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Old April 18, 2010, 05:46 PM   #1
rc601962
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New Remington 870 - another failure to extract story

The President of Remington should be fired for the mismanagement of a once fine company.

My son and I took his new 26" barreled 870 Express out yesterday. Before we did, I thoroughly cleaned the gun. The fit and finish were not bad. It is a synthetic model with the new forend. I bought a 18" IC short barrel from Brownels. We brought that too.

It had extraction problems about 15-20% of the time with Remington 00 Buck, Remington Slug, Kent high base loads, and Federal low base loads. We would have to put the gun on safe and slam the buttstock on the ground to extract. It did it with both barrels.

Does Remington have and internet connection? If they did, they could read that this is a common problem. They could occupy their time with youtube videos of frustrated gun owners with the exact same problem. How freaking difficult could it be to make sure that a 60 year old product actually works when the customer gets it. It is a gun for crying outloud. Guns should work the first time. They are kind of important. It is a pump gun. Reliability is supposed to be what they do.

I have spoken to a local gunsmith. He says bring it in and he will fix it per the warranty. He also said he sees this ALL THE TIME on new 870s.

Last edited by rc601962; April 18, 2010 at 06:10 PM.
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Old April 18, 2010, 06:28 PM   #2
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Another rough chamber story. You are correct it is a simple fix that remington should have done before it left the inspection area. Wore out chamber reamers run too fast making bad chamber barrels. I always wondered if the reamers used on the express where the ones junked by the workers making barrels for the wingmasters
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Old April 18, 2010, 07:16 PM   #3
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It's not always a rough chamber.

My brand-new 870 had extraction issues as well, and I polished the heck out of it with no success. Turns out, the extractor itself was the problem. There's a spring that presses on a follower pin that then presses on the extractor. There was corrosion on the spring and the follower that caused it to stick with the spring in the partially-compressed state. As a result, the extractor was just kind of flopping around - sometimes it would grab the lip of the shell, other times it wouldn't.

I ended up squirting some penetrating oil down into the cavity that holds the spring and follower and working it around a bit until I was able to remove the extractor, follower and spring. After cleaning the parts up and cleaning out the cavity, it's been 100% since then.

The easiest way to check and see if this is your problem is to use your fingernail to pull the extractor claw away from its "rest state" and see if it snaps back instantly and with authority when released. If it doesn't snap back, or it's sluggish/gritty, you may need to clean the extractor assembly.
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Old April 18, 2010, 10:07 PM   #4
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That is interesting. I will check on that. But, I am not sure how that would contribute to this problem. The shell gets so stuck nothing moves.
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Old April 18, 2010, 10:13 PM   #5
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Well, it may or may not solve your problem, but your issue sounded like mine, since you were only having problems with 15-20% of your cases. Even after polishing up my 870, fired shells won't simply drop free if the extractor doesn't grab them - that's what led me to realize that the extractor was flopping around from the stuck spring/follower.
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Old April 18, 2010, 10:25 PM   #6
rc601962
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I hope my gunsmith bills Remington hourly for the work he does on this gun. Hopefully, Remington will loose all the profit they made by taking the shortcut of making ME their quality assurance testing department.
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Old April 18, 2010, 10:34 PM   #7
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Since it's new, why not send it back to Remington? I would think the odds of Remington reimbursing you (or your smith) for work done locally is pretty slim (unless of course, your smith is a Remington-authorized repair facility.)
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Old April 19, 2010, 05:30 AM   #8
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And people disagree with my Chinese made Norinco 982...

Not one problem, aside from the sharp edge on the receiver...
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Old April 19, 2010, 07:58 AM   #9
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You know what was going through my mind when all this happened?

SOMEONE COULD DIE IF THEY TRUSTED THIS GUN.

It is not a joke and we are not Remington's quality control team. You don't get to knowingly put out garbage and then get a chance to "make it right".

It is criminal negligence.
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Old April 19, 2010, 08:32 AM   #10
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The American buying public has spoken to these companies by buying lots of the cheap imported stuff based solely on the price. Remington, like any other manufacturer, is trying to remain competitive in that market arena.

If folks were willing to pay more for quality guns, they would make them.

IMO, pretty soon, there will be two grades of consumer items - the mass-produced junk for folks who only factor price, and the top-of-the-line items for those who value quality at any cost. These issues aren't limited to just guns.

Remington builds this gun to sell at a specific price point. Their selling price to the jobber, who sells to distributors, who sells to retailers, who sell to you might be half of the retail price. In order to get the cost as low as practical means taking the human labor cost out of the picture as much as possible. They need to make a profit, they need to pay their employees a decent wage, and pay those taxes associated with labor. There is 11% VAT on all sporting good in this country adding more to the price. Utilities, raw materials, and on and on. Every time they can take a human out of the equation they can lower their total cost a little. Every nice finishing step that they think is mostly cosmetic, gets cut back as well.

We want American-made high quality for the same price as low-quality imported stuff - isn't going to happen until China's middle class starts making more than we do.
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Old April 19, 2010, 10:13 AM   #11
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I don't buy the argument that Remington is a victim of the cruel market that just wants cheap stuff. I had an 870 15 years ago. It was $200. Their price now reflects a 50% increase.

Either way, they willingly priced their current model at $309. I didn't put a gun (one that actually works!) to their head. I purchased this gun. Implicit in this agreement is that the gun does what a gun is supposed to do - WORK.

Their current policy is kind of like stealing. I gave them money and they gave me a product they know will probably have problems. The worst part, if I was not a sophisticated user, their product could have killed me at a later point.
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Old April 19, 2010, 10:24 AM   #12
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Lighten up its a quick fix under warranty.

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Old April 19, 2010, 10:30 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackFeather
And people disagree with my Chinese made Norinco 982...
Not one problem, aside from the sharp edge on the receiver…
The first time I disassembled my Model 1100 a got a nice slice in my index finger from a razor sharp piece. Perhaps the folks at Norinco were just copying Remington.
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Old April 19, 2010, 10:39 AM   #14
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Lighten up? You have to be kidding. The problem is overwhelmingly large. Fortunately, I have been around guns a long time and knew enough to test this gun.

I am not overstating how negligent Remington is in this matter. Let's say the average guy buys an 870 Home Defense Shotgun to defend his family. He is not a "gun guy". He runs a few shells through it and puts it away. When he actually needs the gun, it fires once and is locked up solid. Bad things happen to him and his family.

It could happen. The problem was well known by the manufacturer and EASILY preventable.

He had the right to buy the product and expect it to work without home gunsmithing and/or returns to the factory.

P.S. Remington has decided to do this because they know there are people out there that will accept it and make excuses for them.
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Old April 19, 2010, 10:47 AM   #15
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Stories like these make me soooo glad I found a 1970 Wingmaster for my HD shotgun about 10 years ago. Paid about $200 for it IIRC, including having the barrel shortened to 18", and I refinished the age-corroded receiver and barrel last year. I had it out for some exercise this weekend and it's as smooth as can be. Not a single plastic part on it, although the recoil pad is something synthetic (and hard as a rock).

For now I wouldn't change the pad just for sentimental reasons, maybe I would change my mind after about 50 rounds. One thing I would like to try sometime is a magazine extension, right now it only holds four 2-3/4 inch shells.

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Old April 26, 2010, 12:37 AM   #16
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cause?????

I am not an 870 armorer or shotgun buff, but this does not sound like an extractor or rough chamber to me, or bad ammo either. This gun, if I read right, is not unlocking, which is a bolt, receiver, trigger group problem.

Likely misfit or faulty parts or machining is what I think.
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Old April 26, 2010, 07:44 AM   #17
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I was actually fixing to start a thread on this, but was hesitant cause I didn't want to start a "brand bashing war". Two good friends of mine just bought new 870 Express shotguns, and BOTH had the same issue. One went back to Remington- a few weeks later it came back with THE SAME PROBLEM still!!! Makes me hate the plastic safetly tab on my mossberg a little less.
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Old April 26, 2010, 11:48 AM   #18
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We want American-made high quality for the same price as low-quality imported stuff - isn't going to happen until China's middle class starts making more than we do.
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I respectfully disagree. There has been discussion of imports on this forum and they have been dismissed as junk simply because of the made in, you fill in the blank, markings stamped on the gun.

Well the imported junk seems to be performing well and our domestic makes are suspect in quality.

I think that Remington CAN do a better job and produce a price point shotgun that could give good service but I have read somewhere that the consortium that owns Remington is all about mass production.

The 887 was reviewed by a Randy Wakeman in an earlier posted link and that was alarming as regarding safety issues, but also sad, if true that Remington has "710"ed " the new 887.
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Old April 26, 2010, 02:29 PM   #19
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Yeah, the price point isn't the problem because Mossbergs are cheaper than Remingtons and they don't have the issues the 870s are having. All my opinion of course.

Put me in that group that had trouble with a brand new 870. I just polished the chamber a bit and just sat and racked an empty gun while watching TV one day and haven't had a problem since. I had a burr in there that is now gone. Thanks firingline!

It is a shame that I had to do that though to a brand new gun.
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Old April 26, 2010, 02:34 PM   #20
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Lighten up? You have to be kidding. The problem is overwhelmingly large.
Is it...?

We are the warranty station for Remington for the entire state of Alaska and we dont see many NEW 870s in here for work

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Old April 26, 2010, 03:44 PM   #21
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I have had more than one 870 with this exact same issue. I'm not sure how big or how small the problem is...but no doubt the quality of 870s is way down from about 15-20 years ago. Such a shame.

This is why I bought Benellis....I figured that I'd be in the positive after purchasing several lesser quality guns...and I was right. Benellis are not perfect, but mine have functioned flawlessly (unless I intentionally try to outshoot the gun ).
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Old April 26, 2010, 04:00 PM   #22
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Gotta say that I haven't had a single issue with my 870 Express. I bought it back in '07 or so, and it hasn't failed to extract a single round. It's eaten everything from slugs to light trap loads without a single complaint.
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Old April 26, 2010, 04:13 PM   #23
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Well sure...and I'd expect that most of them are just fine. However, from a pure probability standpoint, the percentage of bad ones would have to be fairly high (10% maybe) or I am just really, really unlucky. From a statistical standpoint I'd say that I am probably not just really, really unlucky.
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Old April 26, 2010, 10:16 PM   #24
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S'funny, I've handled and shot maybe 20 Expresses in the last year or so. None had these problems.

I'm probably not just really,really lucky.....
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Old April 26, 2010, 10:37 PM   #25
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Allow me to quantify my response...let's suppose 90% are fine and 10% have problems.

If you choose 20 expresses (randomly), you'd have a 12.2% chance that all are fine.

If I choose 2 expresses (randomly), I'd have a 1% chance that both are defective.

That fact that you got 20 good ones is more likely than I get 2 bad ones at the current supposed defect rate...what this means is that it is not unreasonable to assume that 10% are defective...in fact, it is probably a higher percentage. (When I say defective, I don't mean that they don't work, just that they have quality control issues.)

You can't deny the math...cuz it's right...afterall, I am the mathman for a reason.
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