Question about shooting round balls.

Hdonly · July 21, 2016, 03:10 PM

I have been shooting my recently finished Bobcat .50 conversion. Playing with different thickness in patches, I have seen a big difference in accuracy. My question I guess is what really grips the rifling- the patch or the lead? Reason that I ask is that I have found a place that sells shot that I know is hardened. They list .490 balls along with their buckshot. Was wondering about shooting hardened patched .490 balls. They are a little cheaper and just curious if anyone has tried this.

Hawg · July 21, 2016, 03:17 PM

The patch does but hardened lead as used in shot doesn't shrink as much as pure lead does when it cools so you'll have to use thinner patches with it.

NoSecondBest · July 21, 2016, 03:56 PM

I think if you call them and ask, the .490" balls won't be the same alloy as the buckshot they're selling. Any time you add something to round balls to make them harder, they become nearly impossible to get down the barrel and engage the rifling. The patch serves only as a seal and nothing else. The rifling in the barrel cuts into the round ball even with the patch in the middle. That can easily be seen by recovering a ball or pulling one out of the barrel after it's been driven down.

Hawg · July 21, 2016, 05:17 PM

Quote:

The patch serves only as a seal and nothing else. The rifling in the barrel cuts into the round ball even with the patch in the middle. That can easily be seen by recovering a ball or pulling one out of the barrel after it's been driven down.

If you're getting rifling engraved on the ball you're having to drive it all the way down and don't even need a patch. It should be tight enough to need a short starter to get it started but then the ramrod should easily push it down the bore. The patch serves as a seal true enough but it also serves to grip the rifling and give the ball spin. The ball doesn't need to be so big as to have rifling engraved on it through a patch.

Hdonly · July 21, 2016, 06:08 PM

Well, I took one of my soft lead .490 round balls and rolled it in and out of the barrel. It went all the way down and easily back out. So I am thinking that the .490 buckshot balls should shoot well with the correct patch. I checked the website and their .490 balls are hardened. Since the patch does the work of gripping the riflleing, they should work. Worth a try anyway.

Pahoo · July 21, 2016, 07:45 PM

Quote:

The patch serves only as a seal and nothing else. The rifling in the barrel cuts into the round ball even with the patch in the middle.

I know what you have written but not sure it's entirely what you meant to say....

Read Hawg's replies and there should be no lead contact between the ball and the rifling. Better yet, "read your patches" as they are a good indicator of what is going on. Now as for you hard-cast ball,
I see they still make "Poly-Patches". basically it's a Sabot that accepts the round contour of the ball. ......

Read the patch and;
Be Safe !!!

NoSecondBest · July 21, 2016, 08:01 PM

I don't disagree with Hawg. My point is that the patch is a "barrier" between the rifling and the ball. The rifling will engage the ball, but the patch is still a barrier between the two. Sort of like using a condom

Pahoo · July 21, 2016, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Sort of like using a condom

There might be a better example out there but "that," I understand !!! ...

Use them and;
Be Safe !!!

Rookie21 · July 22, 2016, 01:03 PM

I'd like to weigh in with my experience for what it's worth. I was new to muzzleloading and shooting a lot being part of the competing side of things. Ballistic product's prices and quantities were appealing for the amount I needed. I was not casting my own round ball as I do now. They were advertised as shot for shotguns and hardened lead. I was buying .350, .360, and .440. The .350 and .440 went into a single shot caplock and flint lock (36 and 45 cal respectively) but the .360 was going into a customized Remington rebarreled with a 9mm barrel. The chambers were welded up and bore line drilled. The revolver shot great at 25 yards but not so good at 50. The single shots (cap and flint) shot well at either distance.

My guess with the revolver is that the lead was too hard to swell and fill the rifling correctly. In the single shots I loaded with a .018" soapy water lubed patch. Load resistance was minimal but snug enough. After I changed to casting my own to again try and save more on cost of Ammo and shipping I saw an increase in accuracy at 50 yards with the revolver. Results were slightly better with the single shots but not enough to tell definitively off hand unsupported.

Because of this say stick with soft lead. But as always if you're getting good results no matter what you're using then stick with it.

**4V50 Gary** · July 22, 2016, 05:31 PM

I can see where a hardened ball would be harder to ram down the barrel.

BTW, I never thought of the patch as a condom. During the Napoleonic Era the British riflemen were issued greased-leather covered balls. In one of my books there is a picture of the. Rodents were fond of eating that greased leather too.

Hawg · July 22, 2016, 08:27 PM

Quote:

I can see where a hardened ball would be harder to ram down the barrel.

It wouldn't be if it was the right size with the right patch. There was a guy on one of the forums about ten years or so ago that had some success with glass marbles. The weight difference was the detriment.

rodwhaincamo · July 23, 2016, 10:27 PM

On a traditional forum a member used brass balls as well.

Old Stony · July 24, 2016, 04:49 AM

I've known guys that tried harder lead, and had nothing but problems. I would think if you were using the proper sized balls, there would be a good chance of cutting the patch when starting the ball at the muzzle.
The pressure behind the ball when firing is supposed to compress the ball slightly which puts pressure outward towards to rifling and makes the patch and ball press into the rifling. This wouldn't work as well with hard lead, even if you could get it all beat down the bore with a proper size.
Soft lead has been doing it's job properly for a lot of years.....not much can be done to improve on that.

Hawg · July 24, 2016, 10:01 AM

When you start a ball at the muzzle the initial tightness is compressing the patch. With the right ball/patch combo it shouldn't make any difference how hard the ball is.

Pahoo · July 24, 2016, 11:26 AM

Quote:

So I am thinking that the .490 buckshot balls should shoot well with the correct patch. I checked the website and their .490 balls are hardened. Since the patch does the work of gripping the riflleing, they should work. Worth a try anyway.

That is up to you and do I understand you to say that you bought them or thinking about buying them? As mentioned it will work when you find the right patch/ball combination. However, Can't say how well as you will have to work this out and frankly, "may" not be what you expect. It's going to take some work and as long as "you" get good performance, you're good. ....

I often state and feel, that a pure lead round ball, is very forgiving. Change any number of factors and things get less forgiving. I may never experiment with then as I'm currently trying to refine my shot-string with .45 minnies/conicals. .....

Good luck and;
Be Safe !!!

Hawg · July 24, 2016, 01:33 PM

Just for the record I use a .530 pure lead ball(or real close to pure)with an .018 pillow ticking patch.

Hdonly · July 24, 2016, 02:37 PM

I haven't bought any yet. Just in the thinking stage. I will try to get a small number of them and see what happens. If it doesn't work, I won't be out much. I thank you all for the replies. Lots of good information to think about.

July 21, 2016, 03:10 PM	#1
Hdonly Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2013 Posts: 340	Question about shooting round balls. I have been shooting my recently finished Bobcat .50 conversion. Playing with different thickness in patches, I have seen a big difference in accuracy. My question I guess is what really grips the rifling- the patch or the lead? Reason that I ask is that I have found a place that sells shot that I know is hardened. They list .490 balls along with their buckshot. Was wondering about shooting hardened patched .490 balls. They are a little cheaper and just curious if anyone has tried this.

July 22, 2016, 05:31 PM	#10
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,829	I can see where a hardened ball would be harder to ram down the barrel. BTW, I never thought of the patch as a condom. During the Napoleonic Era the British riflemen were issued greased-leather covered balls. In one of my books there is a picture of the. Rodents were fond of eating that greased leather too. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

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July 21, 2016, 03:17 PM	#2
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	The patch does but hardened lead as used in shot doesn't shrink as much as pure lead does when it cools so you'll have to use thinner patches with it.

July 21, 2016, 03:56 PM	#3
NoSecondBest Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2009 Location: Western New York Posts: 2,736	I think if you call them and ask, the .490" balls won't be the same alloy as the buckshot they're selling. Any time you add something to round balls to make them harder, they become nearly impossible to get down the barrel and engage the rifling. The patch serves only as a seal and nothing else. The rifling in the barrel cuts into the round ball even with the patch in the middle. That can easily be seen by recovering a ball or pulling one out of the barrel after it's been driven down.

July 21, 2016, 06:08 PM	#5
Hdonly Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2013 Posts: 340	Well, I took one of my soft lead .490 round balls and rolled it in and out of the barrel. It went all the way down and easily back out. So I am thinking that the .490 buckshot balls should shoot well with the correct patch. I checked the website and their .490 balls are hardened. Since the patch does the work of gripping the riflleing, they should work. Worth a try anyway.

July 21, 2016, 08:01 PM	#7
NoSecondBest Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2009 Location: Western New York Posts: 2,736	I don't disagree with Hawg. My point is that the patch is a "barrier" between the rifling and the ball. The rifling will engage the ball, but the patch is still a barrier between the two. Sort of like using a condom

July 22, 2016, 01:03 PM	#9
Rookie21 Senior Member Join Date: August 15, 2009 Posts: 212	I'd like to weigh in with my experience for what it's worth. I was new to muzzleloading and shooting a lot being part of the competing side of things. Ballistic product's prices and quantities were appealing for the amount I needed. I was not casting my own round ball as I do now. They were advertised as shot for shotguns and hardened lead. I was buying .350, .360, and .440. The .350 and .440 went into a single shot caplock and flint lock (36 and 45 cal respectively) but the .360 was going into a customized Remington rebarreled with a 9mm barrel. The chambers were welded up and bore line drilled. The revolver shot great at 25 yards but not so good at 50. The single shots (cap and flint) shot well at either distance. My guess with the revolver is that the lead was too hard to swell and fill the rifling correctly. In the single shots I loaded with a .018" soapy water lubed patch. Load resistance was minimal but snug enough. After I changed to casting my own to again try and save more on cost of Ammo and shipping I saw an increase in accuracy at 50 yards with the revolver. Results were slightly better with the single shots but not enough to tell definitively off hand unsupported. Because of this say stick with soft lead. But as always if you're getting good results no matter what you're using then stick with it.

July 23, 2016, 10:27 PM	#12
rodwhaincamo Senior Member Join Date: July 7, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 1,246	On a traditional forum a member used brass balls as well.

July 24, 2016, 04:49 AM	#13
Old Stony Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2013 Location: East Texas Posts: 1,705	I've known guys that tried harder lead, and had nothing but problems. I would think if you were using the proper sized balls, there would be a good chance of cutting the patch when starting the ball at the muzzle. The pressure behind the ball when firing is supposed to compress the ball slightly which puts pressure outward towards to rifling and makes the patch and ball press into the rifling. This wouldn't work as well with hard lead, even if you could get it all beat down the bore with a proper size. Soft lead has been doing it's job properly for a lot of years.....not much can be done to improve on that.

July 24, 2016, 10:01 AM	#14
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	When you start a ball at the muzzle the initial tightness is compressing the patch. With the right ball/patch combo it shouldn't make any difference how hard the ball is.

July 24, 2016, 01:33 PM	#16
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	Just for the record I use a .530 pure lead ball(or real close to pure)with an .018 pillow ticking patch.

July 24, 2016, 02:37 PM	#17
Hdonly Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2013 Posts: 340	I haven't bought any yet. Just in the thinking stage. I will try to get a small number of them and see what happens. If it doesn't work, I won't be out much. I thank you all for the replies. Lots of good information to think about.