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Old December 29, 2015, 07:03 AM   #1
Nathan
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I Think This Needs Said Again....

http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2015/10/9/sheriffs-tips-empty-chambers

Are there people who still carry empty chamber?
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Old December 29, 2015, 07:27 AM   #2
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Can't argue with that, the article is spot on in my opinion and should be for anyone carrying.
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Old December 29, 2015, 11:08 AM   #3
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Close to being a drive by but it is a good article.

To expand on the conversation, folks worry about an ND if they carry chambered. Here's an analysis of the LAPD problems with NDs:

http://www.bluesheepdog.com/2015/12/...ls-are-unsafe/

The main problems were lack of trigger control and mishaps with the WML controls.

So, training, training, training is the key as compared to handicapping yourself.
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Old December 29, 2015, 11:14 AM   #4
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Expecting equipment to overcome a lack of skills is folly.
If there's a danger of an ND with a loaded chamber, the danger still exists after that first round is loaded, too.
For folks who are afraid of their own loaded guns, maybe they should just carry a club.
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Old December 29, 2015, 11:21 AM   #5
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Clubs are not legal in TX. Haha! Couldn't resist.

I agree with the statement.
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Old December 29, 2015, 03:42 PM   #6
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Well, even if the LASD decided to abandon S&W MPs, it would still take another 7 years plus to switch....
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Old December 29, 2015, 05:04 PM   #7
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Quote:
Well, even if the LASD decided to abandon S&W MPs, it would still take another 7 years plus to switch....
The LASD needs to get higher IQ officers, not new guns.

Matter of fact, all of California needs to be replaced with a higher IQ population.
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Old December 29, 2015, 05:19 PM   #8
g.willikers
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But where would all those displaced Californians go?
Might be better to leave them where they are.
More easily avoided if they're all in one place.
Poor Nick C S, having to endure.
I usta' be a Californian.
Must have gotten out in the Nick of time.
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Last edited by g.willikers; December 29, 2015 at 05:25 PM.
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Old December 29, 2015, 05:24 PM   #9
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Not a drive by posting at sll. I hear this around the local "gun huddles" all the time. I try to explain slow and carefully, but it keeps coming back. I had a guy who thought i wss all cowboy carrying with one in the pipe! Like nobody would ever do that!
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Old December 29, 2015, 08:53 PM   #10
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I can't believe I'm the first to say,,,

I can't believe I'm the first to say,,,

"But, the Israelis carry like that."

Sorry, couldn't restrain myself.

I agree that it is folly,,,
But the only person they really endanger is themselves.

If that's how someone wants to carry,,,
I might try to explain things to them,,,
But I won't try to change their mind.

Aarond

.
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Old December 29, 2015, 09:00 PM   #11
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Modern firearm.....no reason not to carry one in the chamber........vintage firearm maybe not a good idea depending on design. Some wheel guns it is still a good idea to have the hammer down on an empty cylinder.

My 1907 Savages and my 1927 I carry with the chamber empty as the safety parts are just to fragile and a worn cocker will allow these guns to run auto.

Ortiges have a grip safety but I still would not trust them.

My Star Super B I carry with one in the pipe but I used a short piece of matchstick under the hammer. Cocked and locked.......bad idea as the lock has disengaged and it is just as easy to have the hammer down on the piece of matchstick and locked. Just draw flip off the lock and thumb the hammer back and the piece of match stick falls clear of the action.
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Old December 29, 2015, 09:03 PM   #12
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Quote:
But where would all those displaced Californians go?
Back where they came from. Many, South of the Border.

Having lived there from 1982-2001, I can say that a lot of native Californians back then had some common sense. But all of a sudden, everyone wanted to live there, and a lot of them were (or allowed themselves to be) affected by idiots.

Happy I got to spend some time there; even happier that I got out when I did.

Never to return.
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Old January 1, 2016, 05:46 PM   #13
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If you don't want to carry cocked-and-locked or worry about striker discharges (I wonder about those who really are worried about the latter), there are hammer-fired DAO options as well as strike-fired ones. I might avoid the Beretta Tomcat (I had a non-Inox that had a frame crack after only a couple of hundred rounds), but there is the Beretta Pico for current production hammer-fired .380 fans, the Colt Pony (no longer in production but still found if you look), and a number of mini nines as well.

As for hammer on an empty chamber in a wheel gun, all you've lost is the last round, not the first; hammer goes back, loaded chamber advances into battery.
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Old January 2, 2016, 03:43 AM   #14
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All NATO troops on bases in Afghanistan carry in condition 3.
They were used to carrying empty weapons before that.
http://sofrep.com/10530/soldiers-in-...their-weapons/
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Old January 3, 2016, 11:30 AM   #15
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I agree with the Sheriff that people should get proper training or consider carrying a DA revolver. They are quite safe for carry with a very simple manual of arms.
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Old January 4, 2016, 09:46 AM   #16
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How can you quickly and without sounding condescending explain the mistake of carrying with an empty chamber? I've tried but feel like an ass for saying anything to friends.
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Old January 4, 2016, 09:57 AM   #17
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Quote:
How can you quickly and without sounding condescending explain the mistake of carrying with an empty chamber?
An empty chamber is a impediment to anyone who does not have both hands empty when the need to fire happens. For instance a police officer with a flashlight, notepad, ticket book, etc. in his left hand. Anything carried in the left hand would have to be dropped and the empty chambered gun then grasped in both hands to charge the chamber (rack the gun). In contrast, the loaded chamber gun can be brought to bear with one hand...even before dropping whatever is in the left (or in the case of a flashlight at night, not dropped at all). Aside from that, certain situations like sitting, in a car or other places, charging the gun using both hands can be problematic.

Furthermore, consider if an entity ( police, etc.), requires conditions three, the officer has to charge the gun every time he needs to draw it. Most of the time when that happens he will not need to fire and then has to return the gun to condition three before holstering it...a time rife with the possibility of an accidental discharge.

Last edited by dahermit; January 4, 2016 at 11:16 AM.
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Old January 4, 2016, 11:25 AM   #18
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dahermit & hartcreek said it.

So I won't add much to that. However, I will say this. My father is very old school and he was held up at gun point while being robbed. He did not have his gun chambered when this happened. It wasn't even on him in this instance. He said he knew he could have drawn and racked one in when the criminal already had their weapon digging into his ribs. Thankfully he got the money and took off. Best possible scenario occurred. He knows better now and never listened to me before that happened.

You need to factor in this: The criminals always have the drop on us. They choose when, how, and where they'll choose to make you their victim. Any extra advantage you can prepare for on your end is always key. Sticking to the topic at hand and not venturing off, the extra seconds it takes to clear a cover garment, draw, rack, grip properly, and present whether it be from retention or arms out is too much time when someone has the drop on you as opposed to just clearing a cover garment, drawing, presenting while shooting isn't worth it for a fear that shouldn't be there with most modern firearms. Especially ones left factory.
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Old January 16, 2016, 06:14 PM   #19
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The manner in which members of the military carry their weapons, be they Israeli or American, has little or no bearing on what is prudent for civilians.
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Old January 16, 2016, 06:19 PM   #20
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part of this mentality was in American police work decades ago for revolvers. a lot of plain clothes/undercover guys lined up an empty chamber in their revolvers so that if a criminal got their gun away from them the first shot would be a "click" and hopefully make them pause. this was to give the UC or narc a chance to get his BUG in action.

thankfully that "procedure" has fallen by the way side.
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Old January 17, 2016, 06:28 AM   #21
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The manner in which members of the military carry their weapons, be they Israeli or American, has little or no bearing on what is prudent for civilians.
Well, it has and it hasn't. Like civillians and unlike the police, the military carry their pistols a lot and handle them daily but have a need to use them extremely rarely and use them only in dire emergency. So, they will take a bit of extra safety when handling the pistol in exchange for a bit slower draw time when and if they actually need the pistol. The difference is about half a second - not short, but not so long that it'd render the gun pointless, and it reduces the chance of accidents. Basically, a tradeoff. I wouldn't dissuade people from it, as long as they know the ins and outs of it.

If you're robbed at gunpoint and have not already drawn, there's no wonder bullet which is going to prevent the bad guy from squeezing the trigger at that point anyway.
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Old January 17, 2016, 09:17 AM   #22
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Ok so just to clarify about the military thing. That status changes quite frequently overseas and often on FOBs or COBs the status is red meaning one in the chamber whether that is what has officially been put out or not. An actual base generally has multiple layers of security on the perimeter and being in red status isn't necessary. In fact it is generally safer. If you have ever been around non American NATO troops you would be surprised how many NDs they have on a regular basis. The response time to changing status is extremely fast and obviously American troops general do it without need of instruction if [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] hits the fan.

That being said, nowadays I carry with one in the chamber because why not? If I trust the firearm I'm carrying (which I damn well better) and know how it functions I have no reason not to have one in the chamber. I don know quite a few people that do not carry with a round in the chamber though. All personal preference.
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Old January 17, 2016, 10:15 AM   #23
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Blue Hats ?? Third world countries often cannot afford to pay their troops but when they work for the UN the UN pays ! Don't expect trained troops .
Many here in the USA spend their money on community relations rather than training cops .Yet one ND can wipe out a years CR work.
TRAINING !!
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Old January 17, 2016, 10:21 AM   #24
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Quote:
Blue Hats ?? Third world countries often cannot afford to pay their troops but when they work for the UN the UN pays ! Don't expect trained troops .
Many here in the USA spend their money on community relations rather than training cops .Yet one ND can wipe out a years CR work.
TRAINING !!
Yes, although it should be noted that UN and NATO are two completely different organizations. NATO troops are trained regular military troops from countries that fall under NATO command and structure. It is still surprising to see how many of those countries do not properly train their troops.

But I digress, don't want to get off topic of the actually subject of the post.
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Old January 28, 2016, 12:56 PM   #25
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Quote:
For folks who are afraid of their own loaded guns, maybe they should just carry a club.
Unless you have already "fixed bayonets", until you load the chamber, all your gun is, is a club!

This argument has been going on, probably for about as long as there have been repeating firearms.

While the rest of the world is usually too polite to say it out loud where we can hear it, it seems clear enough to me that they consider the US obsessed with having a handgun instantly capable of firing as soon as we touch it. And having the fastest possible reload.

Virtually all the European handguns designed before the US civilian market was the dominant factor do NOT have their controls in the most practical places for "draw and fire" or for the most rapid reloads. Some designs would be good for one, but not so good for the other. I can't think of any that was good for both unless it was either designed by an American or intended for the US market, primarily. Even the modern SIG P220 came with a heel type mag release, originally.

I do think it is a fallacy to automatically assume that what a military or police agency does is the correct thing for you, and I KNOW it is an error for you to decide what is the correct thing for ME to do.

I did get a kick out of the "cowboy" comment. Anyone who calls you a "cowboy" because you have one under the hammer, doesn't know much about smart cowboys. The might know something about the dumb ones, the ones who limped, because their horse "shot them" with the round under the hammer, but I doubt it...
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