Dishonorable Discharge / shooting range

Jim567 · February 10, 2019, 10:38 AM

May a person with a dishonorable discharge from the service - go to a shooting range?
May they fire someone else’s weapon there?
I am assuming no.

LineStretcher · February 10, 2019, 10:51 AM

If you know a person cannot own or posses a gun you cannot facilitate allowing them to own or posses a gun anywhere, anytime. That would be a Felony for the both of you. If you didn't know, that might be a different story but by posting this question we know you do know.

In fact, having that person anywhere near a firearm could cause constructive possession and you could be charged. Yes that means your home too!

kmw1954 · February 10, 2019, 11:02 AM

Why would a Dishonorable Discharge preclude someone from owning guns? There are many reasons for a Dishonorable Discharge that do not include Felonies.

BillM · February 10, 2019, 11:03 AM

The dishonorable discharge is based on a general court-martial conviction. This means the conviction is a felony, regardless of what the underlying offense may have been. The convicted felon is banned from possessing a firearm including Title II Firearms (a Silencer, SBR, SBS, AOW, or Machine Gun).

thallub · February 10, 2019, 11:28 AM

The US military is required to report dishonorable discharges to NICS. The USAF forgot to do that in the case of the Texas church shooter.

https://bearingarms.com/tom-k/2018/0...scharges-nics/

Dfariswheel · February 10, 2019, 09:09 PM

A dishonorable discharge can only be handed out after a finding of a court martial.
It's a military punishment for a crime committed while in the service.
It's equivalent to a civilian court finding you guilty of a felony crime.

A Dishonorable Discharge is what it is. It doesn't matter why you were court martialed and given a DD, it's still a felony conviction.
A DD IS a felony conviction and there's no such thing as a non-felony DD.

Like a civilian felony conviction you loose some Civil Rights, including the right to even touch a firearm.

For a person with a DD on his record to be in ANY contact with a firearm is the same as Guido the convicted Mafia boss being in contact with a firearm.
It's another felony crime.

LineStretcher · February 10, 2019, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Why would a Dishonorable Discharge preclude someone from owning guns? There are many reasons for a Dishonorable Discharge that do not include Felonies.

A DD is the equivalent of the Felony even if the discharge reason did not convert to a civilian Felony. Its often difficult to understand how that can be but it is and it's one of the reasons that DD's are not the best way to get out of the service just because you don't like being there. It tends to keep the troops in line.

One of the questions on the 4473 that you fill out when buying a gun asks if you were ever DD. If you say yes, the purchase stops right there. If you say no and NICS reports that you were you could be arrested and charged with a felony.

**Aguila Blanca** · February 10, 2019, 10:20 PM

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/44...53009/download

Questions 11.b, 11.c, and 11.g

And the instructions for 11.b and 11.c

kmw1954 · February 10, 2019, 10:54 PM

OK.

Coming from a military family where my father left as a Major, 3 brothers and a sister plus myself all being veterans one would think I'd remember that. Must not been paying attention to that detail.

TrueBlue711 · February 11, 2019, 11:13 AM

For purchasing a gun, no. As mentioned already by others, that's a question(s) on the 4473. But to just shoot at a range? It would depend on the range. Every range I've been to, I've never been asked that question to just shoot there. I never rent guns since I have so many of my own, so I'm not sure how in depth the check is.

Doyle · February 11, 2019, 11:32 AM

Quote:

But to just shoot at a range? It would depend on the range.

The fact that the range doesn't check doesn't mean that it is legal. As mentioned in earlier posts, possession (as in holding) a firearm is illegal if a person has a DD.

**Aguila Blanca** · February 11, 2019, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrueBlue711

For purchasing a gun, no. As mentioned already by others, that's a question(s) on the 4473. But to just shoot at a range? It would depend on the range. Every range I've been to, I've never been asked that question to just shoot there. I never rent guns since I have so many of my own, so I'm not sure how in depth the check is.

Legality does not depend on the range. The question wasn't "Can they," the question was "May they?" As Doyle already commented, just because the range may not ask the question doesn't make it legal. People "can" do all sorts of things that aren't legal.

**44 AMP** · February 11, 2019, 12:56 PM

I would add, just FYI, that a Court Martial conviction is a FEDERAL felony conviction. That might make a difference for some things in life, but not for firearms possession.

T. O'Heir · February 11, 2019, 02:02 PM

"...dishonorable discharge is based on a general court-martial conviction..." Gross insubordination or repeatedly being AWOL, et al are not felonies, but are Courts Marital offences.
https://courtmartial.com/is-a-court-...ered-a-felony/
This guy explains the whole thing really well. Keep you busy for hours.
https://www.usmilitarylawyer.com/typ...rt-martial.asp

Pahoo · February 11, 2019, 02:09 PM

Quote:

May a person with a dishonorable discharge from the service - go to a shooting range? May they fire someone else’s weapon there?
I am assuming no.

In the way you pose the question, do not assume NO. A private range might have this restriction but you'd have to check with them. If you are asking this question for yourself, my compliments. If you are asking for someone else, more info is needed and refer to your state's laws. …..

Be Safe !!!!

Jim567 · February 11, 2019, 02:32 PM

I am asking for myself - as - I would be the man taking a friend.with a DD.
This man has been a great neighbor and family man.
He was a Navy Corpsman, what he got in trouble for would probably be a misdemeanor on the outside.
He has asked me to take him shooting.
My private club will ask for a drivers licence.
I cannot risk losing my rights as much as I would like to take him.
My nephew was a Navy Corpsman, he had just gotten back from Afghanistan.
He took a breath of laughing gas at the base hospital and was booted out for that.
My friend and neighbors offense was similar.
Good lord in my time in the Army mid 70s lol!!!
Both these guys were happy in service, decorated and proud to serve.

Pahoo · February 11, 2019, 02:52 PM

Quote:

I am asking for myself - as - I would be the man taking a friend.with a DD

I think it's important for us to stay focused on the stated question/problem and not get off on tangent. I hate to sound like a politician but eventually this one comes down to a simple yes and no. ….

I too am a Navy Vet and know full well that the UCMJ has little in common the our civil law. ….

Be Safe !!!

**Aguila Blanca** · February 11, 2019, 03:09 PM

For those who didn't take the time to read the 4473, the instructions for questions 11.b - 12 include the following:

Quote:

Question 11.b. - 12. Generally, 18 U.S.C. 922(g) prohibits the shipment, transportation, receipt, or possession in or affecting interstate commerce of a firearm by one who: has been convicted of a felony in any Federal, State or local court, or any other crime, punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year (this does not include State misdemeanors punishable by imprisonment of two years or less); is a fugitive from justice; is an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, or narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance; has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to a mental institution; has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions; is subject to certain restraining orders; convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence under Federal, State or Tribal law; ...

The instructions then include this paragraph:

Quote:

A member of the Armed Forces must answer "yes" to 11.b. or 11.c. if charged with an offense that was either referred to a General Court Martial, or at which the member was convicted. Discharged "under dishonorable conditions" means separation from the Armed Forces resulting from a dishonorable discharge or dismissal adjudged by a General Court-Martial. That term does not include any other discharge or separation from the Armed Forces.

"Must answer 'yes'." As you probably know, a "yes" answer to any question other than 11.a results in a denial. If you would be denied a purchase based on the answers to those questions, it should be obvious that you're a prohibited person and cannot possess firearms.

**Aguila Blanca** · February 11, 2019, 03:17 PM

Then we can go right to the law -- 18 U.S.C. 922(g)

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922

Quote:

(g) It shall be unlawful for any person—
(1) who has been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
(2) who is a fugitive from justice;
(3) who is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances Act (21 U.S.C. 802));
(4) who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or who has been committed to a mental institution;
(5) who, being an alien—

(A) is illegally or unlawfully in the United States; or
(B) except as provided in subsection (y)(2), has been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa (as that term is defined in section 101(a)(26) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(26)));

(6) who has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions;
(7) who, having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced his citizenship;
(8) who is subject to a court order that—

(A) was issued after a hearing of which such person received actual notice, and at which such person had an opportunity to participate;
(B) restrains such person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner of such person or child of such intimate partner or person, or engaging in other conduct that would place an intimate partner in reasonable fear of bodily injury to the partner or child; and
(C)
(i) includes a finding that such person represents a credible threat to the physical safety of such intimate partner or child; or
(ii) by its terms explicitly prohibits the use, attempted use, or threatened use of physical force against such intimate partner or child that would reasonably be expected to cause bodily injury; or

(9) who has been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence,
to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce, or possess in or affecting commerce, any firearm or ammunition; or to receive any firearm or ammunition which has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.

Jim, your neighbor might wish to investigate having his DD upgraded.

https://www.swords-to-plowshares.org...our-discharge/

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclope...e-upgrade.html

There's no guarantee that he can get it upgraded, but he could at least look into it.

tlm225 · February 11, 2019, 03:30 PM

Jim, providing your friend access to a firearm will be a violation of federal law, thus placing you in legal jeopardy. Check your state law as well. In my state it is also a felony to furnish a firearm to a prohibited person.

Jim567 · February 11, 2019, 03:49 PM

Thanks so much for all the input!
I am going to ask him if he has considered upgrading his discharge.

Roamin_Wade · February 11, 2019, 05:08 PM

If I meet a person that says they used to be in the military I may never ask if he had a DD. That being said, if I one day invite him to go shooting with me the range doesn’t know either. I have a hard time agreeing that I would be guilty of a felony. Even if I know he had a DD, without ever having been in the service I wouldn’t know that he is precluded from shooting a firearm. It is totally plausible that a person like me not know that a person is a felon for having a DD. Aren’t most of them from punching a superior officer? A fist fight can make a person unable to own guns for life?

**44 AMP** · February 11, 2019, 05:53 PM

Quote:

It is totally plausible that a person like me not know that a person is a felon for having a DD.

Very plausible, and your only defense is ignorance, and (right or wrong) ignorance of the law is no excuse.

Quote:

Aren’t most of them from punching a superior officer? A fist fight can make a person unable to own guns for life?

A fist fight? Under the right circumstances, abso-frackin-lutely!!!

Felony assault will do it, and so will MISDEMEANOR Domestic Violence. (Lautenberg act). Hit, or even PUSH your domestic partner, get a convicted, no guns for life. And I don't think there is any restoration process for that, though I hope I'm wrong.

Doyle · February 11, 2019, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Aren’t most of them from punching a superior officer?

I would say that striking a superior is NOT the primary cause of DD. In fact, unless it was particularly blatant and/or the offender is a dirtbag that would likely be settled by NJP (Non Judicial Punishment). No, there are a whole lot more things likely to get a person dishonorably discharged. Including domestic abuse, theft, dealing drugs, etc.

**Aguila Blanca** · February 11, 2019, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roamin Wade

If I meet a person that says they used to be in the military I may never ask if he had a DD. That being said, if I one day invite him to go shooting with me the range doesn’t know either. I have a hard time agreeing that I would be guilty of a felony. Even if I know he had a DD, without ever having been in the service I wouldn’t know that he is precluded from shooting a firearm. It is totally plausible that a person like me not know that a person is a felon for having a DD.

As 44_AMP already noted, it's a crime for you to provide a firearm to a prohibited person whether you know ("or should have known") that he/she is prohibited or not. It doesn't matter whether or not you agree -- that's what the law says. As a Zen teacher I once met liked to say, "What is ... is. It is your resistance to what is that causes your unhappiness." You might get off by explaining that you had no idea [___] was dishonorably discharged ... or you might not. It's unlikely that [___] would get off.

It's perhaps also worth mentioning that, although the original post in this discussion asked about a dishonorable discharge (DD), that's not the only type of discharge that can make someone a prohibited person. I quoted the law in post #19. It says a person is prohibited "who has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions." In addition to a DD, that would also include a Bad Conduct Discharge.

https://themilitarywallet.com/types-...ry-discharges/

February 11, 2019, 12:56 PM	#13
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,833	I would add, just FYI, that a Court Martial conviction is a FEDERAL felony conviction. That might make a difference for some things in life, but not for firearms possession. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

February 11, 2019, 02:02 PM	#14
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...dishonorable discharge is based on a general court-martial conviction..." Gross insubordination or repeatedly being AWOL, et al are not felonies, but are Courts Marital offences. https://courtmartial.com/is-a-court-...ered-a-felony/ This guy explains the whole thing really well. Keep you busy for hours. https://www.usmilitarylawyer.com/typ...rt-martial.asp __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

February 11, 2019, 02:32 PM	#16
Jim567 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2014 Location: NE FL Posts: 656	I am asking for myself - as - I would be the man taking a friend.with a DD. This man has been a great neighbor and family man. He was a Navy Corpsman, what he got in trouble for would probably be a misdemeanor on the outside. He has asked me to take him shooting. My private club will ask for a drivers licence. I cannot risk losing my rights as much as I would like to take him. My nephew was a Navy Corpsman, he had just gotten back from Afghanistan. He took a breath of laughing gas at the base hospital and was booted out for that. My friend and neighbors offense was similar. Good lord in my time in the Army mid 70s lol!!! Both these guys were happy in service, decorated and proud to serve. Last edited by Jim567; February 11, 2019 at 02:38 PM.

February 11, 2019, 03:30 PM	#20
tlm225 Senior Member Join Date: December 21, 2004 Location: Arkansas Posts: 962	Jim, providing your friend access to a firearm will be a violation of federal law, thus placing you in legal jeopardy. Check your state law as well. In my state it is also a felony to furnish a firearm to a prohibited person. __________________ All that is neccessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke

February 10, 2019, 10:38 AM	#1
Jim567 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2014 Location: NE FL Posts: 656	Dishonorable Discharge / shooting range May a person with a dishonorable discharge from the service - go to a shooting range? May they fire someone else’s weapon there? I am assuming no.

February 10, 2019, 10:51 AM	#2
LineStretcher Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2018 Posts: 619	If you know a person cannot own or posses a gun you cannot facilitate allowing them to own or posses a gun anywhere, anytime. That would be a Felony for the both of you. If you didn't know, that might be a different story but by posting this question we know you do know. In fact, having that person anywhere near a firearm could cause constructive possession and you could be charged. Yes that means your home too!

February 10, 2019, 11:02 AM	#3
kmw1954 Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2016 Location: SE Wisconsin Posts: 1,524	Why would a Dishonorable Discharge preclude someone from owning guns? There are many reasons for a Dishonorable Discharge that do not include Felonies.

February 10, 2019, 11:03 AM	#4
BillM Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2009 Location: Amity Oregon Posts: 791	The dishonorable discharge is based on a general court-martial conviction. This means the conviction is a felony, regardless of what the underlying offense may have been. The convicted felon is banned from possessing a firearm including Title II Firearms (a Silencer, SBR, SBS, AOW, or Machine Gun).

February 10, 2019, 11:28 AM	#5
thallub Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2007 Location: South Western OK Posts: 3,112	The US military is required to report dishonorable discharges to NICS. The USAF forgot to do that in the case of the Texas church shooter. https://bearingarms.com/tom-k/2018/0...scharges-nics/

February 10, 2019, 09:09 PM	#6
Dfariswheel Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2001 Posts: 7,478	A dishonorable discharge can only be handed out after a finding of a court martial. It's a military punishment for a crime committed while in the service. It's equivalent to a civilian court finding you guilty of a felony crime. A Dishonorable Discharge is what it is. It doesn't matter why you were court martialed and given a DD, it's still a felony conviction. A DD IS a felony conviction and there's no such thing as a non-felony DD. Like a civilian felony conviction you loose some Civil Rights, including the right to even touch a firearm. For a person with a DD on his record to be in ANY contact with a firearm is the same as Guido the convicted Mafia boss being in contact with a firearm. It's another felony crime.

February 10, 2019, 10:20 PM	#8
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,468	https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/44...53009/download Questions 11.b, 11.c, and 11.g And the instructions for 11.b and 11.c

February 10, 2019, 10:54 PM	#9
kmw1954 Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2016 Location: SE Wisconsin Posts: 1,524	OK. Coming from a military family where my father left as a Major, 3 brothers and a sister plus myself all being veterans one would think I'd remember that. Must not been paying attention to that detail.

February 11, 2019, 11:13 AM	#10
TrueBlue711 Senior Member Join Date: March 16, 2011 Posts: 489	For purchasing a gun, no. As mentioned already by others, that's a question(s) on the 4473. But to just shoot at a range? It would depend on the range. Every range I've been to, I've never been asked that question to just shoot there. I never rent guns since I have so many of my own, so I'm not sure how in depth the check is.

February 11, 2019, 03:49 PM	#21
Jim567 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2014 Location: NE FL Posts: 656	Thanks so much for all the input! I am going to ask him if he has considered upgrading his discharge.

February 11, 2019, 05:08 PM	#22
Roamin_Wade Junior member Join Date: July 11, 2018 Location: Baytown, TX Posts: 220	If I meet a person that says they used to be in the military I may never ask if he had a DD. That being said, if I one day invite him to go shooting with me the range doesn’t know either. I have a hard time agreeing that I would be guilty of a felony. Even if I know he had a DD, without ever having been in the service I wouldn’t know that he is precluded from shooting a firearm. It is totally plausible that a person like me not know that a person is a felon for having a DD. Aren’t most of them from punching a superior officer? A fist fight can make a person unable to own guns for life?