The .45 "Long" Colt........

[Sport45]

In his case I suppose .45 Short Colt would be easier to spit out than thin rimmed .45AR, or TR45AR as it's more commonly known.

If TR45AR catches on, can I copywrite the name?

[BlueTrain]

Since I've never heard a .45 ACP called a ".45 Colt," I suppose there is still some confusion. But even what we think is the official and standard, commonly used name for some cartridges is not so in other places. Ever heard of a 9mm Browning Short (or Long). And besides, the name on the base of the cartridge may not be the official name for an issue military cartridge, which usually isn't even isn't there.

I gather that if one says ".45 Long Colt," some here will argue against the existance of same while understanding completely with no confusion whatsoever what you're talking about.

[Sport45]

Yeah, we should just call the .45acp by its more descriptive name of 11.45x23mm and the revolver cartridge in question can be called the 11.43x33mm.

[Mike Irwin]

"and the revolver cartridge in question can be called the 11.43x33mm."

Wrong name for the revolver cartridge.

It would be 11.43x33mmR (for rimmed).

[JKilbreth]

Can't shooters simply "agree to disagree"?

After all, the argument about the different names for the 9mm easily applies; some want to call it ".45 colt." Some want to call it ".45 long." some want to call it ".45 long colt." Some want to call it "brass boom boom."

With the exception of that last one, we all know what the person is talking about, and personally, it's not worth losing a working relationship with a fellow shooter just to prove that he/she might be wrong and I might be right. Not that we've had a wholly heated debate on this thread, but some people (myself too, from time to time) are very passionate about this particular cartridge. Let's not let our passion for shooting and investigating history be a weapon we use against each other, but rather a flag of individual thought.

[Jim Watson]

trimmed a .45 "long" colt case to the approximate length of a .45 ACP, loaded lower powder and a 160gr lead bullet

That is commercially available as the Cowboy .45 Special.
With a 160 gr large lube groove bullet, it holds the Lee 1 cc dipper full of black powder which is the minimum required for Black Powder Cartridge Divison in SASS. It works fine in a revolver, of course; and there are gunsmiths who will modify the lifter in your lever action for the short round.
A real gamer gun.
And the brass is properly headstamped to avoid debates like this thread.
http://cowboy45special.com/index.html

[Mike Irwin]

"Can't shooters simply "agree to disagree"?"

When it comes to this particular cartridge, apparently some cannot do that.

If someone dares utter the word "Long" in conjunction with this cartridge they turn into howler monkeys of repressed rage.

Then there are those who get REALLY upset by it.

As I recounted in post 6, I've encountered those individuals before, and have no doubt that I will continue to do so.

But, they're fun to laugh at...

[Bob Wright]

I have lost sight of the purpose of my original post. Whatever that was it was intended to be thought provokin' and in that it seems it was highly successful.

I sure hope nobody took strong offense at whatever it was I said, or maybe didn't say. I am glad to see so many gentlemen who took an interest in my post. I hope you enjoyed sayin' whatever it was that you had to say.

Now peerhaps you have a clearer understanding of why my choice remains the .44 Magnum.

Bob Wright

[Malamute]

But, they're fun to laugh at...

Too many take themselves way too seriously. They are always good for entertainment value, if nothing else.


Good post though Bob, it's been interesting to read.

[rclark]

Bob, here is a new book that I really enjoyed. Has some good info in it on the .45 Colt and other big bore cartridges. Just published : Big Bore Revolvers by Max Prasac ... Oh, my choice is still the .45 Colt .

[Bob Wright]

Well, I do like the .45, but still tend to lean toward the .44 caliber. I'm still so undecided that I keep a stable of both calibers.

My experience is the the .45 Colt has the slight edge with the heavy bullets, 300~350 gr. weights, while the .44 takes the cake for high-steppin' light bullets of 180 gr. weight. Nothing in my neck of the woods merits anything heavier than 230~255 grs. anyway.

Out in the 100~200 yard range, the .44 seems to shine brighter. That's my experience, maybe other folks will disagree.

Bob Wright

[rclark]

Nothing in my neck of the woods merits anything heavier than 230~255 grs. anyway.

Same here... And that is why I think 'really' it comes down to personal preference (.44 vs .45) ... at least for MY purposes. People that handgun hunt extensively here and Africa like Max Prasac, Seyfried and others have their own observations to make which I respect. I also have a stable of each caliber too and enjoy shooting them all... But the .45 Colt has the edge historically... besides making a bigger hole at the other end. So I just enjoy the .45 Colt cartridge just a bit more when out at the range or in the hills. Also knowing I can load it up and down to meet my needs as necessary.... I also like to think of the West (.45 Colt) more than big city streets (.44Mag/.357) .... At least that how it fits into my way of think'n!

[Sport45]

Originally Posted by Mike Irwin

Wrong name for the revolver cartridge.

It would be 11.43x33mmR (for rimmed).

11.43x43R. Dag nab it, how could I have missed that?
Good catch!

[Sport45]

Originally Posted by Jim Watson

That is commercially available as the Cowboy .45 Special.

So my TR45AR moniker is out?

[lobatebaka]

http://www.cowboy45special.com didn''t realize we could get so worked up over name of a cartridge. while looking for a Kirst or R&D converter cylinder for my 1858 Remy I ran across a new 45 short cartridge Adirondack Jack has them made for the cowboy action crowd.
I'm still looking for a Kirst or R&D conversion cylinder in 45 colt or 45ACP for my 1858 Remy old army .44 made by Pietta, any one have one to sell?

[lobatebaka]

things get little hot when we use the improper name for something around here, all in good fun right. Hear's one for you , the 45special from Adirondack Jack.]www.cowboy45special.com[/URL] check it out looks like fun and could save you some $ if used it for practice or plinking

I' m looking for a Kirst or R&D converter cylinder in 45 colt or 45ACP for my 1858 remy old army .44 made by Pietta anyone have one for sale or know where I might get one for a good price. I really want to get this old single action going again.

[FloridaVeteran]

I felt really bad for the folks who invented the .45 Cowboy (Cowboy .45 Special) round, because right at that time Trail Boss powder came out and that was that. Trail Boss did what .45 Cowboy did, but without requiring a new case - made a load where the powder filled the cartridge chamber. For those not into cowboy shooting, this mattered because we draw our handguns from holsters, barrel down, and cannot raise the barrels above target height before shooting. That means earlier compact powders would be laid out along the length of the cartridge case and give inconsistent performance compared to our rifles. At least we could blame our misses on that.

The other advantage of the .45 Cowboy, and Trail Boss, is that Old Farts (like me) who make up a large percentage of CAS shooters, could reload without worry of double-charging, because a double charge would spill out over the top of the case.

What a shame - someone came up with a pretty nifty solution that was preempted by a technically better solution. Kudos to the .45 Cowboy inventors, though, because "They Built That," and their gumption and inventiveness and willingness to risk their capital to build a better product was a great move. I wish it had proved more profitable for them, but their entrepreneurial spirit is the spirit of America.

[rclark]

It's a 'wonder' that the .45 Cowboy Special was even allowed in CAS as it wasn't even a 'cartridge' of the late 1800s..... In the spirit of the game that is.... Trail Boss is one of my favorite powders for light loads. Did quite a bit of testing with it in different calibers and bullets.

[Jim Watson]

The Cowboy Special still has the advantage of holding just the minimum 1cc charge for use in Black Powder Cartridge. What a coinkydinky.

[BlueTrain]

I've never heard of Trail Boss powder (Don't get around much anymore). Is it suitable for other (revolver) cartridges? And is it smokeless? I realize Bullseye is good for light loads but not so good when doubled up.

[Mike Irwin]

Trail Boss is a relatively new powder, within the last 10 years.

It's the closest thing we have now to a smokeless bulk replacement powder for blackpowder. It's not a 1 for 1 replacement, but it is close.

It works for just about any cartridge, but is most at home in the large blackpowder era cartridges like the .44-40, .45 Long Colt, and .44 Special.

In smaller cartridges it will work, but the penalty is reduced velocity over what you would get out of smokeless.

The benefits are a powder that will fill the case for most of the older cartridges while providing near blackpowder velocity.

It provides exceptional ballistic uniformity, and meters very, very well even though it doesn't look as if it should.

Because of its burning characteristics, it is also very much at home in rifle cartridges.

I pretty much won't use anything else in my .44 Special, and I've used it quite a bit in my .32-20, but I'm not as happy with it in that application.

The biggest concern that one has to watch for when using it is not to compress the powder. If you start breaking the donuts (it's donut shaped) the burn rate gets VERY squirrley.

[rclark]

Is it suitable for other (revolver) cartridges? And is it smokeless?

Yes and Yes. If you look in my link to my tests above ... I've tested it in .45 Colt, .44Mag, .44Spec, .357, and .38 .

The biggest concern that one has to watch for when using it is not to compress the powder.

Turns out that is a bit of a myth. However pressures do rise on compression of course. And it appears you are 'always' safe if you don't compress it.... But, in a .44Mag the max load (9.6g Via Hornady manual) is very much a compressed load (see my tests) .

[STW]

My default is ".45 Colt"
The cowboys I grew up watching on TV never referred to their Long Colt .45 pistol. (And, yes, I do know that some folks reserve pistol for a semi-auto.)

That being said. I'm perfectly willing to whatever terminology helps the person I'm talking with understand what I/we are talking about. Isn't that the whole point of language?

I can be pedantic about colt/long colt, magazine/clip, semi-auto/automatic all I want but a longer, drawn out conversation that's more semantics then information helps no one and doesn't help me get on to something more important any faster.

So, I'll use correct terminology to start but wrong terminology to finish if that is what is needed to be understood. I suspect most of us are that way and neighbors learn to avoid those of us who are not.

[FloridaVeteran]

RClark - funny you mentioned the oddity of .45 Cowboy Special being allowed. Seems it came out right about the time reloading supplies got scarce and expensive - around the last election - but my memory might be wrong on that.

Anyway, SASS can be very picky whey they want to be. They wouldn't let me shoot matches with my Model 93-97 that Coyote Cap came out with several years ago. Seems there was a claimed advantage relative to the slightly larger ejection port, which is really a bunch of hooey.

And even if "B" Cowboy means outfits worn by cowboys and the few cowgirls of the 1950s TV shows, to my knowledge none of them ever wore pink.

[BlueTrain]

To my knowledge, they all stuck to black and white, or at least it looked like that on our little TV. However, the B Western cowboys may not have even had a Colt .45 revolver. The one I believe John Wayne used in the 1930s and 1940s was a .38-40. But "Colt .45" does sound better.