Stubborn copper fouling in new Glock 17

[Torre]

Hi folks,

So I'm about 1000 rounds in on my Glock 17. At about 700 rounds I started to notice that while the barrel looked clean and shiny at a quick glance, turning it around in front of a good light showed some streaks/fouling along the lands in the barrel.

I've cleaned my gun after every range session (100-200 rounds). I usually put some Ballistol GunCer in the barrel, let it soak a bit - do 10 to 20 passes with a brass brush and then push through Ballistol soaked patches until they come out clean (usually takes me about 15 patches atleast before it they start looking really clean).

The brass brush is clearly not effective enough, as I once even did 50 passes and the fouling was still there.

The guy in my gunstore told me that my gun is too new to use strong copper solvents in (is that even true?) that it might damage the barrel surface. Is it normal for such a new gun to have this stubborn fouling - and how should I clean it out?

About 800 rounds has been Sellier & Bellot 124 grain FMJ. The rest were ARES 150 grain painted led bullets.

[BBarn]

I'd say the comment about the barrel being too new for strong copper solvents is nonsense. If the fouling really is copper I would try one of the solvents that is designed to remove copper, specifically one that can be left in the barrel for longer periods.

Soak the bore well with a wet patch or two of the copper solvent and let it soak awhile. Then check progress with a clean patch. I've had good results with Butch's Bore Shine but I'm sure there are other suitable ones as well.

[JohnKSa]

Copper fouling is normal and is to be expected.

Copper solvent won't hurt the bore if you follow the instructions on the solvent. That's true regardless of the age of the gun. I agree with BBarn's characterization of what the gun store guy told you.

MPro-7 and Hoppes Elite are decent general purpose bore cleaners that will take copper fouling out. They aren't nearly as aggressive as a true copper solvent, but if you use them regularly, they will do a decent job of keeping the bore clean.

Some of the better foaming bore cleaners also do a pretty good job on copper fouling--BreakFree foaming bore cleaner is one that seems to work pretty well for me.

Another option is RemClean which is a very mild abrasive that will clean the fouling out pretty fast. Just follow the instructions--if you don't, it won't work at all. Seriously, you MUST follow the instructions on the bottle or it's pointless to even mess with it.

All that said, the copper fouling likely isn't causing any problems. In rifles, it might result some accuracy reduction, but in a pistol, I doubt it does anything noticeable at all. When I do a thorough cleaning, I generally remove all the copper fouling, but that's just because I want to--not because it provides any benefit that I can detect.

Finally, when you use a copper solvent, you use it with a patch, both to apply it and to remove it. You don't want to get it on your brass/copper/bronze brushes for two reasons. It will eat them up, and it will give you false positives on your cleaning patches.

I typically alternate a nitro solvent and brushing as one step and then a copper solvent and patching, being sure to completely remove any trace of one type of cleaner before alternating to the other.

[Damon555]

Has the pistol quit performing up to your expectations? If not why worry about a little fouling in the barrel?.....A lot of folks will jump on me for saying this but I rarely clean the bores of my handguns.....they might get a coat of oil now and then but if they aren't showing signs of inaccuracy then they get left alone....
Which is 99% of the time.

[Torre]

Originally Posted by Damon555

Has the pistol quit performing up to your expectations? If not why worry about a little fouling in the barrel?.....A lot of folks will jump on me for saying this but I rarely clean the bores of my handguns.....they might get a coat of oil now and then but if they aren't showing signs of inaccuracy then they get left alone....
Which is 99% of the time.

Oh I'm not worried about getting my gun dirty. But when I clean it I want it to become clean. I'm probably more picky than most (same thing with cars), but I'm still curious as to how such stubborn fouling forms in a such a new gun with a frequent clean schedule.

I will try some copper solvent then and see how that goes. I assume it's coppar as there is a slight brownish color to it when looking at the muzzle end.

[OzeanJaeger]

Anhydrous ammonia (ammonia and water) reacts with cooper and zink, corroding them, and forming a stable compound. With copper it turns blue, and this is useful, because when the patches stop coming out blue the copper is gone. Sweets has a lot of amonia in it, but you can use anything with anhydrous amonia to clean out copper (windex works well too). Anhydrous amonia has no effect on iron or steel. You can certainly let your barrel soak with the caviat that there IS water, so an hour or so should be max, and run a patch with kroil or another light oil, when you’re done to displace the water and protect.

[WVsig]

I am not sure why people obsess over this. Unless there is a lot of fouling and by a lot I mean a ton you are never going to see a difference in accuracy out of that pistol barrel. You can put a million different chemicals and scrub the crap out of it but as soon as you head to the range and put 50 rounds down that barrel guess what will be back.

COPPER FOULING. LOL

More people damage their barrels by obsessively cleaning them then improve accuracy or longevity IMHO.

[Damon555]

Anhydrous ammonia (ammonia and water)

Sorry but this is incorrect....We have thousands of gallons of anhydrous ammonia at work and in no way does it contain any significant amount of water.

The correct term for ammonia diluted in water is "aqueous" ammonia.....this is generally how ammonia is delivered in household cleaners......it is very dilute. Whereas anhydrous ammonia is extremely potent and believe it or not, flammable in the proper concentrations.

But I agree that the ammonia based cleaners do a stellar job of removing copper fouling......I use Butches bore shine and Sweets 7.62 on my rifle barrels and it makes very quick work of any copper.

[Doyle]

The absolute best copper solvent I have ever seen is KG12. Beats the heck out of even pure ammonia.

[FITASC]

The rest were ARES 150 grain painted led bullets.

You certain it is copper?

[pat701]

Bench rest shooters use a patch with Kroil on it, and put JB bore paste on the patch(google it up) i use it. Use a bronze brush, repeat until clean, then o spray brake cleaner down the barrel and patch. I have readthat some people use tooth paste, i never tried tooth paste. Kroil also removes lead fouling, it comes out in sheets, after sitting in the barrel for 5 min.

[fourbore]

Butch's Bore Bright is a good product. You can leave it to soak over night if needed. My opinion is a solvent and time is less wear on the bore than using more agressive paste's or abrasives.

[sigarms228]

I don't worry much about copper fouling in a pistol.

Todd Green during his 50,000 endurance test of the HK45 cleaned it only 7 times and never commented about accuracy problems.

http://pistol-training.com/archives/4027

I do use Hoppes NO9 to clean the bore of my pistols and have not found any excess copper build up and I don't worry about removing every trace. I have not seen dirty patches indicating much copper showing blue and often don't clean until about 500 rounds fired. Hoppes NO9 can be left in the bore for several hours and I usually let it set for an hour before brass/bronze brushing a dozen time back and forth if I have the time. I also clean my brass/bronze brush in hot water and dry it when done and find it may need replacing after several dozens of cleanings.

[cookie5]

I wouldn't worry about the copper! As mentioned more people mess up the gun by scrubbing the barrel to an early death.

[JDBerg]

ARES 150 grain painted led bullets

I Googled “ARES 150 grain painted (lead) bullets”, which sounds to me like you are reloading these bullets which leads to the speculation about using reloads with a Glock polygonal-rifled barrel. I have no idea that these “painted” bullets could be causing the “excessive” fouling problem you described, but it seems to me that You would want to use the cleanest ammo available if you have an “OCD” about preventing excessive fouling in your Glock 17.

[T. O'Heir]

"...my gun is too new to use strong copper solvents..." That's just idiotic. Never ceases to amaze me what nonsense some gun store guys come up with.
"...let it soak a bit..." How much is your 'bit'? Might be too short. Try leaving it to soak longer. Like a half hour or so.
Anhydrous ammonia has no water. 'Anhydrous' means without water. The stuff is extremely toxic.
Ammonia diluted in water is Windex.

[Torre]

Originally Posted by WVsig

I am not sure why people obsess over this. Unless there is a lot of fouling and by a lot I mean a ton you are never going to see a difference in accuracy out of that pistol barrel. You can put a million different chemicals and scrub the crap out of it but as soon as you head to the range and put 50 rounds down that barrel guess what will be back.

COPPER FOULING. LOL

More people damage their barrels by obsessively cleaning them then improve accuracy or longevity IMHO.

How would you damage a barrel by cleaning with brass and patches? (sincere question)

Some people don't wash their cars and they run fine. Like I said I don't mind a dirty gun, but when DO clean it - it concerns me when I can't get it clean.

Originally Posted by FITASC

You certain it is copper?

Not entirely. I have shot some lead bullets through it as well, so it might be that too - just with some copper color stuck on top of it I guess?

Originally Posted by JDBerg

I Googled “ARES 150 grain painted (lead) bullets”, which sounds to me like you are reloading these bullets which leads to the speculation about using reloads with a Glock polygonal-rifled barrel. I have no idea that these “painted” bullets could be causing the “excessive” fouling problem you described, but it seems to me that You would want to use the cleanest ammo available if you have an “OCD” about preventing excessive fouling in your Glock 17.

Hi, I don't reload myself. These are "factory reloads" and I only shot them to see how a heavier bullet feels, I don't usually stock or buy this ammo.

http://www.ipscstore.eu/en/aresammo/...000009469.html

"Surface: CEPRX - Ares casted colour full painted bullets, similar to TMJ"

[101combatvet]

Probably the brush you are using, less would be better. Use a wet patch of Hoppes No. 9 solvent and let it soak in for an hour before using a clean patch, repeat until clean.

[FITASC]

"factory reloads"

??? Some guy in his garage with a Dillon????

Maybe I'm missing something here.....

[WVsig]

Originally Posted by FITASC

??? Some guy in his garage with a Dillon????

Maybe I'm missing something here.....

Maybe something like Freedom Munitions. https://www.freedommunitions.com

There are tons of factory reloading outfits.

[WVsig]

Originally Posted by Torre

How would you damage a barrel by cleaning with brass and patches? (sincere question)

Some people don't wash their cars and they run fine. Like I said I don't mind a dirty gun, but when DO clean it - it concerns me when I can't get it clean.




Not entirely. I have shot some lead bullets through it as well, so it might be that too - just with some copper color stuck on top of it I guess?



Hi, I don't reload myself. These are "factory reloads" and I only shot them to see how a heavier bullet feels, I don't usually stock or buy this ammo.

http://www.ipscstore.eu/en/aresammo/...000009469.html

"Surface: CEPRX - Ares casted colour full painted bullets, similar to TMJ"

Lot of people over the years have ruined barrels with heavy solvents and aggressive cleaning. The biggest problems I see is harming a barrel crown by improperly using a brush.

I guess my point is that in a pistol barrel it doesn't matter in terms of accuracy. If you manage to get the barrel pristine unless you plan on never shooting it again it will be fouled the next time out. I am not saying allow excessive build up but a small amount of copper fouling is nothing to worry about. IMHO YMMV

[Damon555]

Anhydrous ammonia has no water. 'Anhydrous' means without water. The stuff is extremely toxic.
Ammonia diluted in water is Windex.

Remember T......this is the internet....lol. A lot of keyboard experts out there. I helped build our ammonia tank farm and wrote all the procedures for its operation. This stuff is dangerous as you mentioned.....and will bring you to tears with the slightest whiff. We evacuated and purged the tanks when a problem arose. The tanker trucks used as "water scrubbers" were sold as aqueous ammonia for the manufacture of household cleaners such as windex and fertilizer.

To keep this post on topic I will repeat my opinion on ammonia based cleaners.....They work very well on copper fouling......so if it won't get the color out of a barrel it probably isn't copper....

[Dufus]

I assume it's coppar as there is a slight brownish color to it when looking at the muzzle end.

Copper fouling looks like copper....it ain't brownish.

When shooting lead bullets, it is a good idea to clean before switching to jacketed bullets.

I have never seen a barrel "ruined" by cleaning. I ain't talking about match barrels.

I have seen barrels ruined by not cleaning.

It ain't a good idea to use ammonia in a gun barrel. It is very caustic and will eat gun barrels.

I never use an abrasive cleaner in a gun barrel.

I have used Wipe Out Foaming Bore cleaner for a while now. It has never failed to remove large amounts of copper. I use a bore scope to inspect the barrel before and after cleaning. That is how I know a barrel is clean.

The Wipe Out will do nothing other than remove copper. Other cleaners are used to finish the job.

[Damon555]

It ain't a good idea to use ammonia in a gun barrel. It is very caustic and will eat gun barrels.

That is simply not true....more intent hyperbole. The materials used to make many gun barrels are similar to those used in ammonia piping, valve bodies and seats.

[101combatvet]