17 Rimfire Vs 17 Centerfire

Roamin_Wade · March 5, 2019, 11:39 AM

What are the pros and cons of 17 caliber rifles, both rimfire and centerfire? Also, to anyone reading this that has a 17 cal rifle, which 17 did you go with and why?

Sharkbite · March 5, 2019, 12:23 PM

I use a 17 HMR almost exclusively for P-dogs here in western Colorado. The gun is a Ruger American predator with a Silencer Spectre II can.

That little rimfire is AWESOME. Zero recoil, you see your hits. Quiet enough for no ear pro. At anything under 200yds Its certain death.

Wind is an issue with that super light bullet, but when it hits its impressive.

NoSecondBest · March 5, 2019, 12:34 PM

The single biggest problem with rimfire .17 ammo is that it varies quite a bit from brand to brand and lot to lot. I have a 17HMR that is an outstanding tack driver.....with some ammo and lot numbers. I have fired five shot groups with this ammo that measure under .5" at 100 yards out of one box and the next box of ammo will fire 1.5" for five shots. Some other brands and weights do even worse. With a center fire you will get much more consistency and can count on your good loads shooting very well each and every time. The down side to center fire (if you can call it a down side....I don't) is that you have to load the ammo. Rimfire you just buy it and go shooting. Centerfire requires a bit of work on your part to make the ammo. One other thing about centerfire is that it is generally better at longer distances. The .17hmr is at most a 200 yard gun, and that's stretching it a bit. A 17Hornet is a pretty decent 250 yard gun and maybe even 300 yards on a good day. The only true competition to the Hornet is the 17WSM in rimfire, and it's noted as being even more inconsistent than the 17hmr as far as ammo goes. Depending on your actual needs, the 17hmr can be a very adequate cartridge. If you're not going to be shooting over 200 yards, and 1.5-2.0moa is within your criteria, it's probably going to be a better choice. You get a box of 50 for around twelve bucks and all you have to do is load and shoot. If you plan on doing a bunch of shooting at 200+ yards the center fire is the better choice. Just a couple of things to think about.

scottycoyote · March 5, 2019, 01:02 PM

17hm2 is the best squirrel round produced imo.......flat as a laser at the usual squirrel distances out to 100 yards or so

at one time the hm2 was hard to come by but recently its abundant...if you buy one id stock up with a couple bricks to get you thru any ammo droughts in the future tho

T. O'Heir · March 5, 2019, 01:36 PM

"...rim fire and center fire..." That's an apples or oranges question. They just are not the same or even related.
"...single biggest problem with rim fire .17 ammo..." It's not the .17 cal part that does that. It's the rim fire part. With any rim fire, you must try a box of as many brands and bullet weights as you can to find the ammo your rifle shoots best. Cycling usually isn't an issue, but in the case of a semi-auto, the ammo has to do that reliably too.
And all that is is you can find the ammo where you are. That applies to .17 calibre centre fire ammo as well. One of the guys coined the term "The Wal-Mart Test" If you can buy it there, it should be in all Wally Worlds. "Should" being the operative word.

Don Fischer · March 5, 2019, 03:28 PM

I would not own a 17 cal. I shot a 17 Rem when it first came out and there was some wind. Blew the bullet's all over. The 222 Rem I owned you could also watch the bullet's hit with and recoil was just not there. Those little 50gr bullet's at about 3100-3200 fps shot plenty fast enough. These days I don't even own a 22 CF. Have a 22 mag and my son has a couple 17 RF's and he hasn't been able to show me any good reason to change.

Scorch · March 5, 2019, 03:46 PM

Biggest problem with .17 caliber ANYTHING is the bore is very small and is difficult to clean because of its size (small cleaning rod, small brushes, small jags, small patches). I remember really enjoying my 17HMR for the first few boxes of ammo, then the buildup of fouling finally started opening up the groups. Even though I have been a shooter my whole adult life, I did not have anything to clean the rifle with. Bought a good cleaning rod and brush and jag and got it back to shooting acceptably, but finding the right equipment would be my first caveat about a .17. 17 Remington has a reputation for fouling bores.

jpx2rk · March 5, 2019, 05:38 PM

I've got a Savage 93r17hmr, and it's a fun gun to shoot, pretty accurate so far at 50, I'm still testing to see which ammo it likes the best. Had a lot of split necks with the Winchester brand ammo, so I'm avoiding it at all costs. I've got maybe 2 bricks of ammo right now, just waiting on the rain to go away long enough to dry out the range so I don't have to take my boat with me to the range.

armednfree · March 5, 2019, 10:06 PM

I had a 17 Remington once. Jaded me on the 17 for life. Pressures would spike very quickly. It would foul in very few rounds. Cleaning it was a PITA.

Kills on woodchucks, unimpressive. But it was fast.

FrankenMauser · March 6, 2019, 12:49 AM

Pros:
They're fast.
All of them.

Cons:
.17 caliber barrels are known for copper-fouling very quickly.
They require "special" cleaning tools.
The wind plays hell with the light bullets.

I went for .17-223. Why? Who doesn't want 4,000 fps out of a .223-class cartridge with less recoil than an airgun?
Plus... I inadvertently ended up with 1,900+ .17 caliber bullets through auction lot purchases where I was after other items of greater value, and haven't been able to sell the bullets for any reasonable value. ...That was a big factor. (I wasn't asking for MSRP - but I also wasn't going to take $2 per factory-sealed box.)
How does it shoot? Wish I could tell you. I'm still waiting on the barrel to show up.......
I do already have all of the necessary cleaning tools, though.

If I were to choose a rimfire .17, it would be .17 WSM for speed (not the B.Mag!), .17 HMR for ammo availability, or .17 HM2 for fun.

Geezerbiker · March 6, 2019, 02:50 AM

I went with the .17 Hornady Hornet. I often thought about a .17 hornet and when Hornady standardize the wildcat round, I just had to get one. I wasn't interested in a non reloadable round and that took all the rimfires off the table...

Tony

Mobuck · March 6, 2019, 07:24 AM

I like the 17 HMR but also understand it's problems (susceptible to wind drift and often questionable bullet performance on bigger vermin).
I don't intend to get into handloading ANY 17 caliber so the little HMR allows shooting at reasonable cost vs a centerfire.
The kids love the HMR. It gives them a big boost over the 22lr when busting vegetables at the range and is adequate for closer range coyotes. I use a suppressed HMR during pest removal jobs and find it better than a 22lr for those purposes.

Roamin_Wade · March 11, 2019, 09:22 AM

How many .17 cal designs are there not counting current experimental's?
1. 17 Mach2
2. 17 HMR
3. 17 WSM
4. 17 Rem
5. 17 Rem Fireball

Thats all I can think of but it seems like I'm missing a couple.

FrankenMauser · March 11, 2019, 10:37 AM

Your word choice makes that difficult to answer.
There are some extremely well-established wildcats that probably exceed the .17 WSM and .17 HM2 (and .17 Aguila) in popularity, combined. They're beyond experimental, and have well established load data and chamber dimensions - even if not recognized by SAAMI. One cannot, however, buy ammunition for them from WalMart. ...But you can't do that with .416 Rigby, either.

What do you mean by "experimental"?
Wildcats? - Like .17-223, .17 TCM, etc.
Or weird/illogical crap that will never catch on, even if it is moderately interesting? - Like .17 B&D, .17 SPC, .17-284, etc.

'Standardized', 'wildcat', and 'experimental' cartridges are not a subject as black and white as many people want to believe.

Everyone knows what the 8mm-06 is. It's even a standardized cartridge. However, the standard version of the cartridge cannot be chambered, nor can factory ammo be made for it, because the rights to the cartridge are tied up in legal disputes. A-Square owned the rights when the company folded. Now, if someone wants to run that "standard" cartridge, a modified (experimental?) version must be used.

Nearly everyone in the gun world knows what .458 SOCOM is. Nearly everyone in the gun world probably knows someone that owns a .458 SOCOM. In some parts of the country, one can even buy ammo for it at WalMart.

.458 SOCOM is not, however, a SAAMI-approved cartridge. Nor is it standardized. There WAS a standard, which Tromix, Rock River, and a couple other companies still adhere to, for reliability, safety, and licensing reasons. But PTG, Wilson, and a couple other companies tweaked the chamber dimensions, in order to avoid Teppo Jutsu's copyright on the case and chamber design, and created variants that don't always play nicely with each other (or with the original).

.458 SOCOM is not just a wildcat, but a wildcat with "wildcats of the wildcat" being the chambers found in the majority of the rifles on the market.
Yet, you won't find many people that are going to consider it an "experimental" cartridge at this point.

What would be "experimental" in the .17 caliber world...?

J.G. Terry · March 12, 2019, 10:01 PM

I like to punch paper with the 17HMR. I cannot claim bench rest quality accuracy. My little low end 93R17 mounts and old Intensity scope. The rifle is totally stock. On the low end the 17 HMR is expensive to shoot at paper-you can use up a bunch of cartridges. I would feel comfortable using the rifle for 100-150 yard shots at, for example, a ground hog. I'm poised to take out a Yote in the migrations through my back yard.

Roamin_Wade · March 18, 2019, 08:25 AM

Yes FrankenMauser, I meant “experimental” to be the same as a “wildcat” round.

Geezerbiker · March 19, 2019, 12:28 AM

It's nice that Hornady made a standardized round very similar to the .17 Ackley Hornet. I don't think I would have bothered if I had to form cases for it...

Tony

Picher · March 20, 2019, 10:36 AM

I like the .17 HMR for smaller varmints up to woodchucks, under 130 yards due to our windy conditions, but for larger varmints and up to 300 yards, I prefer one of my three bolt-action .223 Rems with hand-loaded ammo and 53-55 grain varmint bullets.

If it's a windy day, I may even choose one of my .243 Win rifles.

Creek Henry · March 21, 2019, 09:29 PM

Does anyone still use the 221 fireball?

Panfisher · March 27, 2019, 07:34 PM

I was looking at a little Savage B Mag in 17 WSM, just a couple days ago. What is wrong with them. I was intrigued by something different.

FrankenMauser · March 27, 2019, 09:46 PM

Difficult for many shooters to cycle, flexible stocks that are known to warp, and just the simple fact that Savage went to cock-on-closing to make more money on the rifles. -It wasn't for any performance advantage, but purely so they could make them cheaper while charging just as much as they would for a cock-on-opening action that requires more machining (and usually a few more parts).

"Revolutionary Design" ... 128 years ago.

ocharry · March 28, 2019, 11:04 AM

i have one of the thumb hole target model Bmag 17WSM

it will do 1/2" or so at 100,,,BUT,,,i have beded it and did some muzzle work,,,(had a bad crown)

and like franken said it is cock on close,,,and the bolt handle is kind of weird i guess,,,but you kinda get used to it

while it is a screamer and it is very violent when it connects,,,like if you use it to squirrel hunt ONLY make head shots,,,,you wont have to worry about that part anymore!!!!

i got it to use as a go between from 22 and 223,,,does that just fine,,,only 17 i ever had,,,pain to clean,,,but it is fun to use

real draw back is that Winchester is the only ammo maker,,,no mater what the box says it all comes from the Winchester rimfire line,,,,so that kinda hurts it,,and sucks,,but the newer ones seem to be doing ok,,,the early ones gave a real Black Eye to the Bmag

i like it because it is a rimfire and i can shuck out the brass and not think about it,,,but i really do like the gun and the performance

i think if i was going to do it again i would maybe try a barrel from MGM for my TC

just my .02 from a owner,,,user

ocharry

Panfisher · March 30, 2019, 12:47 PM

Thanks, I only looked at the B mag for a few minutes. I noticed the bolt was "different" didn't notice it cock on closing. I did like the flush fit magazine, and was thinking it could fill the gap between a .22 LR and my too nice to toss in rhe back seat Ruger 7722H Hornet, and maybe a little more pop than my old .22 WMR Never owned a .17 anything befoe so partly just because something different too.

March 5, 2019, 11:39 AM	#1
Roamin_Wade Junior member Join Date: July 11, 2018 Location: Baytown, TX Posts: 220	17 Rimfire Vs 17 Centerfire What are the pros and cons of 17 caliber rifles, both rimfire and centerfire? Also, to anyone reading this that has a 17 cal rifle, which 17 did you go with and why?

March 5, 2019, 01:02 PM	#4
scottycoyote Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2005 Location: southwestern va Posts: 830	17hm2 is the best squirrel round produced imo.......flat as a laser at the usual squirrel distances out to 100 yards or so at one time the hm2 was hard to come by but recently its abundant...if you buy one id stock up with a couple bricks to get you thru any ammo droughts in the future tho __________________ "i got the most powerful gun in the world........an .88 magnum. It shoots thru schools......"

March 5, 2019, 01:36 PM	#5
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...rim fire and center fire..." That's an apples or oranges question. They just are not the same or even related. "...single biggest problem with rim fire .17 ammo..." It's not the .17 cal part that does that. It's the rim fire part. With any rim fire, you must try a box of as many brands and bullet weights as you can to find the ammo your rifle shoots best. Cycling usually isn't an issue, but in the case of a semi-auto, the ammo has to do that reliably too. And all that is is you can find the ammo where you are. That applies to .17 calibre centre fire ammo as well. One of the guys coined the term "The Wal-Mart Test" If you can buy it there, it should be in all Wally Worlds. "Should" being the operative word. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

March 5, 2019, 03:46 PM	#7
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	Biggest problem with .17 caliber ANYTHING is the bore is very small and is difficult to clean because of its size (small cleaning rod, small brushes, small jags, small patches). I remember really enjoying my 17HMR for the first few boxes of ammo, then the buildup of fouling finally started opening up the groups. Even though I have been a shooter my whole adult life, I did not have anything to clean the rifle with. Bought a good cleaning rod and brush and jag and got it back to shooting acceptably, but finding the right equipment would be my first caveat about a .17. 17 Remington has a reputation for fouling bores. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

March 6, 2019, 12:49 AM	#10
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	Pros: They're fast. All of them. Cons: .17 caliber barrels are known for copper-fouling very quickly. They require "special" cleaning tools. The wind plays hell with the light bullets. I went for .17-223. Why? Who doesn't want 4,000 fps out of a .223-class cartridge with less recoil than an airgun? Plus... I inadvertently ended up with 1,900+ .17 caliber bullets through auction lot purchases where I was after other items of greater value, and haven't been able to sell the bullets for any reasonable value. ...That was a big factor. (I wasn't asking for MSRP - but I also wasn't going to take $2 per factory-sealed box.) How does it shoot? Wish I could tell you. I'm still waiting on the barrel to show up....... I do already have all of the necessary cleaning tools, though. If I were to choose a rimfire .17, it would be .17 WSM for speed (not the B.Mag!), .17 HMR for ammo availability, or .17 HM2 for fun. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

March 5, 2019, 12:23 PM	#2
Sharkbite Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2013 Location: Western slope of Colorado Posts: 3,679	I use a 17 HMR almost exclusively for P-dogs here in western Colorado. The gun is a Ruger American predator with a Silencer Spectre II can. That little rimfire is AWESOME. Zero recoil, you see your hits. Quiet enough for no ear pro. At anything under 200yds Its certain death. Wind is an issue with that super light bullet, but when it hits its impressive.

March 5, 2019, 12:34 PM	#3
NoSecondBest Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2009 Location: Western New York Posts: 2,736	The single biggest problem with rimfire .17 ammo is that it varies quite a bit from brand to brand and lot to lot. I have a 17HMR that is an outstanding tack driver.....with some ammo and lot numbers. I have fired five shot groups with this ammo that measure under .5" at 100 yards out of one box and the next box of ammo will fire 1.5" for five shots. Some other brands and weights do even worse. With a center fire you will get much more consistency and can count on your good loads shooting very well each and every time. The down side to center fire (if you can call it a down side....I don't) is that you have to load the ammo. Rimfire you just buy it and go shooting. Centerfire requires a bit of work on your part to make the ammo. One other thing about centerfire is that it is generally better at longer distances. The .17hmr is at most a 200 yard gun, and that's stretching it a bit. A 17Hornet is a pretty decent 250 yard gun and maybe even 300 yards on a good day. The only true competition to the Hornet is the 17WSM in rimfire, and it's noted as being even more inconsistent than the 17hmr as far as ammo goes. Depending on your actual needs, the 17hmr can be a very adequate cartridge. If you're not going to be shooting over 200 yards, and 1.5-2.0moa is within your criteria, it's probably going to be a better choice. You get a box of 50 for around twelve bucks and all you have to do is load and shoot. If you plan on doing a bunch of shooting at 200+ yards the center fire is the better choice. Just a couple of things to think about.

March 5, 2019, 03:28 PM	#6
Don Fischer Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2017 Posts: 1,868	I would not own a 17 cal. I shot a 17 Rem when it first came out and there was some wind. Blew the bullet's all over. The 222 Rem I owned you could also watch the bullet's hit with and recoil was just not there. Those little 50gr bullet's at about 3100-3200 fps shot plenty fast enough. These days I don't even own a 22 CF. Have a 22 mag and my son has a couple 17 RF's and he hasn't been able to show me any good reason to change.

March 5, 2019, 05:38 PM	#8
jpx2rk Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2015 Posts: 387	I've got a Savage 93r17hmr, and it's a fun gun to shoot, pretty accurate so far at 50, I'm still testing to see which ammo it likes the best. Had a lot of split necks with the Winchester brand ammo, so I'm avoiding it at all costs. I've got maybe 2 bricks of ammo right now, just waiting on the rain to go away long enough to dry out the range so I don't have to take my boat with me to the range.

March 5, 2019, 10:06 PM	#9
armednfree Senior Member Join Date: October 30, 2016 Posts: 211	I had a 17 Remington once. Jaded me on the 17 for life. Pressures would spike very quickly. It would foul in very few rounds. Cleaning it was a PITA. Kills on woodchucks, unimpressive. But it was fast.

March 6, 2019, 02:50 AM	#11
Geezerbiker Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2011 Location: Willamina, OR Posts: 1,908	I went with the .17 Hornady Hornet. I often thought about a .17 hornet and when Hornady standardize the wildcat round, I just had to get one. I wasn't interested in a non reloadable round and that took all the rimfires off the table... Tony

March 6, 2019, 07:24 AM	#12
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	I like the 17 HMR but also understand it's problems (susceptible to wind drift and often questionable bullet performance on bigger vermin). I don't intend to get into handloading ANY 17 caliber so the little HMR allows shooting at reasonable cost vs a centerfire. The kids love the HMR. It gives them a big boost over the 22lr when busting vegetables at the range and is adequate for closer range coyotes. I use a suppressed HMR during pest removal jobs and find it better than a 22lr for those purposes.

March 11, 2019, 09:22 AM	#13
Roamin_Wade Junior member Join Date: July 11, 2018 Location: Baytown, TX Posts: 220	How many .17 cal designs are there not counting current experimental's? 1. 17 Mach2 2. 17 HMR 3. 17 WSM 4. 17 Rem 5. 17 Rem Fireball Thats all I can think of but it seems like I'm missing a couple.

March 11, 2019, 10:37 AM	#14
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	Your word choice makes that difficult to answer. There are some extremely well-established wildcats that probably exceed the .17 WSM and .17 HM2 (and .17 Aguila) in popularity, combined. They're beyond experimental, and have well established load data and chamber dimensions - even if not recognized by SAAMI. One cannot, however, buy ammunition for them from WalMart. ...But you can't do that with .416 Rigby, either. What do you mean by "experimental"? Wildcats? - Like .17-223, .17 TCM, etc. Or weird/illogical crap that will never catch on, even if it is moderately interesting? - Like .17 B&D, .17 SPC, .17-284, etc. 'Standardized', 'wildcat', and 'experimental' cartridges are not a subject as black and white as many people want to believe. Everyone knows what the 8mm-06 is. It's even a standardized cartridge. However, the standard version of the cartridge cannot be chambered, nor can factory ammo be made for it, because the rights to the cartridge are tied up in legal disputes. A-Square owned the rights when the company folded. Now, if someone wants to run that "standard" cartridge, a modified (experimental?) version must be used. Nearly everyone in the gun world knows what .458 SOCOM is. Nearly everyone in the gun world probably knows someone that owns a .458 SOCOM. In some parts of the country, one can even buy ammo for it at WalMart. .458 SOCOM is not, however, a SAAMI-approved cartridge. Nor is it standardized. There WAS a standard, which Tromix, Rock River, and a couple other companies still adhere to, for reliability, safety, and licensing reasons. But PTG, Wilson, and a couple other companies tweaked the chamber dimensions, in order to avoid Teppo Jutsu's copyright on the case and chamber design, and created variants that don't always play nicely with each other (or with the original). .458 SOCOM is not just a wildcat, but a wildcat with "wildcats of the wildcat" being the chambers found in the majority of the rifles on the market. Yet, you won't find many people that are going to consider it an "experimental" cartridge at this point. What would be "experimental" in the .17 caliber world...? __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

March 12, 2019, 10:01 PM	#15
J.G. Terry Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2014 Posts: 577	I like to punch paper with the 17HMR. I cannot claim bench rest quality accuracy. My little low end 93R17 mounts and old Intensity scope. The rifle is totally stock. On the low end the 17 HMR is expensive to shoot at paper-you can use up a bunch of cartridges. I would feel comfortable using the rifle for 100-150 yard shots at, for example, a ground hog. I'm poised to take out a Yote in the migrations through my back yard. __________________ Intentionally Antagonizing Another MemberInsults and Ad Hominems

March 18, 2019, 08:25 AM	#16
Roamin_Wade Junior member Join Date: July 11, 2018 Location: Baytown, TX Posts: 220	Yes FrankenMauser, I meant “experimental” to be the same as a “wildcat” round.

March 19, 2019, 12:28 AM	#17
Geezerbiker Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2011 Location: Willamina, OR Posts: 1,908	It's nice that Hornady made a standardized round very similar to the .17 Ackley Hornet. I don't think I would have bothered if I had to form cases for it... Tony

March 20, 2019, 10:36 AM	#18
Picher Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2004 Location: Maine Posts: 3,694	I like the .17 HMR for smaller varmints up to woodchucks, under 130 yards due to our windy conditions, but for larger varmints and up to 300 yards, I prefer one of my three bolt-action .223 Rems with hand-loaded ammo and 53-55 grain varmint bullets. If it's a windy day, I may even choose one of my .243 Win rifles. Last edited by Picher; March 24, 2019 at 06:37 AM.

March 21, 2019, 09:29 PM	#19
Creek Henry Senior Member Join Date: October 23, 2009 Location: Dallas Posts: 514	Does anyone still use the 221 fireball?

March 27, 2019, 07:34 PM	#20
Panfisher Senior Member Join Date: July 30, 2010 Location: Missouri Posts: 1,337	I was looking at a little Savage B Mag in 17 WSM, just a couple days ago. What is wrong with them. I was intrigued by something different.

March 27, 2019, 09:46 PM	#21
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	Difficult for many shooters to cycle, flexible stocks that are known to warp, and just the simple fact that Savage went to cock-on-closing to make more money on the rifles. -It wasn't for any performance advantage, but purely so they could make them cheaper while charging just as much as they would for a cock-on-opening action that requires more machining (and usually a few more parts). "Revolutionary Design" ... 128 years ago. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

March 28, 2019, 11:04 AM	#22
ocharry Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2006 Posts: 685	i have one of the thumb hole target model Bmag 17WSM it will do 1/2" or so at 100,,,BUT,,,i have beded it and did some muzzle work,,,(had a bad crown) and like franken said it is cock on close,,,and the bolt handle is kind of weird i guess,,,but you kinda get used to it while it is a screamer and it is very violent when it connects,,,like if you use it to squirrel hunt ONLY make head shots,,,,you wont have to worry about that part anymore!!!! i got it to use as a go between from 22 and 223,,,does that just fine,,,only 17 i ever had,,,pain to clean,,,but it is fun to use real draw back is that Winchester is the only ammo maker,,,no mater what the box says it all comes from the Winchester rimfire line,,,,so that kinda hurts it,,and sucks,,but the newer ones seem to be doing ok,,,the early ones gave a real Black Eye to the Bmag i like it because it is a rimfire and i can shuck out the brass and not think about it,,,but i really do like the gun and the performance i think if i was going to do it again i would maybe try a barrel from MGM for my TC just my .02 from a owner,,,user ocharry __________________ The felon does not fear the police, and he fears neither judge nor jury. Therefore what he must be taught to fear is his victim." - Lt. Col. Jeff Cooper, USMC

March 30, 2019, 12:47 PM	#23
Panfisher Senior Member Join Date: July 30, 2010 Location: Missouri Posts: 1,337	Thanks, I only looked at the B mag for a few minutes. I noticed the bolt was "different" didn't notice it cock on closing. I did like the flush fit magazine, and was thinking it could fill the gap between a .22 LR and my too nice to toss in rhe back seat Ruger 7722H Hornet, and maybe a little more pop than my old .22 WMR Never owned a .17 anything befoe so partly just because something different too.