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Old April 26, 2010, 10:54 PM   #26
Terry A
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Our department has 6 Remington 870's. All the other local police departments that surround us also have 870's. I've never heard of any of the ones we have failing in any way. Granted, they are not shot every day, but each has thousands of rounds thru them from years on the qualification range as well as when they're shot for practice. The ones we have are pretty reliable. They are cleaned and taken care of like newborn babes! I used to read nothing but good things about the 870, but it seems that more & more threads like this and word of mouth is saying that reliability is not what it once was.

That being said, I could never figure out why more departments didn't go with Benelli, which, in my opinion, is the best shotgun for combat. Mossburg would be my 2nd choice, followed by Remington.
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Old April 26, 2010, 11:41 PM   #27
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Police departments normally use the 870 Police (not the express). The 870 Police is a very fine pump shotgun indeed. Reason? Excellent quality control. The express models just aren't what they used to be...and it's a shame because the 870 is so iconic for Reminton.
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Old April 27, 2010, 12:27 AM   #28
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You can't deny the math...cuz it's right...afterall, I am the mathman for a reason.
Even if your math is correct, it does not follow that Remington's QC is down.....there are more than one reason for reported failures, one of which as I mentioned is improper storage

Quote:
Police departments normally use the 870 Police (not the express). The 870 Police is a very fine pump shotgun indeed. Reason? Excellent quality control.
Do you know what the difference is?


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Old April 27, 2010, 12:28 AM   #29
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That being said, I could never figure out why more departments didn't go with Benelli,

Simply becasue Benelli pumps are not as ergo friendly as the 870.

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Old April 27, 2010, 12:48 AM   #30
.300 Weatherby Mag
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It's not just the express models that show signs of poor QC... I bought two brand new wingmasters that did not work... Even after sent being sent back to Remington, functioning was still not 100%... After working on them my self and getting some advice from a gunsmith they now run as an 870 should... For what a wingmaster costs, they should work out of the box...
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Old April 27, 2010, 02:16 AM   #31
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I am getting a headache from all the people who have no clue, but seem to think that youtube is one hundred percent believable. and that all gun makers are out to rip off the buyers.


For crying out loud, did you pull the barrel and drop a shell in the chamber, did it slide out or hang up. If it hangs up, its the chamber, if it slides right out its the extractor or the bolt.

Trouble shooting used to be something Dad's taught their son's, Now, I am not that sure.

keep breaking down the problem or issue until you find something where it works one way or it doesn't, then figure out what is causing that.

Did you take the gun down and clean and oil all the parts before you went to the range. Did you put it back together again correctly?

The internals of the 870 are pretty darned elegant. there is not a lot of extra stuff in there.
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Old April 27, 2010, 03:30 AM   #32
Dave McC
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Yeah, I kinda wonder what has happened to us. I'm certainly no smith, but I can troubleshoot most of my arms.

Mathman, I'm no whiz at your field of expertise, but if I try 20 Expresses with a 10% dud rate, 2 of them should have glitched. None did.

Maybe I just have, after 50 years, good 870 Karma.

Or maybe I'm just really, really, lucky.

This BB needs sarcastic and skeptical smilies.....
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Old April 27, 2010, 06:33 AM   #33
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Fwiw- I saw two brand new Express 870's fail. One went back to Remington and still fails. One was sold at a gunshow. They were both cleaned and properly assembled.
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Old April 27, 2010, 07:49 AM   #34
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I have owned four (4) Express 12ga 870s, and all had intermittant issues extracting Winchester bulk pack field ammo, a few had issues extracting any form of Federal bulk pack field ammo, and none had issues with any brand of premium ammo or the Remington bulk pack ammo. Folk that handload or run STS/AA shotshells thru their Expresses will likely never see an issue.

I can tell you without fear of contradiction, because I have the gauge to measure it, that Winchester and Federal bulk pack/promo 12ga shotshell bases are oversized from the factory. THEY ARE OUT OF SPEC. Everyone should also note that the bulk pack and cheap field ammo are also steel-base hulls and not brass base (no matter the color of the base - the brass looking ones are simply brass plated steel). The steel bases tend to need oversized chambers whereas the (proper?) brass base hulls do not.

Could Remington make their chamber a wee bit bigger, like Mossy, to make it run the cheap crap ammo more reliably? Sure. Do I know why Remington doesn't simply address this during manufacturing? I don't have any idea, dood.. But I would wager a guess that they would state that they provide in-spec chambers...

Quote:
You know what was going through my mind when all this happened?

SOMEONE COULD DIE IF THEY TRUSTED THIS GUN.

It is not a joke and we are not Remington's quality control team. You don't get to knowingly put out garbage and then get a chance to "make it right".

It is criminal negligence.
No - what would constitute negligence is buying a defensive arm and then not shooting it enough to understand what it does/does not do. Buying a sporting arm and then claiming that 'someone could die' doesn't make a lot of sense, unless you think that the doves are gonna swarm you and peck you to death.

If you don't want to fix it yourself, just send it back to Remington and tell them to fix it.
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Old April 27, 2010, 09:15 AM   #35
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Quote:
Do you know what the difference is?
Yes, I know the difference between a Police model and an Express model. It's not just QC, there are some parts that are machined instead of MIM.

Quote:
Mathman, I'm no whiz at your field of expertise, but if I try 20 Expresses with a 10% dud rate, 2 of them should have glitched. None did.
This is a reasonable assumption...although it doesn't always work out like we expect. (I won't bore you with the details, but we are dealing with the binomial distribution.)

The fact is that it seems many folks are having some trouble with expresses.
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Old April 27, 2010, 10:37 AM   #36
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The basic fact is remington has been having quality control issues for several years. A long term fault in their buisness model done by the penny pinchers. The fix's to most new remington guns are easy and are being done by the new owners. Ammo choice is some of the issue, but older 870's and most new guns will shoot this cheap ammo all day without a issue. I still have several Remingtons in the safe and that is not going to change. I have been thinking about adding a new 750 carbine 35 whelan
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Old April 27, 2010, 12:38 PM   #37
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guntotin fool,

Don't know if you're talking to me or not... But these two wingmasters are the 4th and 5th 870 I've owned... I think I have a clue on how they work ... The action would stick about halfway open after firing a round.. And was not short shucking it... The chambers were beautiful in each of these guns... It was not ammo or me, it was a number of various internal issues with the action that was causing it to stick... Yes I cleaned and oiled them before firing and I know it was put back together correctly... I am a very capable trouble shooter... After taking the guns apart, it took me a while to figure out what was going on... Being new guns, I felt that before I did anything that required me to file anything or polish parts, I better send it back... I did and what I got back still did not function 100%...

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Old April 27, 2010, 05:06 PM   #38
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Remington builds this gun to sell at a specific price point. Their selling price to the jobber, who sells to distributors, who sells to retailers, who sell to you might be half of the retail price. In order to get the cost as low as practical means taking the human labor cost out of the picture as much as possible. They need to make a profit, they need to pay their employees a decent wage, and pay those taxes associated with labor. There is 11% VAT on all sporting good in this country adding more to the price. Utilities, raw materials, and on and on. Every time they can take a human out of the equation they can lower their total cost a little. Every nice finishing step that they think is mostly cosmetic, gets cut back as well.
All this might be true but it doesn't change the fact that the consumer has every right to an expectation that the firearm will at least function correctly, no matter the country of origin, the state of the economy or the paycheck of the worker. If the gun doesn't work then it shouldn't be peddled to unsuspecting consumers. This is especially true when you consider how long it takes for a well-established company to gain well-earned customer confidence in a well-made product and how soon it takes to squander said respect for a poorly-made product; particularly in the age of the internet where communication about your product-both good and bad-can be so readily and quickly accessed.

Note: Just to be clear, I am only making a general comment about the quality (or lack thereof) of firearm manufacturing and marketing principles. I have no direct knowledge of the alleged deficiencies of the Remington Model 870.
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Old April 27, 2010, 05:46 PM   #39
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Like I have said in other threads, I have an 870 express I bought late last year and have not had a single issue with it. Like many other things in life you never hear the positive experiences. I can imagine if everybody that has 870 exp's and had NO issues we would have to open a new server. Before I bought my 870 I read all the threads RECOMMENDING I purchase the 870 over the 500. So I have to wonder how many of the people telling me about the better quaility and overall value of the 870 are the same people bashing it now. Also, would be nice to know exactly what ammo/brand person was using when their gun failed.
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Old April 27, 2010, 06:12 PM   #40
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Well, namlot1979, just because you (and probably most others) have not experienced a problem with the 870 shotgun is not to say that others haven't. I have no reason to suspect that people who report experiencing problems with their 870s are making things up. Until you have purchased a brand new gun; have cleaned and lubricated it before taking it to the range, only to find that it doesn't work properly, can you commiserate with those that have.
And, yes, you always have the option of returning the gun to the manufacturer for warranty repair and that's good. But it's not the kind of thing anyone really wants to resort to. Guns that fail to work properly out of the box will always leave a bad taste in my mouth toward the manufacturer.
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Old April 27, 2010, 06:53 PM   #41
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Quote:
Like many other things in life you never hear the positive experiences
This isn't true about the 870. All you hear about (until recently) is how great the 870 is...it's the KING of pump shotguns, etc, etc, etc. And you know what? It was the KING of pump shotguns (and still is according to overall sales) but now the quality is slipping...there is NO QUESTION that this is true. Granted, cosmetic imperfections are not all that serious...but a failure to extract/eject can get you killed...period.
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Old April 27, 2010, 08:38 PM   #42
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I have never been much of a fan of Reminton guns made after WWII, however I have to admit the 870 USED to be a good product. According to all I have read this is quickly becoming a thing of the past. In our trapclub a member has an 870 express and he also has to pound the buttstock on the ground to get it to eject. This is a situation running rampant in the gun industry in the last decade or so. Seems the internet forums abound with customers sending guns back for warrenty. No manufactor seems to be exempt. This is not only a gun industry problem. So I ask everyone here, did you do give 110% in YOUR job today?
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Old April 27, 2010, 11:10 PM   #43
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And, yes, you always have the option of returning the gun to the manufacturer for warranty repair and that's good. But it's not the kind of thing anyone really wants to resort to. Guns that fail to work properly out of the box will always leave a bad taste in my mouth toward the manufacturer.
Change "gun" to "car" or "athletic shoe", "computer", "lawn mower", etc. - seems to be the norm in order to acquiesce to the consumer demand for the lowest price. Too many folks today have no knowledge about well-made things - everything is built with designed obsolescence and a throw-away mentality. Everything is considered "disposable" and that mentality has carried over, IMO and unfortunately, to the gun industry.

Middle-grade guns are getting fewer and fewer it seems. Soon you will have a choice of junk that needs fixing and those high-grade guns that many here cannot afford.

The consumer CAN institute change with the manufacturers, but you cannot expect top-dollar work for bottom-dollar pricing, especially from US makers
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Old April 27, 2010, 11:33 PM   #44
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Too many folks today have no knowledge about well-made things - everything is built with designed obsolescence and a throw-away mentality. Everything is considered "disposable" and that mentality has carried over, IMO and unfortunately, to the gun industry.
I completely agree! It's too bad that a lot of people don't appreciate quality. There are a couple of things we can do:

1. Call Remington's customer service and voice your displeasure.

and, more importantly...

2. Don't buy it...and encourage others to not buy it until they improve their quality.

In other words, vote with your dollars!!
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Old April 27, 2010, 11:36 PM   #45
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rbernie's reply #34
+1
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Old April 27, 2010, 11:41 PM   #46
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I completely agree with #34 as well, but it doesn't take away from the frustration that people feel when they buy a gun that doesn't work smoothly. Just sayin'!!
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Old April 27, 2010, 11:44 PM   #47
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While I agree this is Remingtons fault and they should fix the issues. Like you said they can see a ton of complaints online. However, the consumer also see's these complaints and yet they continue to keep purchasing the Remingtons then they complain. If it was 5 years ago when people were just seeing this problem that's one thing. By now it's a well established issue and I think if the customer purchases one they are partially to blame also as they should have been well aware of what they were getting into. I don't get why people continue to purchase Remingtons. They aren't going to care as long as their sales don't slow down.
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Old April 27, 2010, 11:54 PM   #48
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Just as an FYI. Bold type is mine.-

Quote:
Important differences between Remington 870 Police and 870 Express shotguns
The 870 Express has been an important part of Remington’s offering to the sporting market. It
was designed to meet a price point in the commercial market while still providing classic 870
functionality. All of Remington’s 870’s have interchangeable parts, even if they have cosmetic
differences. It is also important to note that many manufacturers use the 870 Express platform
for their Police / Combat models. Without exception, every manufacturer who utilizes our 870
platform serves to upgrade their system to a more efficient, street worthy platform.
While the 870 Express is still an 870, the best pump shotgun on the market, there are some very
important cosmetic and functional differences between it and the 870 Police. To our customers
in Law Enforcement, Military, Corrections, and Security, whose lives depend upon the unfailing
performance of Remington shotguns, the Police modifications are of paramount importance.
Synopses of the variances are provided below.
• 870 Police shotguns go thru a special 23 station check list – ranging from visual
inspection, functional testing, test firing, and final inspection.
• All Police shotguns are assembled in a “special build area” at the plant in Ilion, NY.
This section is secured and serves only to build LE and Military shotguns, with the
same factory personnel working at that assignment each shift.
• All parts that enter the “special build area” are visually inspected by hand to ensure
top quality and functionality.

• Due to heavy recoil in buck and slug loads, all 870 Police guns have a longer
magazine spring which ensures positive feed and function.
• A heavier sear spring is used to generate a reliable, positive trigger pull between 5
and 8 lbs.
• A heavier carrier dog spring is used to ensure when the carrier elevates the shell, it
will be held there until the bolt can push it into the chamber. This ensures positive
feeding when using heavier payload rounds.

• Police shotguns do not have an ISS (Integrated Safety System) which is a locking
mechanism on the safety of commercial shotguns. This type of locking mechanism
can cause delay to an officer who needs the weapon but does not have the
appropriate key. LE shotguns have the standard, proven, cross bolt safety.
• The fore-end on the Express model is longer and not compatible with many police
shotgun vehicle racks.
• The Police shotguns utilize the heavy duty SPEEDFEED Stocks and Fore-ends.
• The Express model will not allow for the addition of an extension tube without
physical modification to the tube and barrel, which can nullify the warranty.
• The Express model has a BEAD BLAST BLUE finish while the Police models utilize
either High Luster bluing or Parkerization.
• The Express model utilizes a synthetic trigger housing while the Police models use a
compressed metal housing.

• The Police shotgun barrel is locked down with a “ball detent” system in conjunction
with the magazine cap vs. a lesser grade “synthetic magazine spring retainer” lock
down as used on the Express system.
• The receivers used in Police guns are “vibra honed” to smooth out rough finishes
and remove burrs before parkerization or bluing.

Police shotguns use machined ejectors and extractors, as opposed to powdered metal
cast which are utilized on the Express models.

http://www.remingtonmilitary.com/art...Pol6-30-05.pdf
I've got an old 21"870 Express Special Purpose that only took a bit of tuning of the carrier to get it utterly smooth & reliable. I have carried it as a patrol shotgun with complete confidence. FWIW, I have all the 'upgrade parts' in stock, if it ever needs them.
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Old April 27, 2010, 11:57 PM   #49
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By now it's a well established issue and I think if the customer purchases one they are partially to blame also as they should have been well aware of what they were getting into. I don't get why people continue to purchase Remingtons.
Well, I can say with about 99% certainty that I will never buy an 870 again!!

I'm a Benelli man now...YMMV.
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Old April 28, 2010, 12:07 AM   #50
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Quote:
I don't get why people continue to purchase Remingtons. They aren't going to care as long as their sales don't slow down
If you have no knowledge there are issues - as dictated by sales - then why do anything differently? Just like cars, computers or anything else - sometimes they feel it is cheaper to just fix issues after under a warranty than engineer it in the beginning where it costs more - kinda like a rebate coupon - they know most won't bother.......
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