|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Search | Today's Posts | Mark Forums Read |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
March 25, 2019, 08:36 PM | #76 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 4, 2013
Location: Western slope of Colorado
Posts: 3,678
|
Quote:
|
|
March 25, 2019, 09:09 PM | #77 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 24, 2005
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 768
|
The .40 isn't going anywhere, maybe it has lost some popularity but overall, if an agency switches from .40 to 9mm it isn't because the 9mm is better or as good, it's about money, pure and simple. Many agencies do still use the .40, so it's not dying by any means. Someone else here mentioned it and I've never really thought about it much, but it's true, the .45 ACP has been pretty stale for a long time. I can't think of too many, if any, hot new .45 ACPs on the market, it usually requires a larger gun. It just so happens to be that 9mm is very popular right now, and that's due to many factors (largely the interest in small handguns) and I'm not saying it's a bad cartridge, but it's not a .40 or a .45.
Personally I love the .40, I can't really find fault with it. I get a 9mm sized frame and 9mm like capacity with the ability to punch bigger holes. It's got a lot of unrealized potential as well that many aren't even aware of. |
March 26, 2019, 09:56 AM | #78 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 19, 2005
Location: S.E. Michigan
Posts: 219
|
Quote:
We won't come to an agreement on this point, so there's little point in pursuing it. I only wanted to point out I was not misrepresenting your argument. |
|
March 26, 2019, 11:17 PM | #79 | ||
Staff
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 24,929
|
Quote:
Quote:
He stated that the "functional difference" between the two "is virtually none". Your restatement of his claim was: "the difference between the two is virtually none".
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
|
||
March 27, 2019, 01:05 AM | #80 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 6, 2011
Location: Burien,WA
Posts: 897
|
Hence came along the 45 Super there Sharkbite.
__________________
Rugers:SR1911 CMD,MK 3 .22lr 6",Sec. Six '76 liberty .357 4",SRH .480 Ruger 7.5",Mini-14 188 5.56/.233 18.5", Marlins: 795 .22lr 16.5",30aw 30-30 20",Mossberg:Mav. 88 Tact. 12 ga, 18.5",ATR 100 .270 Win. 22",S&W:SW9VE 9mm 4",Springfield:XD .357sig 4", AKs:CAI PSL-54C, WASR 10/63, WW74,SLR-106c |
March 27, 2019, 05:01 AM | #81 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 29, 2005
Location: Orlando FL
Posts: 1,934
|
Never owned a .40 S&W anything. When I was a Board Member of IALEFI, I was the first to bring a 9mm into the group. "If you cannot do it with 6?" crowd, spoke out. I even coined a phrase. "More is better, always" In 1984, my Glock 17 was an oddity.
With the many different bullet types, weights, velocities in the defensive calibres, any of them work. Placement is king, 9mm is cheapest. Nuff said. |
March 27, 2019, 09:39 AM | #82 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 19, 2005
Location: S.E. Michigan
Posts: 219
|
Quote:
So let me clarify: I disagree with his assertion there is virtually no functional difference between the 9mm and .40 S&W. |
|
March 27, 2019, 09:40 AM | #83 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 12,181
|
Quote:
__________________
Know the status of your weapon Keep your muzzle oriented so that no one will be hurt if the firearm discharges Keep your finger off the trigger until you have an adequate sight picture Maintain situational awareness |
|
March 27, 2019, 09:51 AM | #84 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 22, 2016
Posts: 2,192
|
Quote:
With that portion said, and considering functional as a defensive firearm, what situation do you intend to assert where a .40 would be functionally different than a 9MM (assuming both using high quality ammunition)? Remember also that my assertion that there was virtually no functional difference between a .40 and a 9MM was a premise in an argument that the .40 would never die. Being functional similar to the long standing most popular handgun cartridge in the world does not seem like it would be a negative thing .
__________________
A coward believes he will ever live if he keep him safe from strife: but old age leaves him not long in peace though spears may spare his life. - The Havamal (Bray translation) |
|
March 27, 2019, 01:40 PM | #85 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 23, 2008
Location: Indiana
Posts: 697
|
Given two projectiles a different diameter, or different expanded diameter, assuming all else is equal (entry wound position, projectile path, depth of penetration) the wounding potential of the larger projectile will be greater in cases in which the smaller projectile just barely missed a critical structure.
How often will this happen? Probably quite few to very few instances, but if you think it never happens you are wrong. I have seen gunshot wounds in the operating room in which the projectile just barely missed a major pulmonary artery, or the descending aorta, in which the wall of the vessel was nicked but the lumen was not penetrated. In such instances, the wound from a projectile of slightly greater diameter would have produced a dramatically different outcome. Projectile momentum also comes into play. Larger projectiles typically have greater momentum than smaller ones. Projectiles with greater momentum are more likely to continue on course without deviating when they encounter interfaces of greater density, especially when the encounter those interfaces at an angle. Human tissue consists of structures of vastly different density and are also highly anisotropic, completely unlike ballistic gelatin. So the advantage of greater projectile momentum is virtually never brought out in ballistic gelatin tests/ Last edited by pblanc; March 27, 2019 at 01:46 PM. |
March 27, 2019, 01:49 PM | #86 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 22, 2016
Posts: 2,192
|
Quote:
Its an easy, and accurate, premise as long as your caveat holds but I don't think its actually that simple when we are discussing what happens in the case of the "real" world (I can't come up with a better term and that is not meant to be derisive). In the end the .40 is NOT dying anytime in my generation or that of my children. If you believe it is a better round for you, for whatever reason, you are welcome to it. I still think your grasping at straws to differentiate it from a 9MM (or a 9MM from it) but its really not any harm done for you to carry whatever you want. Last edited by Lohman446; March 27, 2019 at 01:57 PM. |
|
March 27, 2019, 09:08 PM | #87 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 28, 2001
Location: CA
Posts: 1,742
|
I shoot 9mm more than 40 due to cost of ammo. That's the main reason 9mm beats 40 in places like California where 10 rounds for civilians is the law. In addition, the 40 is a bit harsh on small autos that are becoming more popular for CCW where the 9mm does a great job. I bought a K9 rather than a K40 for CCW because it's more controllable and easier on the gun. In a full size gun 40 has an edge over 9 using comparable ammo and is greatly superior to 9 in many cases nearing 357 magnum in effectiveness. Gun sales are in a slump with Trump but the sky is not falling and we will continue to see 40 caliber autos roll off the assembly line. I'm sure 9 out sells most other pistol calibers.
|
March 28, 2019, 09:24 AM | #88 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 19, 2005
Location: S.E. Michigan
Posts: 219
|
My argument is essentially addressed by pblanc, with your caveats noted and conceded.
|
March 28, 2019, 03:20 PM | #89 |
Member
Join Date: October 8, 2009
Posts: 21
|
40 dying
It's more the 9mm growing due to the price of ammo. At ~ $.05 a shot difference many chose to save.
|
March 28, 2019, 06:26 PM | #90 |
Member
Join Date: February 17, 2014
Posts: 53
|
I am sure it will never completely die, but it is dead with me. I converted my Glock 23 to a 9mm and sold off my remaining .40 ammo. Happy with my decision and never looking back.
|
March 28, 2019, 06:45 PM | #91 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 12,181
|
Quote:
Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk |
|
March 28, 2019, 07:39 PM | #92 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 15, 2010
Posts: 1,850
|
TunnelRat I think you can credit the current situation to perception. Many perceive (rightly so IMO)that 9 mm offers nearly identical wound characteristics for less money, more capacity, smaller platforms and faster shots on target. Of course I could be wrong, your mileage may vary, etc.
__________________
"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Benjamin Franklin |
March 28, 2019, 11:29 PM | #93 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 28, 2019
Posts: 108
|
LE agencies might issue a handgun chambered for a specific cartridge; however, LE agencies generally allow their cops to carry approved handguns and cartridges.
I've read the FBI is going with the 9MM, but we don't know handgun and cartridges its cops will carry. The .40 S&W is here to stay. It's efficacy has been demonstrated. |
March 29, 2019, 08:23 PM | #94 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 9, 2002
Location: northern CA for a little while longer
Posts: 1,930
|
A new generation of LE firearms trainers - and shooters - are finding it easier and faster to create practical and competent skillsets using 9mm than .40, .45 or .357SIG.
It doesn't hurt that the recoil forces developed by the 9mm is often considered easier on guns (maintenance-wise) than the heavier recoiling calibers, too (according to gun makers who teach armorer classes for LE). Nor does it hurt that the folks who prefer slightly higher magazine capacity can realize a slight gain when changing from .40 to 9mm. Depending on how LE/Gov ammunition contracts or individual agency purchases may be done, it's not uncommon for 9mm to cost a bit less than .40 or .45, too. This is just one of those "swings" of caliber preference that occurs now and again in LE/Gov circles. No biggie. Caliber diversification for the private owner and shooting enthusiast can help make it easier to find ammo when one or another caliber may become less easily found, too.
__________________
Retired LE - firearms instructor & armorer |
March 29, 2019, 10:27 PM | #95 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 13, 2001
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 1,183
|
Just put a M&P 40 on lay-a-way----basically to convert to .357 Sig---didn't hurt that a local dealer had them priced to sell.
__________________
I take the leech that's bleeding me Can't stop to save my soul I take the leash that's leading me -------Metallica |
March 30, 2019, 04:09 AM | #96 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 29, 2005
Location: Orlando FL
Posts: 1,934
|
Personly, my thoughts on 40 Vs 9mm, it is the ability to get back on the sights!
So more hits, quicker, all things being equal, so to speak. Having the same gun, in the same place, always, is a bonus. |
March 30, 2019, 10:10 AM | #97 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 24, 2005
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 768
|
I understand the logic behind faster follow up shots, but most of this is done at the range using basic 115gr or 124gr FMJ, then usually when people carry a JHP for defense, which is what we train for, it's mostly a +P or +P+ variant which kinda brings the faster follow up shots argument into question. The two don't have the same recoil characteristic.
At least with the .40, the recoil signature of what you practice with is going to be identical to what you carry, not so much with 9mm unless you carry standard pressure 115gr or 124gr, which not many do (exception being the 147gr). Everyone is different, but I could only tell a slight difference between shooting a G19 and G23 side by side (115/124gr vs. 180gr), so slight that there's no way the added recoil of the .40 would hinder my shot placement or drive me to accept a smaller caliber, lower powered 9mm. I've legitimately tried to switch from .40 to 9mm on three occasions and I can't do it. The .40 has much more potential in it than the 9mm does. Last edited by Ruger45LC; March 30, 2019 at 10:16 AM. |
March 30, 2019, 09:05 PM | #98 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 22, 2016
Posts: 2,192
|
Quote:
__________________
A coward believes he will ever live if he keep him safe from strife: but old age leaves him not long in peace though spears may spare his life. - The Havamal (Bray translation) |
|
March 31, 2019, 03:28 AM | #99 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 29, 2005
Location: Orlando FL
Posts: 1,934
|
This argument has been around for years. Basically to each his own.
My longtime favourite carry pistol, the Gen 4 Glock 19, just seems to be the perfect weapon, to carry concealed. 16 rounds of controllable 147g Ranger T. Ready to go. In a medium weight pistol. After years of this carry, just bought a blue box Glock 43X. Love it, not even fired it yet. I have two holsters for it, a Bravo Kydex pancake, and a Safariland lock type, off and on a type that slips into the pants. Not keen on either. Feels great in the quick pointing Dept. Expecting Glock to come out any time soon with my favourite carry holster, the $13.00 belt slide for the 43 series? Suitably chopped up, for my G19, and now for my 43X? Not so much. The night sights are the ones fitted at the factory? Have a big red circle around the front green Trigiden front sight. Real quick to spot. Glock have a mag pouch for the 43 series. My first new pistol in years, love it. 11 and not 16? Jury is out on that question. Last edited by Brit; April 2, 2019 at 01:36 AM. |
March 31, 2019, 09:51 AM | #100 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 18, 2015
Location: PA
Posts: 1,835
|
Quote:
For me, it hasn’t been a 9mm vs. .40 S&W debate, it’s been a .40 S&W vs. .45 ACP debate, and in that case, I’m choosing .45 ACP just about every time. I like my 1911’s, always have & always will. My Gen4 Glock 21 replaced a Gen4 Glock 22, no regrets there. My HK45 replaced an HK USP40, although I wouldn’t mind getting another USP40 / Compact if I come across a nice one. As far as getting other .40 S&W caliber handguns, I can see me with a Beretta 96FS at some point. And if Glock releases the Gen 5 22/23/27 then that tells me that the .40 S&W has a good future. You may or may not like their product but Glock is a bellweather for the firearms industry and their market research is top notch.
__________________
Words to Live By: Before You Pray - Believe; Before You Speak - Listen; Before You Spend - Earn; Before You Write - Think; Before You Quit - Try; Before You Die - Live |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|