Short barrel loads

littlephil · December 15, 2014, 08:10 PM

Hello all, I'm just wondering who loads for rifles with short barrels (around 18") and if and how you keep the muzzle blast down. I'm in the process of making a short brush rifle in 7.62x54r that I want to shoot heavy bullets out of and would like to help out smokey by preventing forest fires.

Any advice is appreciated.

Mike / Tx · December 16, 2014, 05:42 AM

I'm loading for and shooting a .308 with a 16.5" barrel. Unfortunately the same powders which work well with a 22-24" barrel also work just as well with the shorter one. As for the blast, well it is what it is, not much you can do about it other than to install a can.

That said, you also have the option of going with cast loads since you looking for something to use fairly up close anyway. Going that route, you can up the bullet weight into the 180+ grain range, but your charges will be drastically lower, as will the report and associated blast. Don't underestimate the cast bullets either, they worked for a hundred years or more and will still deliver Bambi to the freezer if you put them where they need to go. The heavier bullets carry better than the lighter ones and once started they don't like to stop.

Check out the Castboolits site, there is a ton of folks shooting that caliber and similar.

littlephil · December 16, 2014, 01:50 PM

Thanks a bunch mike. I read somewhere that using faster burning powders would help (less unburnt powder I'm guessing). I also wondered about shooting cast, but I've never loaded them before. I'll have to stop by their site and check it out. Thanks again for the input.

T. O'Heir · December 16, 2014, 02:18 PM

Like Mike says, same powders regardless to the barrel length. The only difference you'll find is lower velocities. And a huge fireball, but that's to be expected. Cast bullets will deliver Bullwinkle too.
"...a short brush rifle in 7.62x54r..." That'd be an M44 Mosin-Nagant. Really not much different than a No. 5 Lee-Enfield. Knew a guy who hunted moose with one of 'em exclusively. Said it only took one shot and he didn't shoot targets with it.

SSA · December 16, 2014, 04:11 PM

I have a 308 with a 19" barrel and never worried about the blast.
Never shot a 7.62x54r.
If you don't need max velocity or a long range load, somewhere around 40 grains of 3031 or 4895 with a 170 gr flatpoint or a 180 gr roundnose should be pretty effective.

madmo44mag · December 16, 2014, 04:25 PM

Just a thought.
If you could find a linear compensator IMHO it would help with muzzle blast.
It would direct the blast straight out in front of the barrel and by design keep the blast is a more cone like shape moving away from the barrel.
Also reduces recoil very well.

Jim Watson · December 16, 2014, 04:25 PM

Warning, I do not own a 7.64x54R.

I read so often of the tremendous blast and flash from a Mosin Nagant 7.62x54R, especially the carbines, but seldom of anything similar from other rifles of similar case capacity and barrel length.

Does the MN have more blast than a Mauser, etc.
If so, I have to think it is Iron Curtain Powder.
Handloads with common powders suitable to the round are not going to be any worse than the next full power round in the same barrel length. They are not going to be any better, either.

You don't have to use cast bullets to shoot reduced loads.
Norma used to sell, and print load data for what they called the .30-30-06. That is, .30-06 loaded to .30-30 velocity with easily expanded .30-30 bullets.

littlephil · December 16, 2014, 06:39 PM

T O'Heir, that's the exact rifle it is, although slightly altered. It's already in a boyds stock, which should help with a lot of the recoil. I'll be removing the sights and putting a decent front sight on and so on. But after the front sight/bayonet lug is off, I'm thinking of cutting the barrel to 17 or 18 inches (hence my original question).

SSA, I was thinking of running either a 180 or 200gr bullet. I'm not too concerned about max velocity or long range shots with this one (I've got other guns for that if need be

).

Madmo, I was actually thinking about putting an a2 or birdcage style flash hider on it. I'm not too concerned about the recoil with the above mentioned stock. I mostly just want to tame the flames.

Jim, I also have a full length 91/30 and a turk mauser in 8x57 that was full length, both of which have been fed surplus ammo. I can say for sure that the 54r has more muzzle blast. The fireball out of the carbine is at least basketball sized and anywhere from 2 to about 4 feet from the muzzle, depending on what kind of surplus is used. You may be on to something with the powder theory, I guess I'll just have to see what happens when I get to load up a few. Also, those "pussycat" loads for the 06 sound very interesting. Sounds like a good deer load for my fiance and my daughters when they're old enough.

Thanks for all the input so far, it's greatly appreciated!

Jim Watson · December 16, 2014, 06:44 PM

Think it through, you could load down the Russky, too.

Once upon a time the US international free rifle team shot a load with the 173 gr military match bullet at maybe 2200-2300 fps. Plenty for 300 metres.

603Country · December 16, 2014, 07:51 PM

Neighbor's kid has a Moisin. The muzzle blast is amazing. Must be a powder issue.

My 223, loaded with a 40 gr bullet over H335 (near max) has an impressive muzzle blast and fireball. My 220 Swift, with a hot load of IMR4064 has very little muzzle blast and fireball, even with much more powder than the 223.

I'm thinking that the powder must be the important factor here. But it's a guess.

jmr40 · December 16, 2014, 10:28 PM

Quote:

I read somewhere that using faster burning powders would help (less unburnt powder I'm guessing).

That is a common misconception and often repeated on the internet and in gunshops etc. The fact is that the fastest powders and slowest will all burn within a few inches. Slow burning powders might need a little more barrel, but will be burned up well within any barrel legal as a rifle. You might see some differences when shooting rifle cartridges from short barreled handguns.

littlephil · December 17, 2014, 02:19 AM

Jim, I probably will do up some light loads for the 54r, but I'll most likely run those through my 91/30 as I'm planning on running about a 150gr pill out of it so long as they're accurate.

603, I've noticed that (at least in the rifles I shot) 223 has a pretty loud report, along with a decent fireball for a fairly small round.

Jmr, the article I read about flash hiders and muzzle brakes stated (iirc) that the muzzle flash was produced by unburnt powder mixing with oxygen once it left the bore. I could be remembering wrong too (that happens quite often).

reynolds357 · December 19, 2014, 10:43 PM

I learned a long time ago when dealing with TC Contender pistols and carbines that the long barrels and the short barrels like the same loads.

Kosh75287 · December 20, 2014, 03:43 PM

This isn't a panacea, but you could try 16.0/Alliant2400/150. It won't give you full power by any means, but I would expect it to burn more completely in a 16.5" barrel than, say IMR-3031 or 4895. I've read on other forums that it's amazingly accurate and potent to 200 yards.

I am dubious of the assertion that all powder charges are essentially completely burned within the first 2 or 3 inches of barrel. If it was true, then getting Alliant 2400 to burn in a 6 1/2" barreled .44 Mag would be a snap. I haven't gotten it to happen, YET.

And while 2400 doesn't want to burn completely in a 6 1/2" tube, I think the odds of it burning completely (or at least MUCH more so) in one 2.5 times greater in length are considerably greater.

jmorris · December 20, 2014, 07:33 PM

I have rifles with barrels as short as 8.5". Faster powders and suppressors work pretty good at reducing flash.

littlephil · December 21, 2014, 02:53 PM

Reynolds, that seems to be the consensus for short barrels. I'll probably just have to play with some different powders and see what happens.

Kosh and jmorris, thanks for the info. I don't think I'll need full house loads when I'm after deer in thick brush. If I go to pa or wv for bears I'll probly run some hotter loads on the rare chance that I see one. (That seems to be the consensus with bear hunting those states) I'd much rather deal with some noise and flash than be worried if I loaded the rounds hot enough. (I also worry about some dumb stuff sometimes)

Thanks again to all for the info! Hope everyone has a merry Christmas and a happy new year! (It ain't too far away!)

Longshot4 · December 21, 2014, 03:18 PM

Check out the 300 Blackout round. It is made for short barrels.

jmorris · December 21, 2014, 04:08 PM

Quote:

I don't think I'll need full house loads when I'm after deer in thick brush.

When it comes to deer in thick brush I would rather have too much gun than not enough. If one runs 100 yds after being hit in a bean field it's no big deal, 100 yds in thick brush is a different story.

In thick brush you will likely only have a chance with one shot, flash shouldn't bother you or the deer.

littlephil · December 22, 2014, 05:16 AM

Longshot, I've checked out the 300 blackout and it seems like a neat round. I may get one someday but for now, I've already got the m44 (and got it cheap to begin with). Although I haven't looked at any reloading data for it to see what kind of powders are recommended. Although if I remember right, wasn't it originaly designed to be suppresed?

Jmorris, you make a very valid point, which is part of the reason my original idea was to load heavy bullets. Hit em with a heavy chunk of lead to (in my head at least) put em down quick. But I'm always open to suggestions and advice because I can be real narrow minded at times.

Thanks for all the advice!

December 15, 2014, 08:10 PM	#1
littlephil Senior Member Join Date: January 28, 2014 Location: Coshocton, Ohio Posts: 231	Short barrel loads Hello all, I'm just wondering who loads for rifles with short barrels (around 18") and if and how you keep the muzzle blast down. I'm in the process of making a short brush rifle in 7.62x54r that I want to shoot heavy bullets out of and would like to help out smokey by preventing forest fires. Any advice is appreciated.

December 16, 2014, 05:42 AM	#2
Mike / Tx Senior Member Join Date: April 8, 2000 Posts: 2,101	I'm loading for and shooting a .308 with a 16.5" barrel. Unfortunately the same powders which work well with a 22-24" barrel also work just as well with the shorter one. As for the blast, well it is what it is, not much you can do about it other than to install a can. That said, you also have the option of going with cast loads since you looking for something to use fairly up close anyway. Going that route, you can up the bullet weight into the 180+ grain range, but your charges will be drastically lower, as will the report and associated blast. Don't underestimate the cast bullets either, they worked for a hundred years or more and will still deliver Bambi to the freezer if you put them where they need to go. The heavier bullets carry better than the lighter ones and once started they don't like to stop. Check out the Castboolits site, there is a ton of folks shooting that caliber and similar. __________________ LAter, Mike / TX

December 16, 2014, 02:18 PM	#4
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	Like Mike says, same powders regardless to the barrel length. The only difference you'll find is lower velocities. And a huge fireball, but that's to be expected. Cast bullets will deliver Bullwinkle too. "...a short brush rifle in 7.62x54r..." That'd be an M44 Mosin-Nagant. Really not much different than a No. 5 Lee-Enfield. Knew a guy who hunted moose with one of 'em exclusively. Said it only took one shot and he didn't shoot targets with it. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

December 16, 2014, 04:25 PM	#6
madmo44mag Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2008 Location: Ft.Worth, Texas Posts: 1,522	Just a thought. If you could find a linear compensator IMHO it would help with muzzle blast. It would direct the blast straight out in front of the barrel and by design keep the blast is a more cone like shape moving away from the barrel. Also reduces recoil very well. __________________ Texas - Not just a state but an attitude! For monthly shooting events in DFW visit http://www.meetup.com/TexasGunOwner-DFW

December 20, 2014, 03:43 PM	#14
Kosh75287 Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 2007 Posts: 820	Short-barreled rifle load. This isn't a panacea, but you could try 16.0/Alliant2400/150. It won't give you full power by any means, but I would expect it to burn more completely in a 16.5" barrel than, say IMR-3031 or 4895. I've read on other forums that it's amazingly accurate and potent to 200 yards. I am dubious of the assertion that all powder charges are essentially completely burned within the first 2 or 3 inches of barrel. If it was true, then getting Alliant 2400 to burn in a 6 1/2" barreled .44 Mag would be a snap. I haven't gotten it to happen, YET. And while 2400 doesn't want to burn completely in a 6 1/2" tube, I think the odds of it burning completely (or at least MUCH more so) in one 2.5 times greater in length are considerably greater. Last edited by Kosh75287; December 20, 2014 at 05:03 PM.

December 16, 2014, 01:50 PM	#3
littlephil Senior Member Join Date: January 28, 2014 Location: Coshocton, Ohio Posts: 231	Thanks a bunch mike. I read somewhere that using faster burning powders would help (less unburnt powder I'm guessing). I also wondered about shooting cast, but I've never loaded them before. I'll have to stop by their site and check it out. Thanks again for the input.

December 16, 2014, 04:11 PM	#5
SSA Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2010 Posts: 641	I have a 308 with a 19" barrel and never worried about the blast. Never shot a 7.62x54r. If you don't need max velocity or a long range load, somewhere around 40 grains of 3031 or 4895 with a 170 gr flatpoint or a 180 gr roundnose should be pretty effective.

December 16, 2014, 04:25 PM	#7
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	Warning, I do not own a 7.64x54R. I read so often of the tremendous blast and flash from a Mosin Nagant 7.62x54R, especially the carbines, but seldom of anything similar from other rifles of similar case capacity and barrel length. Does the MN have more blast than a Mauser, etc. If so, I have to think it is Iron Curtain Powder. Handloads with common powders suitable to the round are not going to be any worse than the next full power round in the same barrel length. They are not going to be any better, either. You don't have to use cast bullets to shoot reduced loads. Norma used to sell, and print load data for what they called the .30-30-06. That is, .30-06 loaded to .30-30 velocity with easily expanded .30-30 bullets.

December 16, 2014, 06:39 PM	#8
littlephil Senior Member Join Date: January 28, 2014 Location: Coshocton, Ohio Posts: 231	T O'Heir, that's the exact rifle it is, although slightly altered. It's already in a boyds stock, which should help with a lot of the recoil. I'll be removing the sights and putting a decent front sight on and so on. But after the front sight/bayonet lug is off, I'm thinking of cutting the barrel to 17 or 18 inches (hence my original question). SSA, I was thinking of running either a 180 or 200gr bullet. I'm not too concerned about max velocity or long range shots with this one (I've got other guns for that if need be ). Madmo, I was actually thinking about putting an a2 or birdcage style flash hider on it. I'm not too concerned about the recoil with the above mentioned stock. I mostly just want to tame the flames. Jim, I also have a full length 91/30 and a turk mauser in 8x57 that was full length, both of which have been fed surplus ammo. I can say for sure that the 54r has more muzzle blast. The fireball out of the carbine is at least basketball sized and anywhere from 2 to about 4 feet from the muzzle, depending on what kind of surplus is used. You may be on to something with the powder theory, I guess I'll just have to see what happens when I get to load up a few. Also, those "pussycat" loads for the 06 sound very interesting. Sounds like a good deer load for my fiance and my daughters when they're old enough. Thanks for all the input so far, it's greatly appreciated!

December 16, 2014, 06:44 PM	#9
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	Think it through, you could load down the Russky, too. Once upon a time the US international free rifle team shot a load with the 173 gr military match bullet at maybe 2200-2300 fps. Plenty for 300 metres.

December 16, 2014, 07:51 PM	#10
603Country Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2011 Location: Thornton, Texas Posts: 3,998	Neighbor's kid has a Moisin. The muzzle blast is amazing. Must be a powder issue. My 223, loaded with a 40 gr bullet over H335 (near max) has an impressive muzzle blast and fireball. My 220 Swift, with a hot load of IMR4064 has very little muzzle blast and fireball, even with much more powder than the 223. I'm thinking that the powder must be the important factor here. But it's a guess.

December 17, 2014, 02:19 AM	#12
littlephil Senior Member Join Date: January 28, 2014 Location: Coshocton, Ohio Posts: 231	Jim, I probably will do up some light loads for the 54r, but I'll most likely run those through my 91/30 as I'm planning on running about a 150gr pill out of it so long as they're accurate. 603, I've noticed that (at least in the rifles I shot) 223 has a pretty loud report, along with a decent fireball for a fairly small round. Jmr, the article I read about flash hiders and muzzle brakes stated (iirc) that the muzzle flash was produced by unburnt powder mixing with oxygen once it left the bore. I could be remembering wrong too (that happens quite often).

December 19, 2014, 10:43 PM	#13
reynolds357 Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2012 Posts: 6,165	I learned a long time ago when dealing with TC Contender pistols and carbines that the long barrels and the short barrels like the same loads.

December 20, 2014, 07:33 PM	#15
jmorris Senior Member Join Date: November 22, 2006 Posts: 3,077	I have rifles with barrels as short as 8.5". Faster powders and suppressors work pretty good at reducing flash.

December 21, 2014, 02:53 PM	#16
littlephil Senior Member Join Date: January 28, 2014 Location: Coshocton, Ohio Posts: 231	Reynolds, that seems to be the consensus for short barrels. I'll probably just have to play with some different powders and see what happens. Kosh and jmorris, thanks for the info. I don't think I'll need full house loads when I'm after deer in thick brush. If I go to pa or wv for bears I'll probly run some hotter loads on the rare chance that I see one. (That seems to be the consensus with bear hunting those states) I'd much rather deal with some noise and flash than be worried if I loaded the rounds hot enough. (I also worry about some dumb stuff sometimes) Thanks again to all for the info! Hope everyone has a merry Christmas and a happy new year! (It ain't too far away!)

December 21, 2014, 03:18 PM	#17
Longshot4 Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2014 Posts: 868	Check out the 300 Blackout round. It is made for short barrels.

December 22, 2014, 05:16 AM	#19
littlephil Senior Member Join Date: January 28, 2014 Location: Coshocton, Ohio Posts: 231	Longshot, I've checked out the 300 blackout and it seems like a neat round. I may get one someday but for now, I've already got the m44 (and got it cheap to begin with). Although I haven't looked at any reloading data for it to see what kind of powders are recommended. Although if I remember right, wasn't it originaly designed to be suppresed? Jmorris, you make a very valid point, which is part of the reason my original idea was to load heavy bullets. Hit em with a heavy chunk of lead to (in my head at least) put em down quick. But I'm always open to suggestions and advice because I can be real narrow minded at times. Thanks for all the advice!