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Old February 21, 2008, 01:35 AM   #101
skeeter1
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"Homely guns, like homely women, may well work just as well as pretty ones. Some men just don't much care about looks while others do. But the well made, good looking ones are more expensive in either case.

I have one old but very pretty shotgun and one woman who was, in our distant youth, right good looking too. Both the gun and gal are showing signs of some honest wear now - so am I - but I still love both and have lots of nice memories of long-gone days.

Moral: Work to acquire what satisfies YOU, not someone else."
Those, my friend, are words of pure and absolute wisdom. Thank you for posting that!
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Old March 4, 2008, 07:02 PM   #102
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Interesting thread.
I don't own one of the "expensive" guns, but would love to. For me it's not to show off or brag. I would like to just have it long enough to enjoy then hand it off to my son to enjoy for me.
Right now I have a Mossburg 835 and my son a Benelli Super Nova that he received for Christmas.
Just once I'd like something NICE just for me for no other reason than "because".
If it helps me shoot better, great. If not, oh well.
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Old March 4, 2008, 08:50 PM   #103
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Why expensive shotguns? If you've got the bucks to plunk down on one I think the question is why not?
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Old January 31, 2009, 11:28 PM   #104
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the best part of this whole thread is the guy able to shoot 3 shells out of a single shot as fast as the guy holding an auto
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Old February 1, 2009, 12:22 AM   #105
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Is this still going on? Why? If I can afford my Perazzi (and one for my wife) and we like them, why do we have to justify them? No one actually needs one, and it you can't afford one, so what? You can probably do just fine, with practice with an 870. And if you don't think high priced shotguns are worth it, why should I care? My Italian O/Us and SxSs and my Spanish SxSs are worth it to me, and that's really what matters to me.

BTW, I was just at the Safari Club convention. This Fabbri costs more than I've ever spent on a car (my Mercedes included).



In any case: De gustibus non est disputandum.
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Old February 1, 2009, 02:27 AM   #106
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Asking what is the difference between a 300 dollar gun and a 3000 dollar gun is kinda lik asking whats the difference between a 10 dollar hooker and a 1000 dollar hooker. The first one gets the job done but the last one is sure easier to look at.
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Old February 1, 2009, 01:58 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by fiddletown
Is this still going on? Why? If I can afford my Perazzi (and one for my wife) and we like them, why do we have to justify them? No one actually needs one, and it you can't afford one, so what?
I'm also a multi-Perazzi owner and I must disagree with fiddletown on this one. Too many folks are missing the point: Many comp shooters truly feel that they NEED their P-guns. Look at the results from the recent Olympic games, Perazzi shooters dominated the medal ceremonies. It has nothing to do with having a pretty gun, or conspicuous consumption. For the comp shooters, the Perazzi design and execution helps them win medals.
To the average shooter, if a Perazzi wasn't hallmarked it would be inconspicuous among other O/U guns. Brownings are shiny and bright, K-guns have their private parts exposed, and Perazzis are plain-Janes. Of course, if you want a prettied-up gun, the Perazzi folks will be happy to help you empty your wallet.
The differences between a $2,000-$5,000 entry level O/U and a $10,000-$15,000 comp gun may be too subtle for the average M-500 or R-870 once-a-year shooter to identify. How many of us can tell the difference between a drag racer set up for a 1/8-mile dash and one ready to run the quarter mile? It's the same with shotguns; but, rest assured, those in the driver's seat can tell the difference.
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Old February 1, 2009, 03:32 PM   #108
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Zippy, at long last someone in this really stupid argument has spoken sense.

THere are several reasons that people own expensive guns:

1/ Pride of ownership ( i.e impress your mates) - why on earth would anyone spend $20,000 on a shotgun? Well, much the same reason you would buy an aston marton car, which is capable of speeds that are not legal anywhere-you get pride of ownership

2/ They look nice. To use a very crude analogy, you can compare woman in much the same way, but all perform the same basic function! This may be a tad crass, so i will leave it there.

3/ At top levels they do make a difference- why do you think Anchutze dominates small bore? Expensive guns, and at the highest level they do make a difference. And I agree with what a poster said a while ago- shoot a sporting clays comp with a el cheapo baikal, and a Perazzi, and see which gun stops you experincing pain by the last stand

4/ For hunting, the more you pay the better you get. I am not going to take a $20,000 shotgun on the back of a truck nightshooting, nor am i going to sit in a pigeon blind with one either- but i would MUCH rather have a benelli than a cheapo turkish knock off when you are firing a case of shells in a few hours- there, quality does matter.
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Old February 1, 2009, 09:10 PM   #109
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zippy, let me try to refine the analysis a little. It's true that most of serious and best competition shooters use one of the high end competition, break action guns: Perazzi, Kolar, a Beretta DT10, etc. It's not because they're pretty, because the guns used by the competition shooters tend to be plain. I suggest that there are three primary, and practical reasons for this.

[1] The guns are available with stocks made to custom dimensions. In wingshooting/clay target shooting, gun fit can be critical. The gun must be an extension of the shooter for the very best results. It must shoot where the shooter is looking. Yes, many people break a lot of clays or drop a lot of pheasants, with guns that are off the rack and that they've adapted to. But serious clay target competition is tough and close. Even if really good gun fit is only worth 1 or 2 targets out of a hundred, but that can be the difference between getting into a shoot off on one hand and going home early on the other. Last year at the California State Shoot (ATA Trap) the 16 yard championship was won with 400 straight (200 in the event and 200 in the shoot off). The guy who came in second broke 399. Sure an auto-loader can be fitted with a custom stock, and often is, but see [2] and [3].

[2] The better guns tend to work better as far as some of the little details are concern. The Perazzi's, etc., have, or can be set up for, excellent, cleanly breaking triggers. They tend to have fast lock times. These little details may make only a small difference. But as noted above, 1 target out of 400 can be the difference between 1st place and 2nd place. A serious competition shooter will want every edge.

[3] The best break action competition guns are mechanically very strong and reliable. The top clay target competitors shoot an awful lot, and their guns take a beating. It wouldn't be unusual for a competition shooter, between competition and practice to shoot 20,000, 30,000 or more targets in a year. Guns like Perazzis and Kolars are built well to stand up under that sort of use. A trap shooting buddy of mine was doing quite well with his properly set up Beretta 391, but it kept breaking. It was easy enough to repair, and he always had the parts and tools he needed with him; but it was a nuisance and negatively affected his concentration. He switched to a Perazzi MX14

But at the same time, there are plenty of guys who are doing quite well with their 391s fitted out at substantially less cost than a basic Perazzi goes for. An most of us aren't competing at that level. We like our Perazzis, we appreciate their quality, and we bring home a buckle now and again. But I would say that having a gun at that level is critical to our game.
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Old February 1, 2009, 09:13 PM   #110
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I'm more than happy with the close to $1k purchases for my Benelli M1 and Benelli M3. I'm not into fancy looking trap / duck guns. Benelli is, hands down, the best "tactical" shotgun money can buy.
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Old February 1, 2009, 09:41 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by fiddletown
A trap shooting buddy of mine was doing quite well with his properly set up Beretta 391, but it kept breaking. It was easy enough to repair, and he always had the parts and tools he needed with him; but it was a nuisance and negatively affected his concentration. He switched to a Perazzi MX14
Amen...
A comp gun satisfies your physical and mental requirements. Fiddletown, we're in the same boat, here. My initial rebuttal had to do with your opining that "No one actually needs one." LanceOregon just posted news of the recovery of Kim Rhode's medal winning Perazzi. I imagine, during its absence, Kim was feeling that she really needed her favorite Perazzi.
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Old February 1, 2009, 10:39 PM   #112
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Here are my two Beretta Deluxe Edition 390ST shotguns. The lower one is a standard Deluxe, while the other above it is a special Ducks Unlimited Edition. Both of these shotguns have far nicer stocks than current Beretta autoloaders. The figure in their wood is fantastic. And they both have nice engraving, with gold accents and gold plated inlays. Both the bolt and the follower on each gun are also beautifully jeweled.




I paid $500 for the top gun at an estate sale, and $750 for the lower one purchased used from a dealer.

My advice is if you want to buy a real nice shotgun, shop around for a used one. Look hard and long enough, and you can find some excellent deals. Both of these used shotguns that I bought had been complete gun safe queens for their original owners. They were both in completely unfired condition when I purchased them, with absolutely no sign of any use or wear whatsoever.

I've shot the standard deluxe a number of times at the range, and even hunted pheasants with it once. But I have kept the Ducks Unlimited model in virgin condition.

Here are closeups of the receiver of each gun:







And here is a close up of the forearm of the standard deluxe, illustrating the high quality and beautiful figure in the wood. Again, current Beretta autoloaders, including their high grade deluxe models, simply don't look as great as these guns do.

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Old February 2, 2009, 06:25 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by LanceOregon
I paid $500 for the top gun at an estate sale, and $750 for the lower one purchased used from a dealer.
Congratulations, you were at the right place at the right time. Typically, the DU guns are significantly upgraded from the standard issue. In addition to the prettied-up exterior, I'm assuming the action is as smooth as silk and trigger light and crisp.
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Old February 3, 2009, 09:37 PM   #114
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Smoothbores aside, since Im not really into the whole "classic" or "collector" category of shottys, the only shotguns I would pay over $1000 for would be the Remington 870P MAX or the Benelli M4 (or possibly the Super 90). Personally, given the choice, Id probably go with the M4. Sure, its up there price wise, but it is one sweet slab of machinery! But, Im no hunter or collector, so only "HD" shottys hold my interest.
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Old February 3, 2009, 11:40 PM   #115
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Asking what is the difference between a 300 dollar gun and a 3000 dollar gun is kinda lik asking whats the difference between a 10 dollar hooker and a 1000 dollar hooker. The first one gets the job done but the last one is sure easier to look at.
Oh, perfect! And you can bet there are a lot more reasons the $1000 hooker is better than the $10 hooker, you just can't post them here
I have a Winchester 1300 12 gauge that goes everywhere I go, it has it's own place in the back of my Suburban, a 1996 with a 454 and 200,000 miles. But when I hunt, I'd much rather take out my 26" Citori 20 gauge. I don't think it was expensive at $1400. I think anything over $5000 is expensive, especially if you're gonna beat it up in the field. It just handles better, is easier to carry on long jaunts in the grouse covers, and does almost everything that 12 does. And its a hell of a lot prettier.
So I use the Citori because I appreciate refinement, which is why I also drive a BMW 740iL when I'm not tearing up the back woods or beating through the snow in the dead of winter. I've driven both to Chicago, I'm from the Detroit area. The Suburban gets you there, its absolutely functional and better in certain conditions, but after 5 hours on the highway you're a bit beat, tired from the bumpy ride, want to rest more than enjoy the town. In the BMW, 100 mph feels like 70. In the Sub 70 mph feels like 100. The BMW gets you there refreshed, ready to party, in cool, elegant, refined comfort. That's enough reason for me.
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Old February 3, 2009, 11:52 PM   #116
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I don't think it was expensive at $1400.
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Old February 4, 2009, 09:51 AM   #117
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My .02 - why expensive shotguns?? As mentioned for targets - reliability, etc.

But also from the aesthetics - To some folks, a blacklight velvet painting of Elvis in their living room is "art"; to others, it's the Mona Lisa.....to some, a plastic, matte-finish gun is no different than a claw hammer....to others, the artist's execution of bulino engraving that takes over 6 months to execute, with over 1,000,000 fine marks to make a photo-like scene is something to behold

Some folks like "furniture" bought from walmart; others prefer fine, custom-made stuff using real and exotic woods - something where the pride of craftsmanship takes precedence over the ability to crank them out at blazing speed

Some folks understand that and can appreciate it, some don't

Neither right or wrong - just a different perspective
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Old February 4, 2009, 11:08 AM   #118
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inSight-NEO:
I can understand your shock. I'm not a pretentious guy, I don't spend money, for the most part I leave that up to the wife. I believe in getting value and that function is more important than form. And I take care of what I have.
I was raised in Detroit, poorer than dirt. But this grouse thing is something that I do with a passion. I came into some cash and decided to spend that amount of money for something I really love to do, for a piece of critical hardware that will last a lifetime if I take care of it, for a shotgun that felt like it belongs in my hands from the moment I picked it up - after trying many, many others. To me, it was worth it, and I've never - not once - regretted it.
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Old February 4, 2009, 12:00 PM   #119
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Why do some where a Rolex, Omega, Sinn or Breitling and others a Timex? They all tell time.

Shorthair,

Do you hunt with German Shorthaired Pointers? I do.
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Old February 4, 2009, 12:26 PM   #120
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I do. I hunt with pointers probably because I get the same aesthetic reward I get from that little 20 gauge. These aren't the big, plodding, ponderous GSPs that seem so common, these are little speed demons, with class.
My current number one, Tustin, and the late, great Remington.

Tustin on point.

Remington on a pheasant:

A day's work - a nice shotgun and a gourmet meal:
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Old February 4, 2009, 12:34 PM   #121
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Shorthair:

Those are some mighty fine GSP's you have there.

I get to Northwest OH and Southern MI for work occasionally.

Where do I have to hire on at to see those dogs work?

Walking the fields and watching the dogs work is my love!
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Old February 4, 2009, 12:35 PM   #122
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A friend of mine came up with an answer to that very question over 40 years ago.

“There are ‘T’ shirt, Tennis shoe and Timex kinda guys and there are Rolex, Rolls Royce and Reebok kinda guys.

And just about everything in between .
I think it is funny to say that Reebok goes along with Rolex and Rolls Royce. I don't know many people who have a Rolls Royce that would wear a pair of Reeboks.

Sorry, I have nothing useful to add, I just thought that quote was funny.
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Old February 4, 2009, 12:44 PM   #123
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Shorthair,

Those are beautiful dogs. We hunt over GSPs also. They aren't ours but belong to a dog handler we know who works out of the club we belong to; and they look much like yours -- lean, fast and classy. She's a fine trainer, and her dogs are a real treat to hunt over. They're enthusiastic and love to work. A day out in the field with those dogs is a special pleasure.
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Old February 4, 2009, 01:16 PM   #124
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Thanks so much, guys. They are my joy, unfortunately I'm down to one, Tustin. I'll look to get a pup in winter of 09/10. Nothing like two pointers in the field.
I hunt in Northern Michigan for grouse, have a place near Cadillac. I also hunt in the thumb when I can't get north, waterengineer, so maybe next fall we can coordinate...
Here are a couple more of Tustin:
Day I brought him home. He had all the style of a Lipizzaner stallion from the start.

On point:

More food:
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Old February 4, 2009, 01:27 PM   #125
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The reason for nice fine guns is cuz the po'ass guys like me will never have one
Shorthair has made me also remember something along these same lines...
while you are not hunting, your gun eats nothing but your hunting dogs still need money poured in their bowl everyday...
At 20 bucks per 50 pounds I feed a middle road feed so figure $1500 per year for the hunting dog's feed...
Maybe I should rid myself of them so I can get a Perazzi or similar gun...
Brent
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