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Old July 2, 2018, 01:08 PM   #1
bedbugbilly
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1911 versus P08 Luger - some questions - your thoughts?

O.K. . . . I'm old so sometimes I have some strange thoughts go through my mind. For some reason, I found myself thinking about the P08 Luger and so I have some questions that maybe some of you experienced with both the 1911 and the Lugers can answer.

First, I'm an old "revolver" guy and have never owned many semi autos so bear with me.

All one has to do is look at the threads to know the popularity of the 1911 platform. I don't want this to turn in to a debate on which is better, etc. - so let's agree that the M1911 and M1911A1 pistols are great pistols and have transformed in to a number of different 1911 "platforms". It is so good that it has remained popular for 107 years - so it speaks for itself. I have owned one M1911A1 - Colt mfg in 1943 that was brought back by a Navy pilot after WWII. I ended up selling it as it was pristine and with the original issue pistol belt, holster, mag pouch and magazines - it was too much of a "collector's piece" to give it much wear. I was taught how to field strip it blind folded by an old WWII Marine who served in the Pacific so I am aware of the components, etc. and for want of a better word, "simplicity". So we all agree that the 1911 platform is an excellent one.

Now . . . the P08 Luger . . .

My only experience with them is that I have handled three of them . . . well over 50 years ago. One was brought back by a WWI vet that I knew, the others by fathers of a couple of my classmates. One was a very nice one, the other not so nice, it had been run over by tank treads and could shoot around corners probably.

The Luger served the Germans well in both WWI ad WWII. It is chambered in 9mm that even today remains one of the most popular cartridges. All I know of them is this . . .

1. They have a toggle bolt (?)
2. On gunbroker, originals go for a very hefty price
3. I believe Mauser made some in the 1970's ? as I saw a video of one
4. I watched a video on how to field strip one and it looks to be much more difficult than a 1911 - in terms of taking it all the way down - for someone (like me) who isn't familiar with them
5. Stoger made some chambered in 22 rimfire

Other than that, I'm pretty ignorant on them. I know there are dedicated collectors of the Lugers, just like collectors of the 1911s. From some videos I watched, they seem to function and shoot well and to be truthful, I wouldn't mind having one but at my age, I can't justify the price of an original. As a "historic" firearm, I like them as much as a 1911, a SAA, etc.

So . . . my questions, I guess, is that if the 1911 has remained so popular for 107 years, why has the Luger not remained popular . .. or popular enough that someone is not continuing to make them or reproduce them?

I'm guessing that the machining may be a big part of it and the set up cost, production cost, etc. per unit? But again, you have to have a "market" for them to make sales.

Let's face it, there are a lot of plastic guns on the market that are cheaper and that function well and I realize that. Plus, it may be that the "young'uns" (and no offense intended) just don't find them appealing . . . but then there are plenty of younger people who shoot the 1911 platform.

Why is it that the Lugeer didn't retain the appeal of the 1911? I realize that the production cost of them might put them up in a higher price range but there are still many shooters who will spend more money for a high quality pistol - if they like it. And in the case of the Luger, perhaps people just don't like them or the design? Is there a problem with the design?
what "killed" the Luger while the 1911s survived?

I know this is a pistol forum, but I will mention another firearm that has lasted - or I should say design of rifle. I have a 1905 Danzig GEW98 German Mauser that a friend of mine brought back from France in 1919. My friend that gave it to me has been gone for 50 years now but that old 8mm rifle is still shooting my reloads just fine and will still keep on ticking for a long time in the future. The Mauser design has bee copied, duplicated and still continues to have its influence on rifles being produced today.

So . . what are your thoughts on why the 1911s continue on after 107 years but the Lugers fell by the wayside? No arguments please . . . I'm just curious. Thanks.
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Old July 2, 2018, 01:17 PM   #2
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I'm no expert but I think you touched on at least one major reason the 1911 won out in your post. The toggle link vs the tilting barrel. I wonder what it would cost to make a P08 today? In the early 20th century, I suspect skilled machinists hours were cheaper than they are today.


Interesting op.
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Old July 2, 2018, 01:25 PM   #3
Gary L. Griffiths
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While stock GI 1911s are only marginally reliable with hardball ammo, modern 1911 variants are highly reliable with modern premium defensive ammo. My Detonics, some 40 years old now, will reliably feed empty cases!

The Luger, OTOH, has never been more than marginally reliable with FMJ ammo, and has, with few exceptions, performed poorly with modern defensive ammo. While 1911s are still being made and tuned for accuracy and reliability, gunsmithing a Luger to make it reliable can well turn a $1650 collector's firearm into a $500 shooter! That, combined with the fine machining that is no longer available at reasonable cost, is why the Luger pistol has moved into the shady realm of safe queen/collector's item. There have been a couple of attempts, in the '70s and '80s IIRC, to produce a "modern" Luger, but they have largely come to naught.
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Old July 2, 2018, 01:30 PM   #4
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The major knock against the Luger, even when it was still in widespread use, was the cost of manufacture.
There were a lot of machining operations, tolerances were close, and a lot of hand fitting was required.
Most Lugers have the last two digits of the serial number stamped on most major components, to ensure they stay matched.

I think the other problem with the Luger being a long-term success was the toggle mechanism being a dead end.
In the early years of the 20th century, there wasn't much agreement on how a semiautomatic pistol should look, or work.
By the end of WWI, various design elements, like magazines located somewhere other than in the grip frame, had been discarded, and reciprocating slides with internal locking mechanisms became dominant.

And, while some or many may disagree, the whole, "points so naturally it's like pointing your finger at the target" is a huge pile of hooey!
The Luger requires that you bend your wrist unnaturally, the thumb safety is hard to operate (though it could be easily modified to sweep down with the thumb like most modern pistols), and the trigger is usually awful, though that's not uncommon among striker-fired designs.

I have a Luger that I inherited from my dad.
It's what collectors used to call the 1920 Commercial Model, and what is now called the Alphabet Luger because of the serial numbering system.
I had the gun restored with an old-but-better barrel and a trigger job, and it's actually not a bad shooter, if you can get past the ergonomics.

One element of the Luger that still works well is the relatively fixed barrel, which doesn't tilt or rotate, with the front sight attached; Lugers are usually quite accurate.

I think "not invented here" probably worked against the Luger in the U.S., and the 9mm cartridge was not really popular in the U.S. until the 1970s, so the 1911 and the .45 ACP had not only history on its side, but a 50 year head start.

There's a 1911 made on such accurate machinery that they are not only extremely closely toleranced, but they require no fitting.
If there were a market for a new, $5,000+ Luger, that might be the way to go.

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Last edited by RickB; July 2, 2018 at 01:38 PM.
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Old July 2, 2018, 01:33 PM   #5
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Quote:
While stock GI 1911s are only marginally reliable with hardball ammo

One of the major reasons the M1911 was adopted over its competitor from Savage was its having fired 6000 rounds without malfunction or parts breakage.
Stock, G.I. M1911s are reliable and durable in the extreme.
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Old July 2, 2018, 01:35 PM   #6
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A few immediately obvious responses:

Comparatively, the M1911 is a more modern and ultimately more reliable design than the Luger. It was adopted 11 years after the first (Swiss) military Lugers, during a time when semi-automatic pistol design was developing rapidly.

The M1911 was not superseded in US military service by the M9 until almost 50 years after the Luger was superseded by the P.38 in German military service. Thus, many more generations have been exposed to the M1911 design.
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Old July 2, 2018, 02:14 PM   #7
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Lugers can be finicky about ammunition, similar to .22's, you have to find a load/brand of ammo your specific Luger likes, and stick with that or similarly loaded ammo, and they shoot just fine. The reports of Lugers being horribly unreliable are flat out untrue however, if it was as bad as some folks would lead you to believe, there's simply no way it would have served in two world wars.

Being a complicated design, they are in turn expensive to produce. There is a fellow making them in .45 ACP designed from the models submitted to the 1907 pistol trials, last I recall prices were between $5,000 and $6,000.

Starting from the left: a 1920 commercial in the original 7.65X21 Luger, below that is the Stoeger in .22, then an Erma Werke KPG68 in .380(fixed barrel blowback scaled down design), an Erma Werke KPG69 in .22(also scaled down, but not as much as the KPG68), an Interarms Mauser Parabellum in 9mm on the right, and the top one is a BB pistol...
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Old July 2, 2018, 08:04 PM   #8
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A large part of the myth that the luger is unreliable comes from the use of underpowered American made 9 mm ammunition after the wars.

With amminition that matches German military specifications the luger is a very reliable handgun. It requires more cleaning and lubrication due to its greater complexity, but the simple fact that Germany stuck with it even in the face of more modern designs and only changed because it needed a gun that could be made faster and less expensively is telling.

Friend and I once put nearly 700 rounds through his Luger with 0 malfunctions.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
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Old July 2, 2018, 08:52 PM   #9
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Thank you everyone for your kind responses - it has been most enlightening! It was just something that I was thinking about and what you all say makes perfect sense.

As far as more precision fit and tolerances required by the Luger - from what I saw of the video showing the field stripping and take down of one - I can certainly understand that. As far as producing any in today's world - my background was machining when I was in college. We learned on old lend-lease LeBlond lathes and Bridgeport mills, etc. NC was just coming in and the college had purchased a "high tech" vertical mill that was a pneumatic NC machine. I'm sure that it would be a dinosaur today. What I find really interesting is that in this day and age of NC and the newer precision machine tools, a better than WWII era Luger (or any other gun) doesn't seem be able to be produced. Plastics have taken over and I understand all of that. It boils down to $$ an production efficiency. I found the information you folks provided very interesting though and I appreciate the kind responses.

After posting, I remembered a story my Dad always told. When he was a kid - early 1920's, there was a bunch of fellows who liked to go rabbit hunting - about a half dozen guys or so. One had a good beagle and they loved to hunt in the snow. My Dad always told me that he hunted with an old "Zulu shotgun" that and an old nail for a firing pin - I believed him as his Dad and family were very frugal. Anyways, there was one of the fellows that was a WWI vet and all he carried to rabbit hunt was a Luger he had brought back from France. My Dad was always impressed by the guy and his Luger as he would take mor rabbits with the Luger than the others with their shotguns.

I can see why those that like the Lugers are intrigued with them. They certainly have a history and hold a place in history as a result. I can see why Germany changed to making th e P38s, especially when things were clamping down on them. That's another model that I was alway intrigued with but never bought one. I remember as a kid you could buy them for $25 or so . . . but then again, at the same time I mowed many lawns for 50 cents a lawn! LOL

Thanks again for the fine information and thoughts - greatly appreciated!
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Old July 2, 2018, 09:25 PM   #10
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You can get a shooter, 4" barrel, 9mm in descent shape for $700 - $800. I paid $1300 for a 1918 with Nazi proofmark, with 1918 holster and two magazines. When I do my part, it cuts one ragged hole at 15 yards. The trigger feels like you're moving a lot of parts when pressing it back. And it is ammo sensitive, but functions 100% with the right stuff.
But they were replaced by the P38. And they don't hold a candle to a 1911. You can put a 1911 in the mud, stir it around, and it will still fire and function. Don't try that with a Luger. But I still love my Luger, it was a bucket list gun for me, and I already know which kid I'm leaving it too.
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Old July 2, 2018, 09:48 PM   #11
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Unscientific, and sample size of one, but I'm just going to leave this here as they make for an interesting watch.

https://www.full30.com/video/5cb4ce7...f7975b1c548f0b

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09CTiHsshhg
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Old July 2, 2018, 09:53 PM   #12
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I don't know, but I suspect that with the new technology of machining and sintering steel parts, manufacture of the things would become practical. Sure wouldn't be inexpensive, but I believe that it could be done, IF there was enough demand. We can make up beretta and other steel handguns by the hundreds of thousands and it is feasible. making a few thousand replica lugers wouldn't be possible. at a reasonable expense of development and production. Kind of a shame.
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Old July 2, 2018, 10:58 PM   #13
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Mauser made some Parabellums in the 1970s. Somewhat of modern manufacturing was used, I read that the sears were sintered metal of an alloy so hard that Mauser bought diamond files for fitting. They rang the changes of many models, historical and fantastical, but could not make a long time go of it.

There were the stainless American made P08s but they were of erratic quality. Some are said to shoot just fine, some reportedly don't.

Just a few years ago, Kreighoff ran off a couple hundred at a price that would make a Cabot customer think twice. It took them a while to sell out, and I doubt there will be more.
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Old July 2, 2018, 11:32 PM   #14
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I believe reproduction Lugers are so expensive for a couple of reasons. The first is because there are people today that actually think the Luger pistol is a flawed design and is unreliable simply because of the fact that the Germans are famous for using Luger pistols in both WWI and WWII. They actually believe the Germans lost because Lugers were so unreliable. The other reason why they have never taken off is because of their association with the "Nazis".

Even today, there are people that will incorrectly refer to Luger pistols as "Nazi" guns, regardless of when they were made. There are people that will have nothing to do with Lugers because of their believed association with the "Nazis" and no amount of anything will change their minds or convince them that Hitler and, more importantly, the "Nazis" had nothing to do with the development of the Luger pistol or the Germans adopting or using Lugers in WWI. This ignorance severely reduces the market causing limited production and increased price tags.

I also find it humorous how the Luger, which predated WWII by almost 30 years, can still be vilified as a weapon designed by the "Nazis", yet the Walther P.38 that replaced it during their reign, doesn't receive the same level of contempt.

Let's also not forget that the weapon of choice for many fictional baddies, mostly for propaganda reasons, after and during both wars were the Luger and the Walther P.38, or one of many other weapons used by the Axis powers, while the "heroes" usually had their trusty Colt 1911 or some other Allied weapon. So, yes, "not made here" or not made by one of our Allies probably plays a part into people's opinions of them, even to today.

As for whether or not the Luger is a "natural" pointer, IMHO, if I were to close my eyes and point a Luger, with my index finger on the side of the frame with my arm outstretched, I find the "point of aim" to be the same as what ever my finger is pointed at. However, whenever I have tried with a 1911A1, I find the "point of aim" to be lower. I have tried with both flat and arched mainspring housings and had the same results. Again, these results are is in my hand, holding and pointing with one hand with my arm outstretched, like they were originally intended to be fired. Your hands might give you different results, especially if you are trying to use a "modern" two handed grip, which might explain why it doesn't work for you.

Also, if the Luger was as awful as so many would have us believe today, millions would not have been made nor would it have been used by so many different countries.

Another nail in the coffin is that Lugers were never designed to use todays 9mm ammo. What was available when Lugers were originally made would be considered hotter by todays standards. Then there was the rumor that floated around for a few years that "if you "shortened the magazine spring it would make the Luger more reliable with modern ammo." Whether this rumor started because people knew it would make them unreliable , or because they didn't know about the required loading tool and did it just to make loading their magazines easier is unknown. Regardless their intentions, countless original Luger magazine were forever ruined and the myth of Luger pistols being unreliable only increased.

As far as field stripping goes, I've always found the Luger to be quicker and easier. Sometimes the side plate can be tricky to reattach if not aligned properly but at least it's harder to lose than the plug for the recoil spring if your finger slips. There's also no chance of the dreaded "idiot mark" that has afflicted many a 1911, since the takedown lever doesn't have to be removed on a Luger like the slide stop does on a 1911.
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Old July 3, 2018, 07:31 AM   #15
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As others have said, the Luger functioned just fine. The P38 was a more modern double-action design. They were produced at the same time for a while. The problem with the Luger was that it took more time and careful machining to produce. As the war went on, Germany couldn't afford that luxury.

I think plenty of us would buy a brand-new Luger as a range toy, if they cost $300-something. Closer to $1,000 and the buyers aren't exactly lining up at the door.

The 1911 is apparently cheaper and easier to manufacture. It's easy to buy brand-new ones that are perfectly functional for $300-something. My FiL, stepbrother, and myself all bought brand-new ones in that price range. They all work just fine.
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Old July 3, 2018, 07:40 AM   #16
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In the past (I sold it as soon as the novelty wore off) I have owned a "shooter" Luger for a time and found that the toggle was way harder to operate than my 1911's which begs the question for me: If I was wounded otherwise impaired on a battlefield, could I still operate the toggle on a Luger or would I be better off with a 1911? For us civilians, that may not be much of an issue but it may have been for WWII soldiers.
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Old July 3, 2018, 07:53 AM   #17
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Thank you, ttarp, for the mud test video. Obviously I'm a victim of the old wives tales that plague the gun culture. Common sense would tell me, close tolerances would keep crud out.
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Old July 3, 2018, 08:09 AM   #18
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An interesting aside on the state of American-made 9mm Luger ammunition.

In 1939, during the run up to the war, the British were in desperate need of guns during their rearmament phase, so they approached Smith & Wesson with $1 million and said "design us a light rifle chambered in 9mm Luger."

S&W designers produced the M1940 Light Rifle, made to all the old world traditions of gun design -- expensive machining from billets, high polish finishing, hot bluing, etc. The only way S&W stepped outside the box was to use a then modern thermoplastic for the stock.

While the ejection cycle was a bit cumbersome (down a tube behind the magazine), the gun functioned extremely well in testing.

Then the British showed up to do their own testing.

And brought their own 9mm Luger ammunition.

Loaded to European pressure standards.

And all hell broke loose. Or, at least the M1940 broke.

S&W had used, IIRC, Western 9mm Luger ammo to develop the gun, and British military ammo, which matched German 9mm ballistics, was a lot more potent.

Most of the Light Rifles tested by the British broke -- badly -- in fewer than 1,000 rounds.

S&W tried again with another design, the Mk II. It wasn't much, if any, better.

The British were pissed. REALLY pissed, and more than a little desperate. By now the British Expeditionary Force had been throw out of Europe, and the need for weapons was acute.

The Brits wanted their $1 million back. Only problem is, S&W had spent it all developing the Light Rifle, and coming out of the depression, didn't have it. That $1 million would have thrown S&W into bankruptcy.

Enter Carl Hellstrom, then a mid-level executive at S&W. He negotiated a deal with the British by which S&W would provide $1 million worth of revolvers chambered in British standard .380 revolver cartridge.

The British agreed, and eventually placed substantial additional orders, as did the United States.

S&W saved, democracy saved, and a very valuable lesson learned.
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Old July 3, 2018, 08:11 AM   #19
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Back in the 1990s Mitchell Arms was importing Luger recreations from, I believe, the Philippines.

We sold a couple out of the shop at which I was working at the time. They were uniformly pretty damned unreliable.
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Old July 3, 2018, 08:21 AM   #20
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"Another nail in the coffin is that Lugers were never designed to use todays 9mm ammo. What was available when Lugers were originally made would be considered hotter by todays standards."

The standard 9mm Luger ammunition adopted by NATO runs to about 36,000 PSI as measured by pizoelectrics.

WW I/WW II German standard ammunition, as well as British WW II standard ammunition, ran to very similar pressures.

American-manufactured ammunition in the 1920s and 1930s, however, was quite different. While I don't have firm figures on this, supposedly Remington, Peters, and Western kept their 9mm ammo to between 27,000-30,000 PSI.

That matches a time-honored, and very weird, US tradition of downloading European military ammunition significantly.

Post WW I, when there were a significant number of both 7mm and 8mm Mauser-chambered rifles available, American companies loaded rounds than robbed anywhere from 15 to 25 percent of the round's potential.

It's as if American companies didn't think anyone in Europe could build a safe gun...
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Old July 3, 2018, 08:41 AM   #21
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If you shoot at an indoor range, hot brass flies straight up and hits the ceiling and ricochets straight down and hits your head.

Sometimes the brass ricochets down and gets inside you shirt... hot hot hot!

Once a case got inside the top of my shooting glasses and burned my cheek.

Wear a wide brimmed hat at the indoor range.
Don’t use lane 3 as the brass hits the light over the top of that lane. By luck, the lightbulb was not hit or glass would have rained down and the boys will never let you forget it.

With some practice and experimentation, angle the gun clockwise enough to ricochet the brass over the divider to hit your buddy in the next lane.

My dad passed two old beaters off to me saying “these are kind of interesting for a day or two... you take ‘em.” They were interesting for a couple of days then I sold them without ever a shread of regret.

If you can rent or borrow one for 50 rounds, it’s interesting.
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Old July 3, 2018, 09:10 AM   #22
Jim Watson
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I remember when a quantity of S&W Light Rifles turned up on the collector's market.
They got a C&R status and exemption from the SBR regulations. A local S&W expert got one each Mk I and Mk II. They were in pristine condition, apparently unfired and unworn. He sat on them until the value climbed and used the profit to finance more of the large frame top-breaks he was really interested in.

Of course the British accepted revolvers in lieu of PCCs and stamped out cheap STENs as wartime expedient infantry weapons. I once read that early days, the STENs got loaded with captured Italian 9mm ammo until British, Canadian, and US suppliers got going.
I do know that Canadian 9mm was of good quality. I bought all the "9MM 43" I could afford and my Luger never missed a beat.
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Old July 3, 2018, 09:39 AM   #23
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"I once read that early days, the STENs got loaded with captured Italian 9mm ammo until British, Canadian, and US suppliers got going."

I've heard that story before.

It's cute, but it's also mostly wrong.

Britain began developing submachine guns in earnest after the start of the War. Prior to that they had been purchasing limited numbers of Thompsons from America, but the supply wasn't great enough, especially after the Dunkirk evacuation in June 1940.

Britain began manufacturing 9mm ammunition to support domestic development of submachine guns (the Lanchester and the Sten) and also the expected Light Rifle from America, early on through contracts let through commercial companies such as Kynoch.

But, to bridge the gap until British factories could produce in quantity, the British relied on American and Canadian ammo and also purchased 30 million rounds of 9mm from Bolivia.

One story I've heard is that after adoption of the Lanchester and the Sten the British shipped all that 9mm ammo from North Africa to Britain and that's what fed Stens and Lanchesters.

Bogus.

What 9mm ammo -- Italian and German -- that was captured in North Africa ended up being used in North Africa. British troops were especially fond of the Italian Beretta Modello 38 submachine gun, and were very happy to use the German MP 38 and MP 40, as well.

Stens didn't really start showing up in the Desert War in any quantity until it was largely over. By far the most used British submachine gun in the Desert War was the American Thompson.

It's silly to think that the British would have shipped that Italian and German 9mm ammo back to Britain when troops were finding a use for it in the Desert, and also when shipping resources were at such an incredible premium at the time.


Here's a pretty good page on British small arms ammunition in general, with this specifically being about 9mm: https://sites.google.com/site/britmi...arabellum-ball
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Old July 3, 2018, 09:58 AM   #24
Jim Watson
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Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 18,487
Well darn, another legend debunked.

Roy Dunlap said in 'Ordnance Went Up Front' that everybody on both sides liked the Beretta SMGs. He had some funny ideas about the power of Italian 9mm, though.

Phil Sharpe said, pre WWII, the "working pressure" of 9mm P was about 30000 psi (crusher, of course.) His top jacketed bullet load was actually slightly lower velocity than the original ammo tested here in 1903. Maybe American companies didn't want anything to challenge the .38 Auto/Super.
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Old July 3, 2018, 10:03 AM   #25
Mike Irwin
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Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 41,374
"He had some funny ideas about the power of Italian 9mm, though."

Remember that the Italians were using TWO 9mm cartridges at the time -- the 9mm Glisenti and the 9mm Luger.

The Glisenti was dimensionally identical to the 9mm Luger but was significantly less powerful.

The Beretta M1918 in 9mm Gliesenti did see some service in the Western Desert, as did Glisenti handguns, so it's very likely that stocks of 9mm Glisenti ammo were captured along with 9mm Luger.

Likely the British, and later Americans, didn't realize the difference between the rounds and assumed that the Glisenti ammo was simply poorly quality controlled 9mm Luger ammo .
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