IS born every minute.

Anything exotic like Dragon's Breath, bird bombs, buckshot strung together on a wire,etc.10 thin dimes would also be a bad idea. So would be reloads.

Any shooting, justified or not, will be scrutinized under a microscope by LE folks who are not necessarily your friends.

There is a case for and against using birdshot. Sometimes it works well. Usually that's at extremely close range where the wad still contains the shot,acting like a giant Glaser Safety Slug.

Sometimes it creates ghastly but shallow wounds. Since STOPPING the threat usually involves disrupting the Central Nervous System grossly, these shallow wounds do not suffice.

Bigger pellets penetrate farther. The common name for big pellets is buckshot, from its use in deer hunting. Common US sizes are 000 ( about .36 caliber), 00 (.33), 1 (.30), and so on.

4 buck(.24) is the smallest. The largest buckshot that fits in a 20 gauge is 2 buck, but 3 is more available. 1 buck is the biggest for 16 gauge.

00 is the choice for most police agencies and lots of us civilians. 8 or 9 00 pellets at a reasonable muzzle velocity has plenty of energy to transfer and a lot of frontal surface to help that happen. Even three to five 00 or 000 pellets can make the miniscule 410 into an effective close range tool.

00 also patterns tighter than the smaller stuff, all else equal. And that brings up another point.

Some folks like spread, thinking it can make up for bad aim under stressful conditions.

Others, including me, prefer a small pattern putting ALL that energy into the right place.

Forensic experts tell me that the most effective load will have all the pellets in 5-8 inches.

Of course, the biggest pellet is one bore sized chunk of lead, usually called a "Slug".

These have some use for defense but not inside. If they are designed to penetrate a deer broadside and exit, they can pose a threat of overpenetration inside a building. Few of us are that rural that an errant slug poses no threat to anyone.

Buckshot will also penetrate drywall and similar materials, but less so. It behooves us to become adept wiith our defensive tools until we can place that load where it needs to be in a very short time frame and do so without endangering innocents.

Questions, comments, rants?

[GeauxTide]

I have 7.5 shot in mine. Any buckshot will shoot through the walls and most studs at across the room ranges. Besides, poppin a perp across the room with 7.5s is devastating.

[Pumpkin]

I would hate to be on the wrong end of a 3" 20 or 12 ga with high brass #6 or larger shot inside the confines of a house.