190gr 38spl+p+ AKA 38/44

[NorthIDIndependent]

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

I wanted to push a 190gr hunters supply hard cast about 900fps out of a .357magnum revolver 2”-4” and figured this could be achieved with a medium pressure 357 magnum load OR maybe a hot rod 38.
However, regardless of my desired performance, I want to be safe.
I’ve read somewhere that 6.3grs of hs-6 would make standard 38 pressures with this bullet, that sounds about right to me.
I loaded up some 158gr hard cast with with 7gr if hs-6 and it was a sturdy 38spl +p, safe in my steel frame 357 mag of coarse.
I’m going to put 7gr hs- 6 under a 190gr today, hopefully I can test it soon and let you guys know how it goes. I know a lot of you don’t care much for speculating about hand loads but I appreciate performance estimates from anyone with some insight.

[NorthIDIndependent]

I’m sure most will wonder what my real motivation is with this, My hypothesis is that I will get more efficiency from the shorter cartridge at a higher pressure than the larger case at a lower “medium” pressure. Out of these short barrel lengths energy is wasted and my goal is to midigate that inefficiency with a long heavy bullet, Slightly quicker powder then standard magnum powder, and hopefully higher pressure in a smaller case.

[Unclenick]

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assumes any liability for any damage or injury resulting from the use of this information.

Using a 357 magnum case, and taking Hodgdon's 170 grain JHC and changing the start pressure to match cast bullet start pressure and extrapolating length (I got 0.827") and using full 1.590" COL, it looks like your current load of 7 grains of HS-6 would get about 869 and 992 fps from the 2" and 4 revolvers with tight chambers, respectively. It's a pretty wild guess without your actual bullet length and COL and it's just a program for estimating and not to be relied on for final numbers.

You will have to work up, carefully watching for pressure signs, but the software estimates your maximum load would be about 8.2 grains, based on matching the pressure prediction it gives for Hodgdon's maximum load with the 170-grain JHC. If you safely work up to that, it says to expect about 966 and 1086 fps for velocity. 900 fps looks like 7.6 grains for the 2" barrel and 6.5 grains for the 4" barrel. I will caution you that the pressures are getting low for the 4" load for a slow burning powder and it is likely to be dirty and not produce great velocity SD, so a magnum primer may be needed to get it to work better during load work-up.

[NorthIDIndependent]

Bullets measure .758” avg. length
COL is 1.46 in these 38spl +p+ but they can be crimped into a lube groove for a COL OF 1.58. If the increased case capacity’s lower pressures decreases the burn efficiency, i think I’d rather have higher preassure(sticky 38 cases don’t bother me).

[reddog81]

A sticky 38 case has the same meaning as a sticky .357 case. Once you've reached that point you are too hot.

The standard .38 Special bullets are around 124 to 158 grains jumping to 190 grains to avoid inefficiency will create as many issues as it'll resolve.

[52_and_done]

I have been loading for my brother's Smith M13 3" for about 9 years now, with the same load in 38 cases and have run several thousand rounds of this thru it with no ill effects, but I don't think it would be hot enough for what you are wanting. No sticky cases, primers look Great, shoots poa/poi, I extrapolated this from what data I could find, it might be another avenue for you to investigate though;

Smith M13 3"
Starline .38 brass
CCI 500
Hunters Supply 180g LRNFP (with a crimp groove)
Unique 3.8g
Shoots to the fixed sights

You might be able to raise that charge up some for your intended usage, I stopped where I did because he wanted a load that shot to his sights.

Hope this helps, if even just a little bit.

[USSR]

I loaded up some 158gr hard cast with with 7gr if hs-6 and it was a sturdy 38spl +p, safe in my steel frame 357 mag of coarse.
I’m going to put 7gr hs- 6 under a 190gr today, hopefully I can test it soon and let you guys know how it goes.

FWIW, 7.0gr of HS-6 behind a 158gr lead bullet is a well known .38 Special +P load at the very top of +P pressure specs. The same load using a 190gr bullet in a .38 Special case would be well into .357 Magnum pressure levels. Not a problem in your .357 Magnum revolver, but would be a definite problem if it found it's way into a .38 Special revolver.

Don

[NorthIDIndependent]

A sticky 38 case has the same meaning as a sticky .357 case. Once you've reached that point you are too hot.

It takes far more pressure to expand a magnum enough to stick.id guess 38spls start getting sticky at an estimated 24k depending on the revolver

[NorthIDIndependent]

Originally Posted by 52_and_done

I have been loading for my brother's Smith M13 3" for about 9 years now, with the same load in 38 cases and have run several thousand rounds of this thru it with no ill effects, but I don't think it would be hot enough for what you are wanting.
Smith M13 3"
Starline .38 brass
CCI 500
Hunters Supply 180g LRNFP (with a crimp groove)
Unique 3.8g.

Hey, all the data you posted is helpful thanks for sharing

[reddog81]

Originally Posted by NorthIDIndependent

It takes far more pressure to expand a magnum enough to stick.id guess 38spls start getting sticky at an estimated 24k depending on the revolver

Everything I've ever read would suggest that .38 Special brass can handle .357 pressures without issue. The brass doesn't know that it's a .38 Special case vs. a .357 case.

Same goes for primers. People often recommend to watch flat primers in low pressure cartridges like .38 Special, 45 ACP and such. The primer has no idea if it's in a .38 Special load or .357 load. You can be at double the pressure for .38 Special and it's going to act just like it would in a .357 case.

[USSR]

Everything I've ever read would suggest that .38 Special brass can handle .357 pressures without issue. The brass doesn't know that it's a .38 Special case vs. a .357 case.

True. Hotrodding .38 Special loads in S&W N frames in the 20's and 30's is what led to the development of the .357 Magnum.

Don

[Unclenick]

At that load it looks like your 7.0 grains will produce about 31,000 psi, so it's a magnum load. The software predicts 1038 fps from the 4" revolver and 923 fps from the 2". But keep in mind the software's virtual gun is perfectly minimum dimensioned so, just like commercial ammo tested in minimum chamber test barrels, the velocity may be a bit higher than you actually get. Only a chronograph will tell you.

As mentioned, Elmer Keith, Phillip Sharpe and D. B. Wesson developed the .357 Magnum by overloading .38 Specials in heavy frame revolvers. The brass can handle it just fine. The longer Magnum brass was introduced just to keep people from accidentally chambering the higher pressure rounds in .38 Special chambers that weren't beefy enough for them. It's not because they really need the extra case capacity (though, it doesn't hurt when you are going for maximum loads with heavier bullets).

That 31,000 psi load is fine in your .357 revolver from the standpoint of pressure. But you do want to watch out for gas cutting of the bullet bases building up a ring of lead in the 0.135" gap between the end of the Special case and where a Magnum case stops. Such rings are known to squeeze bullets when magnum cartridges are chambered after using enough of the higher pressure lead bullet loads in .38 Special cases. That can raise pressure or even prevent the magnum cartridges from chambering at all. For that reason, I tend to stick to Magnum cases in my guns chambered for them, even for light wadcutter loads. It's just another thing not to have to think about.

Steel is more elastic than brass, even if harder to stretch. When you get sticky cast extraction from high pressure, it means the steel has been stretched beyond the yield point of the brass, so when the steel springs back to shape the brass can't spring all the way back with it, so it gets clamped onto by the chamber's return to shape. The general rule of thumb is that much stretching of the steel will eventually fatigue it, so if you work a load just up to that point you back it off 5% for the welfare of the gun and brass, both.

[zxcvbob]

Herco is a good powder for this project. I experimented with .38/44 using 158 grain cast bullets and various powders a few years ago; mostly for my Marlin 1894 because I could fit an extra round in the magazine, but I worked up the loads using a .357 revolver. I don't remember the load data, but I wouldn't post it here anyway.

But I will say not to try this with Blue Dot. I blew the heads clean off of some .38 Special cases using Blue Dot with what I thought was a safe hotrod load

[zeke]

Personally would just try a faster/bulkier powder in 357 mag cases.

[NorthIDIndependent]

I loaded some up with 2.5gr-3grs of BE they shot well the recoil was lighter with the fast powder. I don’t have any velocity data but They’re Pretty much exactly what I’m trying to achieve. What powders perform best in short barrels? I always kinda thought BE was great because it pressure spikes early and quick. But I do get powder residue and muzzle flash. Is something more like unique better?

[Jim Watson]

I don't understand. What you have now achieved is to get a velocity of maybe 600 fps. Far below your stated goal of 900 fps.

Mason Williams (the gunzine writer, not the guitarist) once did a piece on the short barreled magnum. Contrary to Modern Internet Lore, the slow burning powders that gave highest velocity in long barrels continued to do so in short barrels. The velocity was less, but it was not improved by going to a faster burning "efficient" powder.
The problem was loud blast, bright flash, and heavy recoil.
He was happier at the 80% level loading Blue Dot. There are lots of powders in that range now. But an 80% magnum is still going to be a harsh load to fire in a short gun.

Lyman 44th edition, 1967 is available on pdf. It shows 195 grain .38 and .357 loads with the powders then available. Velocities are as shot in real guns not test barrels, 6" K38 and 5" M27.
http://www.nzha.co.nz/wp-content/upl...08/Lyman44.pdf
https://www.scribd.com/document/1667...h-Edition-1967

[NorthIDIndependent]

Slower burning powders will absolutely get me better velocities. No denying that. I’m not trying to achieve better velocity with faster powder, I think that’d be silly. I’m not even trying to achieve 900 FPS Perse. I’m just trying to avoid the inefficiency’s of the hs-6 powder I have in this short barrel by spiking the pressure. And so far I’m achieving my goal of less unburned powder and less flash. It’s still not the most efficient combo I’m sure but it’s what I have and I want it to be magnum pressure without throwing a bunch of powder out of the muzzle.

[NorthIDIndependent]

If I want 70% magnum performance( the max I’d want in this little gun) that’s a low pressure in a 357 mag case unless I use a quicker powder or shorten case capacity to get high pressure. Make no mistake, I don’t want a full magnum loaded with something like bullseye, that’s why I chose the surplus of hs-6 for this project.

[Unclenick]

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assumes any liability for any damage or injury resulting from the use of this information.

Yes. Fast powder in short barrels is used more efficiently and the fast you are ejecting a smaller mass of gas at high pressure after the bullet clears the muzzle means you will get lower recoil even when the gun can tolerate the higher pressure needed to reach that same velocity.

The other factor with very short barrels like the 1⅞" 38 Special snubbies, is velocity extreme spread. We had a fellow at The Shooter's Forum finding velocity variation of up to around 25% using slow powder in his. Switching to a faster powder eliminated the high percentage velocity variation, but the highest average velocity he could get from safe pressures with it was lower. It was, however, an improvement in that the lowest velocity in the spread produced by the fast powder was higher than the lowest velocity in the spread produced by the slow powder, meaning the slow one could let him down more dramatically in a pinch.

One thing I don't recall from the snubbie experimenter's tests is whether he tried a magnum primer to improve ignition consistency or not.

If you are willing to shoot slower loads than the 900 fps you targeted, board member Stats Shooter has reported to me a new powder with a burn rate in the range of Unique is the cleanest burning pistol powder he's ever tested. That is Winchester Winclean 244. Both powders list their maximum load for 158 grain LSWC's as 6 grains. The Winclean 244 shows higher velocity, a portion of which is due to Winchester using a 10" barrel for their data and Alliant using a 6" barrel for theirs, but that can't account for it all, so the 244 is apparently a higher energy powder. 244's max load with a 180-grain Nosler Partition bullet (0.808" long) of 5.2 grains should produce pressure and velocity in about the same range with your 0.758" long 190-grain cast bullet in a .357 case. Because Winclean is a Ball powder, with high surface deterrent coatings, Winchester uses a magnum primer to ignite it in the 357 magnum case. You may or may not need that in the tighter 38 Special case, but you may need to cut the charge down some in there. That big bullet will take up a bigger percentage of the volume of a 38 special case than it does of the longer magnum case. Not a huge difference, but QuickLOAD thinks it is enough to raise pressure roughly 40% with Unique (244 is too new to be in its database), so, be cautious if you make the switch as it may call for half a grain less powder even running the 38+P brass at 357 Mag pressures.

[USSR]

I don't understand. What you have now achieved is to get a velocity of maybe 600 fps.

NIDI,

I also don't understand what you are trying to achieve. Pick a velocity range, find a powder that gives a normal pressure at that velocity, then do your load development work. HS-6 and Bullseye are used for entirely different purposes.

Don

[reddog81]

Did you ever try the 6.3 grains HS-6 with the bullet? I'm guessing HS-6 going to be just as dirty and just flashy. FWIW Hodgdon's website lists 5.9 grains as the max load for HS-6 with a 170 grain bullet in 38 Special. 38 +P has a max of 6.3 and .357 has a max 9.2 grains.

Personally I'd be willing to try 6.3 grains in either a .357 or .38 case assuming it's going to be shot in a gun capable of .357 Magnum pressure. I'd be hesitant to try that combo in a .38 Special gun.

[NorthIDIndependent]

The post I made about 2.5-3gr of BE was kind of an unintentional red herring. I don’t mean to give any impression that I’m considering BE for this project. Those loads were more for bullet/function testing with a modest charge of a powder so I can feel better about putting real pressure behind this bullets later on down the road. To clarify, I don’t ontend to use BE for these loads. I’m using Hs-6. I apologize for the confusion

[NorthIDIndependent]

I shot some loads today.

190gr/ 6.5gr Hs-6 COL 1.47” felt good flash looked ok, some unburnt powder.

190gr/ 7.0gr Hs-6 COL 1.47” about the same, little more flash but it’s hard to tell in daylight, seems like it burnt cleaner, more prominent pressure signs.

I need to load up some more and video the shots around dusk so I can review the flash.

I think Ill look for accuracy around 6.8grs with a mag primer, and that’ll probably close the book on this one( for me)

[zxcvbob]

Bullseye is not necessarily a bad powder for .357 Magnum. It's just a little faster-burning than Unique; it's extremely high energy per gram is what pushes it to the top of the burn rate charts. Look at Alliant's load data for .357 with BE, especially the 148 grain wadcutters if they still publish that one.

[NorthIDIndependent]

I’ve used BE in a lot of different load configurations but I just don’t like the small mass, high pressure charges in the great case capacity of the 357 but that’s a great reason to load the small capacity 38s but regardless I just stay away from max loads