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Old February 18, 2008, 07:43 PM   #76
Davis
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"You get what you pay for."

Not nearly as often as you think. The CZ-75, the Savage 110, the Nikon Monarch, are all examples of products that are cheaper but better than contemporaries. The Nikon Monarch is better than Leupolds that cost $100 more, the CZ is almost universally regarded as one of the best 9mm service pistols ever made yet is cheaper than the Glock, H&K, and SIG. The Savage 110 is regularly more accurate than the Weatherby Vanguard.

The SVD Dragunov, Chinese version, will set you back $2,500 if you buy the 308 version. $4,000 for 7.62x54R. You suppose you'll get superb fit and finish and, more importantly, accuracy for that price? A Finnish Lahti will set you back $1,000. You suppose that will buy you the most accurate, most reliable 9mm made? Which do you think will be more reliable, a Glock or a German Luger?

A Shiki-Kenjo Type 94 pistol will cost more than your H&K yet is dangerous to carry loaded, even with safety on.

I could go on.

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Old February 18, 2008, 08:42 PM   #77
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And just to keep things lively, I'll chime in and say that my Lee reloading gear creates ammo as good or better than the 'green' or 'blue' does, and at far less cost. The .223 ammo I product with the Lee Collet die groups regularly at .500" out of my Savage Model 12, but I've had to endure plenty of grief from users of other makes, with the same 'ignorance is bliss' nonsense, most of whom cannot believe ammo made with Lee gear can do that. I show them my targets, and they just stand there and blink. Kinda funny, actually.

So, if I'm getting what I pay for, I'm grateful!

BTW, I want a Rem 870....
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Old February 18, 2008, 08:45 PM   #78
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Glock vs. Luger? That is stupid though, they arn't even comparable. Glocks and Sigs are. So are 686 vs. GP100's and 870's vs. 500's

My old M1A was far more accurate and reliable than my mini 14. It cost about 300 bucks more and it was worth it to me.

I have no issues with CZ's, i know they are good weapons, but have you ever owned a Sig? or and HK? There is a reason why they cost as much as they do, just like nice shotguns cost more then cheapos.

I see it in trucks/guns/dirtbikes/computors/girls you get for the most part what you put in. We have already discussed my off roading machines, i went over it, and i have more than 9,000 dollars worth of equipment on a jeep that already cost me 22,000. It is quite possibly the most capable off roading machine in my county. I get out of it what i put into it.

Sure, i could buy a hi point pistol or charles daley shotty....but i wont because i think you get what you pay for.

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Old February 18, 2008, 08:46 PM   #79
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"but it does not make it a more suitable shotgun."

Wouldn't that depend on what suits me?

FWIW, there is a small hunt club on the Outer Banks and the gentleman, from time to time, take their small boats out in Albemarle Sound armed with beautiful old SxS Parkers, etc. I have their pics in a magazine around here somewhere.

John

P.S. - I surf fished the Outer Banks for 14 years using a 1986 Subaru GL wagon and drove around more than one stuck stock Cherokee, among other brands. My stock wagon came with skid plates, armored exhaust, dual-range 5-speed, 3-position rear shocks and tires just wide enough (at 15 psi) to float the light car over the deep powdery sand that sank some of the heavier vehicles up to their axles. Oh well, whatever works, works.
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Old February 18, 2008, 09:23 PM   #80
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"Glock vs. Luger? That is stupid though, they arn't even comparable."

What, you mean a striker-fired 9mm semi-automatic service pistol manufactured in Austria? Or do you mean because one is a newer design? That the Luger will cost considerably more means, then, that you don't get what you pay for if its old? Okay, fine by me. It seems you get what you pay for rules are subjective.

I have indeed owned a Sig, a 220, and a West German one at that. I still own the CZ. Compare the reliability and accuracy between the CZ P01 and the SIG 228? Now compare price. Sure, you get what you pay for.

What about the Dragunov? It's newer than your M1A (you got it real cheap, if it cost you a mere $800, or you paid way too much for your Mini). Check out the fine backed-on enamel finish on that Drag. And accuracy? Yep, $4,000 worth of accuracy...but wait, nah, it can't shoot as accurately as a Savage. You get what you pay for?

How about the Romanian PSL? What about the Leupold compared with the Monarch?

For that matter, the M1a can't shoot as accurately as a Savage, bone stock, and even when you compare the most accurate M1a to the most accurate Savage...

"Wouldn't that depend on what suits me?"

Sure, it does. Tell me, how does a fancy burled walnut stock increase the usefulness of a shotgun? It is, of course, less strong than a birch stock would be. That you place value on the quality of the wood, the finish, the engraving, is certainly fine. But come now, to thine own self be true. Such enhancements increase price but not functionality.

As to the Subaru, they make good cars. But you would have floated away if you had followed me today. And you would have also bottomed out over the stumps I have driven. But that's fine. I'm not going to bash another guy's car. I never did.

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Old February 18, 2008, 09:34 PM   #81
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ha, back to car bashing. I dont suppose either of you know enough about cars to know what beadlocks are do you? Well they are a kind of wheel. If your a serious wheeler then you should have a pair. and your jeep has less than 10 inches of ground clearance, thats not anything to brag about.

Now, back to guns....

I believe oak is harder than birch isn't it? Why not go with that, it looks great to. As far as handguns go, i guess there is a lot of preference, but i know a Glock trigger is not as good as a Brown trigger. I know its not as accurate either. Not in my hands anyhow, and i have shot them side by side. I really wanted to like glock, they are cheap.But i didnt like them, hence HK and Sig.

Compare Glock to HK. Compare Lugers to P-35 (Browning HP's)

You dont think an M1A can shoot as well as a savage? wow dude. You need to go to more matches and see if people are shooting M1A's or savages.
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Old February 18, 2008, 09:38 PM   #82
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Yukon and Davis, just for the record, I've decided that I don't care what either of you like. I'll stick with my Perazzi at the trap range, and my Bernardelli SXS will no doubt continue to knock pheasants out of the air for me.

Continue ranting at each other if you wish. And I may be the only one here who finds it tiresome. But since you both seem to be enjoying spouting off your opinions, I thought that I'd let you know mine.
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Old February 18, 2008, 09:48 PM   #83
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I care? If you are tired, then I suggest you stop reading the posts.

Yukon, try actually reading all posts. You've for some reason decided to make this personal, again. Don't you have homework to finish?

But then, that would not be polite to ask, would it?

As to oak, you really don't know firearms, do you? You try and put me down, but you really show your ignorance with that.

As to Glock, you may not be able to shoot them, but strangely enough they are used by more competitors than H&K. You advise me to stick to eras? Fine by me. Okay, compare the Hi Power to the Luger. The Luger was far more expensive and far less reliable than the Hi Power. But, of course, the Hi Power is WWII and the Luger is really from an earlier time. Okay, so compare the Luger with, say, the 1911. Which one cost more? Which one was more reliable? Still didn't get what they paid for, did they?

You still have ignored the rest. The fact remains that in firearms, the term "you get what you pay for" is meaningless. In some cases that is true. In many, many, many others it is not. Kid yourself all you want.

Why that is so hard for some folks, I don't understand. Yukon, you like modified vehicles. Okay, fine by me. Why the hell do you care what works for me? You don't like Glocks but do like H&K's. I'm fine by that. Why do you have a problem with my reasoned and experienced choices? Yet I can say what works for me and you have a problem with that. The fact still remains you are a college student in a relatively easy course of study preparing to get into law school. Your off road experience is much more limited to mine.

There are folks here who have competed in far more shotgun competitions than I. They have uses for shotguns that I do not. They may see the value in spending large sums for guns and even larger sums for ammo. I don't dismiss their needs nor desires. I say I have no use for the frills because I don't, because the frills do nothing to stop a rabbit's heart from beating. I do like the frills in a sword, which is in modern times a pretty useless weapon. So I accept in that observation that different folks like different things.

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Old February 18, 2008, 10:07 PM   #84
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Your right, i know nothing about oak on weapons, i just know its a hard wood and it looks pretty when its polished so i thought it might work, just a thought. Why wouldnt it.

I guess i was referring to eras, and i know that the HP was more reliable and cheaper, if it wasnt then it would not still be around today.

I am indeed a college student, and i know what works best for someone does not work best for others. If that was the case then there would be one car company and one gun company. I dont know what you are referring to as offroad, and i dont want to get into it. But if you want to see the kinds of things i have accomplished in my young and therefore worthless life look at the rubicon trail and see if you have the balls to do it in a stock car. I will save you the time, you cant. Its impossible.

Your right, law comes after OCS though, i want to serve my country first. As far as homework goes, our coaches make us go to study periods, so it was taken care of ages ago so i have more time to chat.

So you really believe that you dont get what you pay for?

Sorry fiddletown, those sound like nice shotguns. Did you get what you payed for?

this is going to get locked soon, sorry to OP, there is a lot of good info here though, if you ignore the bickering going on in the last few pages.
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Old February 18, 2008, 10:25 PM   #85
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Fair enough.

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Old February 18, 2008, 10:51 PM   #86
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Ommmm...mellowwwww

Guys, chill. I understand where both of you are comming from. I have driven stock vehicles and have built and driven heavily modified vehicles. Both serve the purpose for which they were designed. I have also used firearms from the custom-made to the mass produced.

I also understand that expensive guns and less expensive ones both fire a projectile(s) at a target. While the less expensive ones are more utilitarian in their form and function, the higher end arms are considered because they are sometimes custom made and fitted for a specific user.

While both firearm and vehicle serve the purpose for which they are designed, some perform better than others for a specific use. If you shoot good with a factory gun and shoot great with a custom one, then buy the custom. If a stock vehicle will convey you to your destination then use it. If the task at hand calls for a vehicle with modification, then modify your rig to the extent for which you need.

My point is this: If your stock Cherokee gets you up and down the fire roads or you trail rig gets you through the sledgehammer or if your 1100 fills your game bag or your K-80 shoots the best round of trap of your life; then get it, use it, and love it for what it is worth to you.

To each his own.
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Old February 18, 2008, 11:22 PM   #87
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Johnson Valley...respect.

i think me and Davis have worked out our differences.

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Old February 19, 2008, 08:45 AM   #88
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"Tell me, how does a fancy burled walnut stock increase the usefulness of a shotgun?"

If it feels good to me, and it looks good to me both in the field and at the cleaning bench, well, then I figure it has enhanced the overall experience, and that to me is useful.

As to how a good piece of walnut affects function, I think it does affect the handling characteristics and swing. It's all about wood density and the 'tiswood stocks seem to vary a great deal more than the walnut I've handled.

My black synthetic 1100 shoots okay, as does my old 870 Express with the genuine hardwood stock with painted on grain finish. OTOH, I can tell a difference in the way a gun balances when comparing an inexpensive hardwood stock and a good piece of walnut. Ever shoot one of the mahogony stocked 1100s? They balance a little different than the walnut or inexpensively stocked models too.

And what in the world does you driving over stumps have to do with my experience driving an old Subaru in the deep sand. I've about decided that all you want to do is make silly arguments. Try saying, "Well that's an interesting fact. I didn't know that."

John
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Old February 19, 2008, 08:51 AM   #89
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I still want a set of these McKay Brown guns. Or maybe I'd order them in O/U. I don't have quite enough money yet, but I'm getting there. I know, I'll get 2 O/U and 2 SxS. John

www.mckaybrown.com/Setof428guagesidebyside.html
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Old February 19, 2008, 09:08 AM   #90
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John, those are beautiful shotguns man. I bet they shoot just as good as they look. I had never heard of that manufacturer until now. Damn you. I want one now.
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Old February 19, 2008, 09:19 AM   #91
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Quote:
T.A.Sharps: Why Expensive Shotguns??
Why Inexpensive Shotguns???


I work to buy the best quality I can afford no matter what the product is - this has served me well.

On the rare occasion I did buy a cheaper version I regretted it and upgraded as soon as I could afford it.

Lessons learned.
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Old February 19, 2008, 09:46 AM   #92
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John, you observed how many Cherokees you passed stuck in the sand...

I observed characteristics that would have swamped your Subaru...

Quid pro quo.

I noticed you failed, yourself, to make the comment "How interesting that his Cherokee is perched with kayaks on the banks of the Mississippi."

In any case, the horse is dead.

Davis
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Old February 19, 2008, 11:19 AM   #93
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Yes Yukon, they are nice shotguns, thank you. And I do feel that I got what I paid for. They perform their assigned tasks well, and it gives me pleasure to use them. For me, that's what it's about.

John, I've often looked longingly at McKay Brown guns, and perhaps one day I'll indulge. For my part, I prefer his SXSs. There is just something about the smooth lines of a Scottish round action SXS that I find especially attractive.
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Old February 19, 2008, 08:45 PM   #94
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This is a funny, maybe odd, thread but I've enjoyed reading it. I've never been rich and retired this past year. I'm still sorting out my cash flow and doing all right, but don't have a ton of money to spend. Consequently, to satisfy my renewed interest in double guns, I'm getting a basic Spartan hammerless coach gun and a 28" field gun with double triggers. My other shotguns are pump Winchesters and Remingtons and a couple of NEF single-shots. The best that I can gather from folks I've talked to and the reading I've done is that I have a pretty fair chance and getting durable, functioning guns that I can knock around with and enjoy. I don't mind the lack of "pretty" or the lack of Walnut. Birch and Beech are both perfectly good woods and harder and stronger than Walnut. I can't afford top dollar guns without sacrificing other things I don't want to sacrifice. Maybe if I get the "bug" real bad I'll make some changes and do what I have to do to buy "up". I drive a 2004 Jeep Wrangler and don't nearly put it through as much stress as some of you have indicated. So, I have neither high dollar shotguns, nor a high dollar ride, don't feel I can afford either, am perfectly happy with my choices (even when they don't turn out) and don't begrudge anyone the right to own a $50,000 ride or a $20,000 shotgun. It just don't matter much. By the way, I really admire some of the things you guys do and have done with your time. It's enjoyable to have you share them with us.
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Old February 19, 2008, 10:21 PM   #95
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Laz,

Great post!

-Cheers
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Old February 19, 2008, 10:58 PM   #96
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Thanks, PT-92. Appreciated.
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Old February 19, 2008, 11:00 PM   #97
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Yes, +1 to Laz's posts

I had fun anyhow

YK
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Old February 20, 2008, 03:15 AM   #98
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By the way, i checked out those Mckay Brown shotguns, there is a two year build time.
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Old February 20, 2008, 11:30 AM   #99
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"don't begrudge anyone the right to own a $50,000 ride or a $20,000 shotgun"

Or even a $20k ride and a $50k shotgun.


Here's a new McKay Brown for sale in the U.S., but no pics, although a good pic easily trumps a logical argument.

http://gunroom.shootingsportsman.com/listing/268

"Price: $105,000.00 (U.S.D.)
Additional Info: David McKay Brown Best O/U 28 gauge, 28" bbls, amazing engraving by Pedretti, game scene woodcock in flight, absolutly gorgeous wood, teague chokes, solid rib, LOP 15" DOH 2" DOC 1 1/2" CAST off 1/8" "
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Old February 20, 2008, 12:18 PM   #100
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Quote:
Or even a $20k ride and a $50k shotgun.
LOL, that, too.
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