Trouble with 9mm load

Gitsum · January 25, 2012, 06:19 PM

Im trying to load up a round for this 9mm STI Trojan. I shoot A CZ 9 also but it has to have an OAL of a VERY short 1.048. I tried this in the STI and it didnt like it accuracy wise but would feed ok. The book (Lyman 49th) says OAL should be 1.110. I can go out as far as 1.185 just before touching the lands. This looks much too long but Isnt that best for a cast bullet? (see 1st pic) Or should I just load the 1.110 that looks good? (see 2nd pic) Or try powder adjustments, or all of the above? Am I doing too much reading and not enough loading?

Sorry, it is a 356-120-tc cast, over 3.4gn Unique, Federal #100 small pistol primer

noylj · January 25, 2012, 07:01 PM

Do they both fit your magazine? Do they feed and chamber easily? If so, then that is a perfectly good COL.
If you want it to "look good," then seat the bullet deep enough to hide the grease groove. Obivously, if you are going to fill the grease groove with lube, it might be best to have the grease inside the case so it doesn't pick up lint...
I hope that if you load to less than the minimum COL shown in whatever manual you are looking at, that you reduce the max charge weight and work up the load carefully.
For best accuracy, in general, with lead bullets, you want to minimize head space--which puts the bullet at or just short of the lede/rifling.
You sure STI didn't use a 9x21 reamer on your chamber?

10 acre woods · January 25, 2012, 07:04 PM

I would load to the second picture length and add a crimp. I am new too but it just looks like the right thing to do. Maybe some one can second me on this.

Gitsum · January 25, 2012, 07:15 PM

Noylj, STI has 9x19 stamped right on the barrel. I also started at the bottom for the CZ with the short OAL and Im thinking of loading 3 powder charges for the STI. 3.5, 4.1, and 4.4. I cant find data for the bullet though. I did however find it for the same weight but RN. min is 4.0 and max is 5.0.

armoredman · January 25, 2012, 07:26 PM

Yep, I have difficulties with cast truncated cone in my CZ pistols, but with regular round nose, no issues.
Drop it until the lube groove is outa sight then finish it. Don't crimp too hard.

jbrown13 · January 25, 2012, 09:37 PM

STI throats are on the long side because a lot of buyers shoot 9mm to major power factor and load them on the long side.

That being said I have tested my 9mm Trojan out of my Ransom Rest, and the most accurate lead bullet load is a 125 grain (actually weighs in at 122 grains) Missouri Bullet SWC over 5.0 to 5.1 grains of AA #5 @ 1.100" OAL. It shoots groups in the 0.8" to 1.5" range @ 25 yards all day long. I did not try Unique. You might want to give AA #5 a try with your TC bullet.

That bullet in your picture doesn't look like it has any lube in the lube groove shown in the picture. Do the bullets have lube in another groove that can't be seen? As far as I know lead bullets will require lube to perform adequately.

noylj · January 25, 2012, 09:51 PM

My "snarky" comment had to do with the overly long chambering. If someone did use a 9x21 reamer by mistake, guess what? They would STILL label it 9x19.

SPECIAL NOTE ON CARTRIDGE OVERALL LENGTH “COL”
It is important to note that the SAAMI “COL” values are for the firearms and ammunition manufacturers industry and must be seen as a guideline only.
The individual reloader is free to adjust this dimension to suit their particular firearm-component-weapon combination.
This parameter is determined by various dimensions such as 1) magazine length (space),
2) freebore-lead dimensions of the barrel,
3) ogive or profile of the projectile and
4) position of cannelure or crimp groove.
• Always begin loading at the minimum "Start Load".
• Watch for signs of excessive pressure.
• Increase in 2% increments towards the Maximum Load.
• Never exceed the Maximum Load.

jepp2 · January 25, 2012, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Or should I just load the 1.110 that looks good?

Since the Lyman Manual had the 1.110" OAL for the load you selected, I would start with that. Just make sure you keep in mind the 9mm can be very sensitive to pressure changes with different seating depth. Make changes in OAL in small increments and adjust your powder loading as necessary.

My experience is that with the same powder loading and an OAL of 1.185 wouldn't cycle the slide unless I change the recoil spring. YMMV

chris in va · January 26, 2012, 05:10 AM

I think OAL is less of a concern than your bullet size. 356 is undersized for 9mm using cast. Try 358, especially with the CZ.

I use a Lee 125 RF with mine and my tumbling/inaccuracy issues went away once I pushed them through a Lee 358 sizing die. They drop at 362, so works well.

Gitsum · January 26, 2012, 08:19 AM

Thanks guys. JBrown, You are correct, there is no lube un the bullet in the pic as it is only a dummy round that I was using to check for oal, chambering, cycling, etc.

I went ahead and loaded up the 3 sets of powder charges at 1.110 OAL and will try them out. Next on my list will be the AA#5. I am hoping not to have to resize but I guess I wil try that after the powder change if necessary. Sound like a good plan?

Oh yeah, I brought both barrels to work with me today to "SLUG" them. I will post those results in a while

Gitsum · January 26, 2012, 12:22 PM

Slugged both barrels.

CZ is at .355
STI is at .354-.355

Cast bullet is .358. So I think Im ok with proper diameter fit and will just continue to work on the OAL and powder load, yes?

January 25, 2012, 07:15 PM	#4
Gitsum Senior Member Join Date: September 23, 2011 Location: Delawhere? Posts: 146	Noylj, STI has 9x19 stamped right on the barrel. I also started at the bottom for the CZ with the short OAL and Im thinking of loading 3 powder charges for the STI. 3.5, 4.1, and 4.4. I cant find data for the bullet though. I did however find it for the same weight but RN. min is 4.0 and max is 5.0. __________________ Want Some?... GITSUM!

January 25, 2012, 09:37 PM	#6
jbrown13 Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2009 Location: Perry, GA Posts: 105	STI throats are on the long side because a lot of buyers shoot 9mm to major power factor and load them on the long side. That being said I have tested my 9mm Trojan out of my Ransom Rest, and the most accurate lead bullet load is a 125 grain (actually weighs in at 122 grains) Missouri Bullet SWC over 5.0 to 5.1 grains of AA #5 @ 1.100" OAL. It shoots groups in the 0.8" to 1.5" range @ 25 yards all day long. I did not try Unique. You might want to give AA #5 a try with your TC bullet. That bullet in your picture doesn't look like it has any lube in the lube groove shown in the picture. Do the bullets have lube in another groove that can't be seen? As far as I know lead bullets will require lube to perform adequately. Last edited by jbrown13; January 25, 2012 at 09:46 PM.

January 26, 2012, 12:22 PM	#11
Gitsum Senior Member Join Date: September 23, 2011 Location: Delawhere? Posts: 146	Slugged both barrels. CZ is at .355 STI is at .354-.355 Cast bullet is .358. So I think Im ok with proper diameter fit and will just continue to work on the OAL and powder load, yes? __________________ Want Some?... GITSUM! Last edited by Gitsum; January 27, 2012 at 11:37 AM.

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January 25, 2012, 07:01 PM	#2
noylj Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2007 Location: Between CA and NM Posts: 858	Do they both fit your magazine? Do they feed and chamber easily? If so, then that is a perfectly good COL. If you want it to "look good," then seat the bullet deep enough to hide the grease groove. Obivously, if you are going to fill the grease groove with lube, it might be best to have the grease inside the case so it doesn't pick up lint... I hope that if you load to less than the minimum COL shown in whatever manual you are looking at, that you reduce the max charge weight and work up the load carefully. For best accuracy, in general, with lead bullets, you want to minimize head space--which puts the bullet at or just short of the lede/rifling. You sure STI didn't use a 9x21 reamer on your chamber?

January 25, 2012, 07:04 PM	#3
10 acre woods Member Join Date: December 1, 2011 Location: the commie state of il Posts: 73	I would load to the second picture length and add a crimp. I am new too but it just looks like the right thing to do. Maybe some one can second me on this.

January 25, 2012, 07:26 PM	#5
armoredman Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,297	Yep, I have difficulties with cast truncated cone in my CZ pistols, but with regular round nose, no issues. Drop it until the lube groove is outa sight then finish it. Don't crimp too hard.

January 25, 2012, 09:51 PM	#7
noylj Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2007 Location: Between CA and NM Posts: 858	My "snarky" comment had to do with the overly long chambering. If someone did use a 9x21 reamer by mistake, guess what? They would STILL label it 9x19. SPECIAL NOTE ON CARTRIDGE OVERALL LENGTH “COL” It is important to note that the SAAMI “COL” values are for the firearms and ammunition manufacturers industry and must be seen as a guideline only. The individual reloader is free to adjust this dimension to suit their particular firearm-component-weapon combination. This parameter is determined by various dimensions such as 1) magazine length (space), 2) freebore-lead dimensions of the barrel, 3) ogive or profile of the projectile and 4) position of cannelure or crimp groove. • Always begin loading at the minimum "Start Load". • Watch for signs of excessive pressure. • Increase in 2% increments towards the Maximum Load. • Never exceed the Maximum Load.

January 26, 2012, 05:10 AM	#9
chris in va Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2004 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 13,806	I think OAL is less of a concern than your bullet size. 356 is undersized for 9mm using cast. Try 358, especially with the CZ. I use a Lee 125 RF with mine and my tumbling/inaccuracy issues went away once I pushed them through a Lee 358 sizing die. They drop at 362, so works well.

January 26, 2012, 08:19 AM	#10
Gitsum Senior Member Join Date: September 23, 2011 Location: Delawhere? Posts: 146	Thanks guys. JBrown, You are correct, there is no lube un the bullet in the pic as it is only a dummy round that I was using to check for oal, chambering, cycling, etc. I went ahead and loaded up the 3 sets of powder charges at 1.110 OAL and will try them out. Next on my list will be the AA#5. I am hoping not to have to resize but I guess I wil try that after the powder change if necessary. Sound like a good plan? Oh yeah, I brought both barrels to work with me today to "SLUG" them. I will post those results in a while __________________ Want Some?... GITSUM!