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Old July 18, 2018, 10:40 AM   #26
Josh Smith
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Originally Posted by AGTMan
Your hard-earned discretionary $$$$ are better spent on some form of M1 Garand - 30.06 or .308/7.62 ... take your pick.

Always good policy to avoid Commie junk when possible.

You can thank me later.
The Mosin-Nagant can be more accurate than the Garand. While the Garand is a great rifle, it was designed for a cartridge of lesser power than it ended up with.

It's more complicated and, by its nature, more fragile than the Mosin-Nagant.

It's all in what you're looking for in a rifle.

The Garand has it all over the Mosin for volume of fire, of course, and I'd choose it for a firefight.

If, however, I were going to be depending on a rifle with a minimum of supply and maintenance, it would most definitely be the Mosin-Nagant.

The Mosin is accurate/can be made accurate to better than 1moa for good examples.

The Mosin is not ammunition sensitive.

The Mosin isn't clip dependent.

The Mosin will run longer, on less, than will the Garand.

Again, it's all about the right tool for the job. Oftentimes that's a semi-auto; many times it's an old-design bolt rifle.

Regards,
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Old July 18, 2018, 10:45 AM   #27
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Old July 18, 2018, 12:28 PM   #28
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Yeah there is lots of cheap surplus ammo. Thats what it is, cheap surplus ammo. Not what I would want in a "shooter"
I don't often disagree with Kraig, but this is really no longer the case, and hasn't been for some time. The days of $40 440 round spam cans are long gone, just like the days of $70 91/30s. Cheap blasting ammo is about the same price as .308 any more.

To the OP's question, what is it you are looking for?

I am a big fan of Mosins, but for the historical artifact that they are, not because they are awesome rifles. If you are wanting the Mosin as an inexpensive way to get a hunting rifle, you are probably better off holding out for a modern rifle, like a Savage Axis, Remington 700 SPS or Ruger American.

Mosins are generally not all that accurate by modern standards, although some can be made to shoot quite well with careful handloading and rifle tuning, the same way the Soviets did.

If you are planning on using it as a base for a sporter hunting rifle, add the price of the stock, scope mount (plus the labor to install it) and any other stuff you want to do, you will be well over the cost of the entry level modern rifles, and the new guns will be a better rifle in pretty much every measurable way.

It will be lighter, more accurate, have a better trigger, be set up for a scope from the factory, and will shoot a caliber that ammo is available off the shelf at your local sporting goods store/Wal mart. Manufacturing technology and metallurgy has come a long way in the last 70-125 years.

The days of modifying a military rifle to a sporter as a more economical way of getting a quality hunting rifle are gone. This made a lot of sense when they were a fraction of the price of the bottom of the line Remington or Winchester, and could be found by the barrel full in the local hardware store for $10. Those days are long gone.

If you want a shootable piece of history, that took part in at least one World War (possibly two), then Mosins remain the most inexpensive way to get a historic rifle, even at current prices.
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Old July 18, 2018, 02:45 PM   #29
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The Mosin-Nagant can be more accurate than the Garand. While the Garand is a great rifle, it was designed for a cartridge of lesser power than it ended up with.
That is downright nonsensical.

The Garand is a semi auto vs a bolt would be the first major difference.

Both calibers it was designed/used with are more powerful than the Russian .62 x 54.

Of course some MN can be more accurate, but on the average and particularly for a semi autyo, the Garand was something else above and beyond.

All of which is irrelevant about MNs.
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Old July 18, 2018, 03:33 PM   #30
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Both calibers it was designed/used with are more powerful than the Russian .62 x 54.
What?

The 7.62X54R is essentially equivalent to the .30-06.

The Soviet 1908 load was a 147gr FMJ @ 27-2800FPS, depending on barrel length, and the post war Warsaw Pact light ball was similar, but had a boat tailed bullet rather than the flat base of the earlier round.

For comparison, the M1906 was a 150 gr bullet at 2700FPS, with the later M2 ball ~100 FPS faster.

The .30-06 could be loaded to a slightly higher pressure, but the ammunition produced for both over the service life was for all practical purposes equal.

The .276 Pederson was (according to Hatcher) a 125gr bullet @ 2700 FPS.

So neither are more powerful, and one is considerably less so.
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Old July 18, 2018, 03:41 PM   #31
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It's more complicated and, by its nature, more fragile than the Mosin-Nagant.
"More complicated"? ... Only because the M1 Garand is an en bloc clip-fed 8-shot semi-auto.

"More fragile"? Not at all.

The M1 performed exceptionally well during the 'Frozen Chosin' Reservoir engagements which occurred in worse winter weather than you'd typically find in Siberia. Malfunctions, which were quite small percentage-wise (per # of M1s in action in Korea), were traced to lack of cleaning, not weather conditions. ***

Quote:
The Mosin-Nagant can be more accurate than the Garand.
Your "can be" assertion is meaningless.

Rifle against rifle (as issued, not tricked-out), the Garand had, and arguably still has, the best and most repeatably accurate iron-sights of any battle rifle issued anywhere in the world.

The M1's aperture sight system makes it inherently more accurate than your average Mosin, which sports the type of antiquated iron sights that only a conscripted serf could be ordered to love.

*** Per 1952 Army report on 'Infantry Weapons in Korea': http://thegca.org/wp-content/uploads...52-reduced.pdf

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Old July 18, 2018, 04:47 PM   #32
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Thanks for the help. Not looking for a looking for hunting rifle. As stated... want a piece of history and able to shoot it was in while. Which is why I chose the MN. Still want one, just looking to see where I can possibly get one for less. At Cabela's, there are about 6 all at $350. Won't get those, but nice "inspect" those rifles.
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Old July 18, 2018, 08:17 PM   #33
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If you're going to spend that much on a Nagant, get a Finn.
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Old July 18, 2018, 09:28 PM   #34
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Just had to chime in on this and agree with a few of the most recent posters here. I own 7 Garands and two Nagants... comparing the two rifles is truly apples and oranges. Both have pluses and minuses as all rifles do, but the Garand is truly a work of art from a design perspective. Nothing against the Nagant... I like shooting mine although neither of them is apparently tuned and in as good a shape as Smiths. Not saying they are not an accurate rifle, but they are an entirely different rifle and not even close to the class the Garand is in. Just my subjective personal opinion of course :-)
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Old July 18, 2018, 10:48 PM   #35
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"More complicated"? ... Only because the M1 Garand is an en bloc clip-fed 8-shot semi-auto.
That's the point.

Quote:
"More fragile"? Not at all.
There's this thing called an op rod...

Quote:
The M1 performed exceptionally well during the 'Frozen Chosin' Reservoir engagements which occurred in worse winter weather than you'd typically find in Siberia. Malfunctions, which were quite small percentage-wise (per # of M1s in action in Korea), were traced to lack of cleaning, not weather conditions. ***
... lack of cleaning...

Quote:
Your "can be" assertion is meaningless.
Not when it only takes a couple shims and a cork pad to get there, it's not.

Quote:
Rifle against rifle (as issued, not tricked-out), the Garand had, and arguably still has, the best and most repeatably accurate iron-sights of any battle rifle issued anywhere in the world.
Finnish M27, M28, M39... Swiss K31...

Look: If you replaced "battle rifle" with "semi-automatic battle rifle," you'd have something. The Garand is better at volume fire, but the rest of it, no. The bolt actions are simply more rugged. I don't care if you're talking about the 1903, the Arisaka, the M98 Mauser, etc... you're still going to have a more rugged, simple, robust design in a bolt action.

At the time, the Garand beat out the other semi-auto rifles in all categories, yes.

If I wanted volume fire, I'd grab the Garand, yes.

If I didn't expect to be able to clean the rifle regularly or count on resupply, I'd go with the Mosin.

Regards,
Josh
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Old July 18, 2018, 10:57 PM   #36
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That is downright nonsensical.
Not in the parameters introduced by AGTMan.

Quote:
The Garand is a semi auto vs a bolt would be the first major difference.
Agreed. I dunno why AGTMan threw a semi-auto into a bolt action discussion, but he did and I ran with it.

Quote:
Both calibers it was designed/used with are more powerful than the Russian .62 x 54.
Czech 147grn ball clocks at 3,000fps in 7.62x54r. The Garand .30-06 runs a 150grn bullet at 2,600 to 2,700fps.

Quote:
Of course some MN can be more accurate,
Correct. Again, I dunno why the Garand was brought up for comparison.

Quote:
but on the average and particularly for a semi autyo, the Garand was something else above and beyond.
It sure was. I love the Garand!

Quote:
All of which is irrelevant about MNs.
The Mosin-Nagant had its own charm and strengths. It's about the right tool for the job in the right setting... and that's all I was pointing out.

Regards,
Josh
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Old July 19, 2018, 12:51 AM   #37
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The Mosin is a fine gun if you're looking for a somewhat collectible piece of history that is fun to shoot once in a while (well, it's fun if you like being donkey kicked in the shoulder every time you pull the trigger on one lol).

Pre-war examples tend to be built better. Many Mosins suffer from a very difficult bolt after firing and the triggers really aren't great. The sights aren't great either and they tend to shoot high (up to a foot or so above point of aim). But a lot of these issues can be fixed depending on how much time you want to put in to it. They're pretty cool if you think of them like a more modern, bolt action musket. The fireball and muzzle report is pretty impressive, especially out of the carbine models.

I start to get a pretty good headache after shooting 50 or so rounds from mine on a bench. It's a combination of recoil, poor stock fit, and concussion that does it to me.

If you're interested in getting one, I'd say go for it. Do a little research on different models and years to make sure you get a decent price. Price seems to only be going up on these, if you take care of it you can probably expect to get what you paid out of it if you decide you want to sell it later.
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Old July 19, 2018, 08:46 AM   #38
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I would agree, that price is very high. Granted, I got into the Mosin game even after they were no longer cheap, but mine was a pristine subject at $200 from a local place. If you are looking for the cheapest avenue, go to a gun show. They won't have a whole crate of them for $50 a pop anymore, but you will probably find some cheaper than $300, maybe even $200. Just check the stock for cracks, the chamber and bore for rust/pitting, and the bolt for any other schtuff.

They are a fun piece of history to have, though, as everyone else has said, get ready for some fireworks and all the recoil your heart desires.
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Old July 19, 2018, 11:25 AM   #39
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I like my Mosin, but there is no way its more accurate then the Garand, or worse, the Springfield.

Its simple to find out. The CMP has ventage rifle matches. Catagories are: Garand, Springfield, Militaray (all other pre 1955 military rifles) and Modern rifle.

The Modern Rifle Catagory is post 1955 military rifles and this catagory is dominated by the ARs.

But as to the others, the Scores are much higher in the Garand Catagory, Higher yet in the Springfield. The Military catogory, where the Mosin is used, from what I've seen is dominated by the US Model 1917 and the Swiss Rifles.

But again, I like my Mosin. When I first got it, it shot 7 inches high at 100 yards. I milled off the bottom of the rear sight where it sets lower on the sight base so as it would be zeroed at 100 yards when the sight was set on the 100 Meter setting. I've only shot it to 400 yards, to confirm the sight marks on the rear sight match the yardage I shoot. Since they match to 400 yards I have no doubts they will match the higher elevation settings.

As I said earlier, I wont use surplus ammo in my Mosin ( or any other rifle except for the M2 ball I get from the CMP.)

What shoots best as to factory ammo is the Winchester 174 gr ammo. I load 174s to the same velocity as the Winchester stuff ( a bit over 2400 fps) and its accurate in my rifle.

If one needed a cheap but good rifle to feed his family (as thousands do in Siberia and Western Alaska) the Mosin would suit that purpose. Also the Mosin allows just about anyone to be able to afford to shoot competition using it in the Military catagory of the CMP GSM matches.

I havent priced Mosins my self, I paid $99 for mine. But reading here and other places the prices are quite a bit higher. Some times exceeding the price of commerical rifles such as the Ruger American, which may replace the cheap rifle for those only needing to feed their family.

I paid less for my RAPs then I'm seeing people quoting Mosin prices. I can easly see something like the RAP in 223 replacing the Mosin and other rifles on the Bering sea of Alaska, esp since the natives can often get ammo from the NG (If they have the right commander).

Somewhere I have a picture of a Guard Member (native) shooting caribou with a guard M1C sniper rifle.

I dont need my Mosin to feed my family, I have too many other rifles for that. I orginaly got it because as a CMP MI, I thought I should know how to use it if I'm going to instruct clinic where the shooters would be using the Mosin.

I've found I enjoy shooting it. But contrary to some of the post I've read, its not more accurate then the Garand or Springfields. As a hunting rifle, at reasonable ranges using good ammo, it will do the trick.

Plus you have the bayonet if you want to shuskabob your catch.
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Old July 19, 2018, 12:07 PM   #40
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Kraig,

It's not going to be more accurate than a Springfield, no.

If you take a properly fitted Mosin and a properly fitted Springfield, I'd expect them to be very close.

I've never seen a service Garand that is as accurate/precise than any bolt action in comparable condition.

The Garand is easier to shoot well.

I suspect many here are confusing accuracy with precision. I submit as evidence all the discussion of the peep sight on the Garand, which has nothing to do with mechanical precision.

Another issue is ammo: The Mosin's rifling twist was designed for heavy ball, about 175grn to 212grn projectiles.

With the switch to the light ball rounds in, what was it, 1908(?) the rifling was still held at 1:9.5".

Worse, a lot of that ammo was held to 4moa. If I recall correctly, the original 212grn was held to 1.5moa. We're talking about the ammo's precision here, from a test barrel.

When the Mosins were refurbished, they got stocks swapped, parts swapped, shims lost, etc. Though the Russians never shimmed their Mosins to the degree the Finns did, they did do some shimming, especially of the sniper conversions.

The Garand is a really nice battle rifle. There are things I'd change on it, mostly making it closer to an M1a sold commercially today.

The Mosin is so friggin' easy to drop parts in, there's no reason not to. Most of the accuracy stuff done to Mosins is completely reversible, and more, it's very inexpensive to do.

There's just no reason NOT to have a Mosin, one that functions correctly, is 2.5moa capable or much better, and is ergonomic.

Regards,
Josh
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Old July 19, 2018, 12:18 PM   #41
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Here:

https://gunstreamer.com/watch/smith-...eASI9FOB4.html
(I need to redo this video for better quality.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dQpY9muGj8
(Customer of mine a few years ago; he wanted to see what he could get out of the Mosin-Nagant.)

Regards,
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Old July 20, 2018, 12:10 PM   #42
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Finnish sniper Simo Hayha is supposed to be the highest scoring sniper with something like 550 kills against the Red Army during the Russo-Finnish Winter War, 1939/1940. All in less than 100 days and all with iron sights.

Nicknamed "White Death" he mostly used a Finnish, Civil Guard issue Sako built MN/ 28-30 although also a Suomi SMG and sometimes in temps as low as minus 40 F!

The M/28-30 was known as "Pystykorva" after the Spitz dog because of the protective ears that stuck up along side the front sight.
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Old July 21, 2018, 05:29 PM   #43
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I think I had 6 Mosin Nagants at one time. Bought them when they were less than $100 a piece. Had a LOT of ammo. Every time I saw it with free shipping I bought another case. Those crates are good to stand on to clean the roof of my truck!

I know I made some people mad, but one of them got cut short and I made it into a Carbine. Two others got the aftermarket stock which lets me have detachable mags, and yes, they work just fine.

For cheap guns back then, why not cut them up and make something cool out of them? I'm not from Russia, they have no value to me, like a Garand would.

Buy what you like and do what you like with it!
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Old July 21, 2018, 07:55 PM   #44
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I know I made some people mad, but one of them got cut short and I made it into a Carbine. * * * For cheap guns back then, why not cut them up and make something cool out of them? I'm not from Russia, they have no value to me, like a Garand would.
Some folks have 'standard' Garands, and some folks have "cut-down" Garand "carbines," called Mini-Gs.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XlYJacucucQ

The standard M1s are fun and accurate and obviously Match-legal, while the Mini-Gs are fun and accurate and handy in the woods, or as a "truck gun."

I have both types and they serve different uses, like having a bag of golf clubs.
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Old July 21, 2018, 09:17 PM   #45
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This thread went crazier than the monthly AR vs. Mini-14 thread. The Garand and M-N are just two completely different rifles.

I should have bought a couple when they were cheap. My bud tried to talk me into doing that but I didn't. For the price asked for the rifle the OP found I would spend a little more and just get a Mauser 98. They can still be had for $350-500 on GB. I had one I bought from AIM surplus a few years ago for about $200 IIRC and bought a spam can of ammo.

And yes it kicked. A lot. I didn't like the weight either. It was not a gun I would have carried in the woods. At the range was fine and I suspect a M-N would be the same way for me. So I gave up on military surplus rifles.

But I do like the idea of a rugged, dependable gun in the military fashion because just in case there is some societal collapse I want a rifle that will last and not break down on me. I ended up with a Ruger MK II in 30-06 that cost me $425 about 4 years ago. And its a shooter. Is it military rifle strong? probably not but it serves the purpose I wanted it for.

But there is just something special about owning a gun that may have been carried through a war. Maybe saved a soldiers life. No matter what side he fought on. He didn't start the war. He was just a product of the stupidity of politicians.
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Old July 23, 2018, 01:12 PM   #46
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The M1 performed exceptionally well during the 'Frozen Chosin' Reservoir engagements which occurred in worse winter weather than you'd typically find in Siberia. Malfunctions, which were quite small percentage-wise (per # of M1s in action in Korea), were traced to lack of cleaning, not weather conditions.
It did perform magnificently. I do have to point out that Chosin was unusual, Siberia and Russia -40 c/f is common and much worse on an off all winter long. We saw -50 and worse often in interior AK and Siberia is worse.

JS: Well the issue is when you need fire power, do you want to be struggling with a single shot or a very reliable Semi Auto?

Accuracy from an MN is a crap shoot. Accuracy from an M1 or a 1903 (or a 1917) was guaranteed to be no worse than spec.

The reason Russians armed huge numbers of troops with machine guns and semi auto was the need for fire power.

Make the tolerance loose enough and a semi auto does fine in -40 as well. Called SKS and AK-47. not that accurate. But they do throw a lot of bullets.
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Old July 23, 2018, 05:23 PM   #47
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I spent about 20 years with the AK NG, a good deal of it as an XO then a CO of a Native Guard company. It often got to 60 below and colder. I jumped into Galena when it was 68 Below.

Its retavely easy to keep gas guns dry. On you keep them outside so they dont sweat going from the warm tent to the sub zero air.

Second you keep then totally dry. We use dry cleaning solvent to clean them, After a couple shots they warm up and you can add a bit of light oil (Law).

When the shooting is done you clean all the oil off again.

This goes not only for the M1 which we used for Sniper rifles but the M16s as well.
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Old July 23, 2018, 06:32 PM   #48
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I spent about 20 years with the AK NG, a good deal of it as an XO then a CO of a Native Guard company. It often got to 60 below and colder. I jumped into Galena when it was 68 Below.
Frankly I can't imagine that. I spent plenty of time outside at more than -40, but no wind. I think the coldest I ever could confirm was -72 (Northway) - we went outside for about 15 minutes just to say we did. The Military used to come down there from Wainwright to field test cold weather gear. Lots of fun for us.

The funniest one was one of the Airborne divisions (or part) jumping into Wainwrights.

The fellers were dressed to the max, it was warmer in Fairbanks than it was in (North/South Carolina?)

No one seemed to have thought to check the AK weather, good for -80 gear and we were in the 40s.

Pretty bewildered looking group.
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Old July 24, 2018, 06:51 AM   #49
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Its retavely easy to keep gas guns dry. On you keep them outside so they dont sweat going from the warm tent to the sub zero air. Second you keep then totally dry. We use dry cleaning solvent to clean them, After a couple shots they warm up and you can add a bit of light oil (Law).
Yeah, over the years I've become convinced that semis generally, and the M1 in particular, will run just fine in very cold weather if you've prepped them for it.

Plus, nowadays we got all kinds of special "arctic-rated" ultra-low-temp lubes for semi-auto rifles that weren't around even 20-yrs ago, let alone at the Frozen Chosin or the Bulge.

Quote:
This goes not only for the M1 which we used for Sniper rifles but the M16s as well.
Applies to your basic hunting rifle too if you have a season at deer camp where winter hits early. That happened to up once. We got hit with 3- or 4-days of hard snow fall, high wind, and wind-chill temps. Our rifles were already zero-ed so we left them and the ammo outside (and covered) but never brought them in. Only one guy had an issue and that was a failure to fire to due an oil-coated firing pin because he hadn't stripped the bolt and and de-lubed everything internally.
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Old July 26, 2018, 12:06 PM   #50
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Mosin Nagant

I’m from Finland and have shot in -30 degrees C many times. No problems. Ice melts. As far as the gun goes, summertime sand is a bigger problem. AK, SKS, AR, FAL - all work.

Ice or snow in the magazines is the huge problem!!!





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