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Old July 25, 2009, 01:05 AM   #101
guntotin_fool
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Now think about the actual distance from where your muzzle will be and where he (BG) will be when you finally decide it's not your roommate or college buddy and it's time to shoot. That 8 yard shot is going to be down to 3 or 4 yards.

Ruger. Thanks for another EYE witness report versus an I(nternet) report.
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Old July 25, 2009, 11:56 AM   #102
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But- "Why don't the cops use birdshot?"
Cops may have to use a shotgun up close or at long range, that's why. Buckshot works better at longer ranges.
Also because the police aren't worried about overpenetration--in fact, they want better penetration because they might have to shoot through a car's windshield, or a door, or the like. Birdshot won't do that, buckshot will.
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Old July 25, 2009, 12:44 PM   #103
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might have to shoot through a car's windshield, or a door, or the like. Birdshot won't do that, buckshot will.
Lemme know how that buck shot handles a windshield from 15 yards...
Be surprised what two layers of glass laminated with high tech thick soft plastic...
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Old July 25, 2009, 12:49 PM   #104
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Don't forget angle of incidence...

Windshields are usually sloped and curved, for better aerodynamic properties (minimizes drag and wind noise). Take a look at the glacis armor on a tank. Hmmmmm....

So the glass is not only pretty tough, but it's angled. This means any projectile hitting it relatively flat (as opposed to angled from above, for a 90 degree impact with the plane of glass where it hits) has two major challenges:

1) The angle of incidence is more likely to deflect the projectile(s); and

2) The projectile, if it keeps on a relatively straight path, has to penetrate a much greater depth of glass than the thickness of the glass itself. For instance, at a 45 degree angle to the plane of the glass, the projectile has to penetrate an additional 41% in depth of glass.

It's probably easier to penetrate the sheet metal of the doors than a windshield.
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Old July 25, 2009, 01:22 PM   #105
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Anyone that wants to tell me birdshot can't stop someone, either has his head up his wazoo or is just posturing and has NO KNOWLEDGE whatever of what birdshot will do at close range.

Nobody really argues that birdshot can't stop someone. They argue that birdshot can't stop someone as well as buckshot can.

Will birdshot probably work? Yes, it probably will be. But what happens when you get a guy on PCP that enters your house. Ever see a person on PCP? It's crazy, they have a sense of invincibility and extreme amounts of strength. In order to stop a person on PCP you'll have to take out their CNS or stop blood flow to their brain. Say you stop blood flow to the brain, they still have 3-10 seconds of consciousness left. That's a long time for them to get to you or your loved ones and cause you harm.

Really the only thing that will stop them then is disrupting their CNS. This happens when you take out their brain, hit their spine, or basically overloading their CNS through shock. Chances for this are highest with something that penetrates deeper into their tissue.

Will bird shot work? Yeah, it might. Problem is I can't choose the bad guy I'm going to face, but I can choose my ammo. When my life and the life of my family is at stake, why take the chance?
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Old July 25, 2009, 01:27 PM   #106
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so long as your family...

... aren't on the far side of the bad guy when the buckshot blasts through him, then fine.

There are pros and cons to both loads. With either load, you still need to hit the target, and be aware of others.
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Old July 25, 2009, 01:38 PM   #107
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Anyone that wants to tell me birdshot can't stop someone, either has his head up his wazoo or is just posturing and has NO KNOWLEDGE whatever of what birdshot will do at close range.
As stated, I never said it cannot stop... But like that nuance "shall issue" or "may issues" it is in the wording... I don't have any use for intentionally using a "may stop" round when I can easily obtain "shall stop" rounds.

And I have far too many thousands of birdshot hulls dead to feel you can ever convince me. Targets run the gamut from live game to random targets of opportunity upto and including good size trees.
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...k+tree+service
The above thread is one of my exploited targets. Tons of rounds over several months and it still had to be pushed over.
I am sure 100% that far less than 50% of the round count would have been needed had all we used were slugs and buck. The bird shot had very poor point blank penetration even though the payload entered as a single mass.
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Old July 25, 2009, 02:07 PM   #108
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Just a question for any/all of you suggesting birdshot for defense use - exactly what is your plan if the bad guy is standing behind a door frame? Do you fall back to colorful language?
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Old July 25, 2009, 02:14 PM   #109
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Who says you have to limit to just one type?

You could always alternate your loads. If birdshot does it, great, if not then move on to the second or third round and try buckshot.
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Old July 25, 2009, 02:25 PM   #110
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Alternating rounds does 2 things negative.
1)It brings one more mental duty to multitask... You have enough to worry about without adding sorting out what is in the tube next or now...

2)It severely limits the time you have getting off the "will stop" round. You may only get one shot off... MAKE IT COUNT!!!
Brent
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Old July 25, 2009, 02:43 PM   #111
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I have buckshot in my own 12ga

but that's in a house, not an apartment; the neighbors on two sides are the timber company and a WMA. I'm not worried about overpenetration.

I'd be comfortable going with something lighter than 00 in more crowded circumstances.

Birdshot will go through interior walls, but not as many as buckshot will. Birdshot will also carry less energy if it manages to pass through the BG than buckshot will.

But given my own situation, I definitely prefer 00. I just don't think it's one size fits all.
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Old July 25, 2009, 05:38 PM   #112
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This whole thread is getting silly now. Many of us are not saying that birdshot won't work...or that birdshot is not the best choice for YOUR situation.

What we ARE saying is that if all other variables are equal, buck shot (on the average) will kill/incapacitate someone faster than birdshot. I say on the average because there are always exceptions.

And by the way, just because someone has witnessed an event, that doesn't mean that it becomes the norm. One or two EYEWITNESS accounts is still a pretty small sample size...don't you think.

I'm done with this one.
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Old July 25, 2009, 07:15 PM   #113
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So, why would the guy tell me to get birdshot for self defense? And what am I supposed to do with it now?
He's ignorant. Talking out of his arse, believing that his store badge somehow equates with knowing something. Or maybe just repeating what he's heard from other ignorant people.
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Old July 26, 2009, 12:21 AM   #114
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Clarification Please

Some poor guy is awakened in the middle of the night by strange noises in his house. He grabs his 12 gauge and racks a round into the chamber. He confronts a thug. He levels his gun at the guys chest. The guy comes at him.

He pulls the trigger of his shotgun. This ignites the primer, burns the powder, and launches 1 and 3/8's ounce of number six shot at over 1300 feet per second into his chest a dozen feet away. That is over 600 grains of lead. Yes, they are individual pellets, but at very short range they are more like one solid object. Place a piece of paper 15 feet away and shoot it with birdshot. Then count how many holes you see.

The bad guy then grabs the gun and proceeds to put it where the sun never shines. Then he ransacks the home and stops at a bar for a cold one on the way home.

Is that what some of you really believe would be the outcome of such a scenario?

Maybe the bad guys in parts of this country are tough. Tougher then the ones around here. Our BG's here tend to drop when shot at point blank with a shotgun.
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Old July 26, 2009, 12:51 AM   #115
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This threads gotten more than ridiculous.
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Old July 26, 2009, 12:57 AM   #116
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Roy... the payload dissipates the energy like a bunch of little pellets. Like I have said, it comes down to "may stop" or "shall stop". I wouldn't hesitate to use a birdshot round if that was all I had. But since it IS NOT a safer round for down range and could fail to stop the threat in his tracks, I cannot suggest this ammo to anyone as a primary HD round.
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Old July 26, 2009, 12:57 AM   #117
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He pulls the trigger of his shotgun. This ignites the primer, burns the powder, and launches 1 and 3/8's ounce of number six shot at over 1300 feet per second into his chest a dozen feet away. That is over 600 grains of lead. Yes, they are individual pellets, but at very short range they are more like one solid object. Place a piece of paper 15 feet away and shoot it with birdshot. Then count how many holes you see.

First, they don't move like one solid object once they enter the body.
Second, imagine the person is on PCP, carrying a knife. You shoot him in the chest, destroying his heart which will cause him certain death. His brain has enough oxygen in it for 3-10 seconds. He runs up, slashes your throat, then falls down dead. You're bleeding with your throat slit next to him, likely to die yourself.

While this is a hypothetical situation, it's a possible one. I'd rather have the buckshot, blast him in the chest, hope it penetrates far enough where a pellet strikes his CNS and he becomes paralyzed and dies.

People aren't saying birdshot won't kill anyone...it will. It could disrupt the CNS and kill someone instantly too. What we're trying to say is buckshot has a better chance of doing this than birdshot does.

Why take chances with your life or the life of your family members.
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Old July 26, 2009, 12:20 PM   #118
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re:XYAS

Like I said, some areas must have tougher BG's then others. Hopefully, in those places the intruder can be spotted before he enters the home and stopped outside with an RPG!
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Old July 26, 2009, 12:22 PM   #119
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uncle sam used to use bird shot...

still buck is better. Get some buck and use the bird for training or reserve ammo.
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Old July 26, 2009, 01:13 PM   #120
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If I can't trust a load to kill a deer, then I won't trust it to kill a person. In general, that's my home defense philosophy. Use buckshot.
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Old July 26, 2009, 01:19 PM   #121
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If the deer was in your living room, birdshot would work just fine.
Why can't people understand this?
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Old July 26, 2009, 01:44 PM   #122
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If the deer was in your living room, birdshot would work just fine.
Why can't people understand this?


Just curious, I've never actually hunted but I watch the shows on tv where they shoot the deer and then it runs for 10+ seconds.

If you shot that deer with birdshot in your living room, would it still be able to run?

Would it be able to run more often or farther than if you shot it with buckshot instead?
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Old July 26, 2009, 04:08 PM   #123
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I think I know why so many people cling to birdshot as a viable (or prefered) SD round.

Lots of people (myself included) remember their dads or granddads some years ago talking about their shotguns and bragging that if anyone ever broke in, they'd use this on them (showing you the birdshot) and saying "it'll blow their head clean off their shoulders, leave nothing left of it". Their proof of this would be the big ole hole the birdshot left in the paper, or the watermelon that exploded after being shot from 10 feet away. And dear old dad or granddad, who had no concept of equations like F=ma and P=mv, would equate that big ragged hole in the paper target or the exploded watermelon to mean that anything in the path of that cloud of pellets would be completely obliterated.

And us kids, inclined to believe whatever our dad or granddad says as the truth believe this. Much like if your father tells you as a kid "Ford makes the best trucks, never buy anything but a Ford" you'll more than likely develop the same opinion and keep that opinion later in life, some kids grew up thinking that birdshot is the best thing to come out of a shotgun for self defense. And just like the guy who's love for Fords was instilled in him by his father will argue with a Chevy lover over which truck is better no matter what the facts are, the guy who grew up thinking that birdshot will blow a man's head clean off his shoulders will argue with anyone who says otherwise.

Anyone who uses birdshot is making a compromise. You're settling. Some argue that birdshot is better because its less likely to penetrate walls. Why would I want my life to depend on something that can't penetrate a wall? Sure, if you're extremely close and you're completely accurate birdshot could work. But why rely on something that only could work under the most optimal of circumstances? Why bother handicapping yourself?
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Old July 26, 2009, 04:40 PM   #124
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Safety Glasses

Remeber to wear safety glasses when shooting birdshot. All those pellets bouncing off the target could blind you.
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Old July 26, 2009, 04:53 PM   #125
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And dear old dad or granddad, who had no concept of equations like F=ma and P=mv
Yeah, those generations sure were stupid. Didn''t know anything about physics. Well, maybe just a little. Automobile, airplane, atomic weapons come to mind right off.

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