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Old September 24, 2005, 10:26 PM   #126
Dfariswheel
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Duxman:
If you have cinderblock side walls and brick rear, you're good to go with buckshot.

Buckshot won't penetrate block or brick walls.

A test I once saw showed that buckshot will "spall" block and brick, but won't "bust" them, and certainly won't penetrate.

Block and brick are about the only wall construction that WILL stop buckshot.

As I recall, even slugs won't penetrate block and brick.
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Old September 25, 2005, 06:07 AM   #127
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Just to touch on the possibilities of firing at a distance of 50'. I live in a 80 yr old row home. For those of you down south and elsewhere, it is what they now call "town" homes. Think of the opener of All In The Family, here in the N.E., they are rows. But anyway. From mt front door straight back to my back door is 50'. If a goblin is at one end, and I am the other, and he threatens my fams safety, I am engaging.
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Old September 25, 2005, 07:28 AM   #128
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This thread is like the Energizer Bunny...It just keeps going and going and going...
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Old September 25, 2005, 07:43 AM   #129
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Quote:
Buckshot won't penetrate block or brick walls.
I'm going to dispute this.

There are a lot of variables, from the distance the buckshot is fired from to the quality of the masonry and the brick itself. I have seen buckshot penetrate a brick chimney. It was a ND from about 4 feet, and the chimney was about 10 years old made of fire rated red brick. The opposite wall of the chimney was not penetrated.

There are no absolutes.


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This thread is like the Energizer Bunny...It just keeps going and going and going...
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Old September 25, 2005, 08:28 AM   #130
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Why keep it simple - when you can make it difficult?

Well I can certainly understand why some folks just call 911.

I know, with Halloween coming up - I reload some Skittles or Reece's Pieces - Goblins show up " Trick or Treat".

I am not the only one that has actually gone out and shot inside structures. Using safe backstops and abiding by 4 Rules.

Materials are one thing, these material react differently when actually part of a structure. Two x four studs differ from sixes. Paneling from sheetrock, from drywall ceilings. Porecelan tubs from Fiberglass ones. Fake wood fireplace mantels from heavy wood mantels.

Boy...them stone fireplaces are tough customers. Shooting from the "bedroom" out, stone fireplaces will stop a slug. Takes a nice chunk out of the River Rock, still stopped it. I'll stick with the 1oz Federal slugs anyway.

Find a way to shoot Thermal Pane glass installed. Have a target on other side, and take note of POA/ POI. Reacts just like vehicle glass, bullets, buckshot, do not always end up where pointed - slugs do much better.

Shoot thru a heavy glass room door - one that divides rooms.

Try the glass decorative bricks for backstops. Say for instance you need to cower down for cover below a kitchen counter, bar, or low divder wall in an office setting made up of these decorative bricks.

I think about what if...what if the BG is coming at me, what can I use for cover to stop his incoming lead.

I hope he is using Skittles...
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Old September 25, 2005, 10:14 AM   #131
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Re: rob96

You must also have nice folks working at your prosecutors' office.
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Old September 25, 2005, 11:38 PM   #132
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Kudos to Charles S entry #25


Second finest example of common sense.


See entry #8
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Old September 26, 2005, 08:02 AM   #133
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Wow... I was wondering how this tired old topic could go for pages and pages. I see... .

lpl/nc (still loading 00 and slugs in the 870 anyway, thanks)
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Old September 26, 2005, 09:56 AM   #134
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wow 133 posts and I am still convinced that birdshot sucks for home defense! another vote for 00 buck here.
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Old September 26, 2005, 10:30 AM   #135
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Still reading and writing

I agree with most of the various thoughts and similar scenerios,
00..000..0000, slugs, good stuff.

But I will stick with my thoughts regarding the question. In the house and less then 10 feet.

Again at that distance you are going to have that slug going through the BG and the wall and the wall. Pretty much with your heavier buck.
I don't shoot um and then drag um in the house like I saw once...LOL

So I still like the bird shot for my first one in the snout.

Nothing wrong with a good discussion it is when people call each other names that things go a drift.
So don't throw mudd unless you want it thrown back, thats a good point also.
Does not hurt anybody? Hey this is an internet talk board. I can figure that most of the BS is from just that. BSers... I agree with others like I have said,
and again I go with my scenerio for less then 10 feet in the house.

Lets see, how many of you have shot buck shot or seen the damage of the various things we have talked about to the human torso?

Since leadcouncil has dissapeared after the salvo to his character, wonder how he is doing? Kinda makes you think don't it? Or not.

Harley
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Old September 26, 2005, 10:53 AM   #136
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Quinn,

This post is dead in the water... nobody cares that you use birdshot and you seem to be about the only one. You have NOT posted a single professional source that backs up your statement about using birdshot. Others, including myself, have posted MANY professionals that recommend buckshot.

I only hope that any burglar that attacks your home is unarmed, not wearing a heavy jacket or body armor, and approaches within 10' and then waits for you to shoot him. Beyond 10' or if he is wearing protective clothing, your birdshot will be an ineffective manstopper. Great that you've protected others from overpenetration, and the perp will thank you while he's standing over your body with your shotgun getting ready to go rape your daughter.... and bleed all over your wife because you caused alot of surface tissue damage....

As for the unwarranted attack on my character on another posting, that person should back up their comments or sit down. He's done neither, much like you. You're in the clear minority here regarding birdshot for home defense applications. The overwhelming research, HD instructors, and firingline posters all recommend buck; you'd be wise to listen. However, I stopped posting because I said I was withdrawing and I really give a rats @ss about what you think is best for HD because you have zero credibility anymore.

Oh, and by the way, I performed your silly little test over the weekend using birdshot and buckshot. The birdshot barely damaged the object at 10' and the buckshot destroyed it. So, there you go. If you're worried about overpenetration, Daisy makes a great BB gun... maybe you can shoot his eye out.
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Old September 26, 2005, 11:01 AM   #137
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Hi Lead

Yes I agree with you on some of what you are saying.

But and here is the real issue, you are not who you say you are in my
opinion and I don't believe you did the test. OK.

Lets just let it go at that, Opinions are like -------- because everyone has
one.

Your last post said it all.

Harley
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Old September 26, 2005, 11:21 AM   #138
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Bucks and Birds and Sneezy, Grumpy, and Doc

Might as well take one more kick at this dead horse. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, shoot it with duck-shot.

If it weighs 200 lbs, wears a mask and light body armor and has a gun, how about using buckshot? Lots and lots of buckshot.

Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

Like somebody said opinions are like ------s, everybody has one.

Of course , when deciding what might be a life or death question, the only opinion that finally matters is your own, because that's the opinion that will either keep you alive, or kill you.

If it was a majority vote, then birdshot is out by about a 6 to one ratio here.

Fortunately, there is no mandatory loading that has been legislated up to now, so anyone is entitled to use buckshot, birdshot, rock salt, skittles, whatever floats your boat, as long as you know that its only YOUR LIFE that hangs in the balance.
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Old September 26, 2005, 11:36 AM   #139
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I really hate to help perpetuate this thread, but one more thought comes to mind... there is a "happy medium" between 00 Buck and #7 birdshot. There is some strong authoritative support for #1 Buck and #4 Buck... loads which will be much more effective than birdshot, yet not penetrate walls quite as readily as 00 Buck will. Not so great for long distances, but for a homeowner with likely ranges of perhaps 5' to 30', it's a reasonable alternative, though not perfect... but nothing is!
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Old September 26, 2005, 12:36 PM   #140
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Actually...

I used to work in the Main OR of a big hospital. We had 19 OR suites.
This did not include other surgical areas btw...

I worked there as I was taking medical classes at the time, I was going in that direction at the time. So with my classes, I had rotations if you will.

My shooting pards over the years, many were Doctors, Surgeons, ScrubTechs...

So yes I have seen , literally stuck my Bio-Gel -ed hands into the goo, gore, blood, muscle, bone, tissue...to retreive the lead / various types of ammo emptied into a human body. I have done so with Animals as well.

Same with edged weapons, pointy sticks, the green fence stake that went into a ladies body during a MVA and - best to just bring her in with stake and remove in the OR.

Seat belts, have a tendency to do nasty things to mammaries, sometimes the breast was saved, sometimes not.

We had a "discussion" once upon a time, in regard to the "Ultimate Shotgun", many folks recall the discussion.

We have Professional Folks on this board and THR, actually been on Safaris and such. Buckshot is NOT the "Ultimate". Basic gyst of that discussion. Now when a mean critter weighing only 150# , with claws, horns or whatever is coming at you, intends to do harm, and does not have a PC much less the internet - said critter does not know he is supposed to run away, or DRT. Mother Nature instead gave that critter some skills, and that critter is gonna do some serious hurt, if an IMMEDIATE ACTION does not occur by his 'prey'.

Apply this to a bigger , meaner critter.

Humans are another factor in this equation.

I have shot rabid critters, including dogs ( in a pack or not) weighing 60# to 120#. At distances as close as 2yds. Buckshot did not always stop the immediate action with one shot, and I made good hits! A 60# mutt did not stop DRT, he keep a coming and was serious about his intent, I shot until the threat was stopped.

I doubt seriously bird shot would have done any better. I figure a human being weighing more, with intent, drunk, high, both or all the above is a no brainer.

I choose to NOT risk the "sound of a pump will scare 'em. Nor do I chance the sound of the gun, or any type of projectile going at them - would stop and immediate threat.

Why do I want to give away my intent by racking a pump or any other action , like throwing a bolt, racking a slide, closing a cylinder, slapping a mag in...I do not give away my position when I hunt - why in the world would I want to when the BG is the one hunting me?

I am also responsible for any projectiles I launch. So why would I fire an indescrimate warning shot - or scare tactic shot?

WE talk , bash, trash, discuss, get threads locked, and theorize Firearms, Platforms, Wood & Blue, tactical, Bling Bling, Fuzzy dice, caliber wars, guage wars, birdshot, buckshot, slugs, dragons-breath , flares - you name it.

The reality is - we have 4 Rules of Gun Safety. Guns are dangerous tools no doubt. It is the intent of the user of any tool, every tool has Rules of Safety - be it a handsaw, powerdrill, or matchstick.

Reality is also - There is NO Warranty that any Firearm, with any loading is 1) gonna go bang. 2) Result of said bang will hit what aimed at ( shot placement) and 3) the immediate threat will be stopped.

I have seen, stuck my Bio-Gel -ed hands into the mouth of a fellow that stuck a .357 revolver , with full power .357 loads mind you , into his mouth and pulled the trigger.

Yes he lived, and is still living. Granted he has room service, all sorts of attention, folks tending to him, some dental work, sinus work, - but he lived.

There are NO Absolutes in Life - except there ain't any.

My observations : If some life form ever draws a breath. if you will - someday it won't anymore. About as Absolute as I tend to get.

Human beings are facinating. Anatomy and Physiology I really really enjoyed. The human body is the most unique "computer" if you will, all sorts of stuff all working at the same time. The body is designed to protect itself.

All sorts of things happen when a body takes a trauma. All sorts of things happen while laying on a OR table.

So yes my experiences do shape my opinions. My experiences sometimes takes me back to my youth and <click> "umm maybe that is why that critter did not do this, or that person died, or that one survived that car wreck, fall, this, that or the other accident or experience".

This board, TFL was set up to Promote Responsible Fiream Ownerhip.

I know, there are folks all over the world that read TFL and similar sites. I also know there are folks that are AGAINST Responsible firearm ownership that read TFL as well. What perceptions did I [Steve] do for Responsible Firearm Ownership with my postings?

I have my faults , made my mistakes, I am human and will so again most likely.

There is so much to this Responsibe Firearm ownership - than guns.
So much more than types of shot, slugs, ammo, mag capacity and whatever else is hashed, bashed and trashed.

Rich has a sig line : More Signal, Less Noise.....please

Well Rich - I apologize for wasting bandwith. I know I cannot change people, places and things. I am responsible for ME, and I am the only one that can change ME.

I am going to do everything possible to NOT be there when trouble shows up. I am going to know how to use various tools, be it guns, ammo, voting, being a member of some Organization, taking a new shooter shooting, keeping up with legistalation ...etc.

Most of my trigger time is on shotguns and handguns. I let the rifle skills kinda slide - and I used to shoot rifles in competion when I was younger. That is my fault.

Folks - we can hash, bash, trash all we want. The reality is one has to actually get the training, test for themselves to make a determination. Once that deterimination is made - really really hope that determination is never tested in the real world application.

Again apologize to Rich, Staff, and Mods. I'm going to log off and then read the L&P, nope on second thought, going to read some old archives , need a LawDog story I do.

I have some other reading to do in the TFL Library, I keep finding new things to read and learn from in there.

I won't be making noise - I'll be making more signal.

Steve
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Old September 26, 2005, 12:55 PM   #141
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Hi

If you take the ones who disagree and the ones who agree and figure it out, my odds are a lot better than the NRA and the way the rest of the country feels if you look at the amount who actually are in the NRA.

So as far as preaching the majority to me all I can say about that is this:

Considering the amount of LEO in the country and the percentage, there again I don't feel they are in the majority. Reminds me of the movie 'High Noon'.

Or lets take the people who were responsible for the writing of the constitution do you think they were in the majority?

So stick to the thread and not some other feeble attempt to persuade me.

The way President Bush got into office in the first place did not impress me.
Nor do your attacks Lead, pretty feeble about my family and trying to make it look like you care while you are just a, well, nuf said. What is it they say about mob rule?

Lead are you trying to get this thread locked? So anyone who sees your feeble attempt will not be able to answer you?

Harley
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Old September 26, 2005, 12:57 PM   #142
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Quinn,
Do you ever proof read your posts, or maybe decide to make a POINT when you type? You often ramble nonsense....
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Old September 26, 2005, 12:59 PM   #143
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Again, Harley,

Quote:
Lets see, how many of you have shot buck shot or seen the damage of the various things we have talked about to the human torso?
I have extensive experience with shooting buck shot. A long time ago I felt the need to test the effectiveness of buckshot on jugs of water, wet paper, clay, and ultimately ballistic gelatin. Being a hunter, I have shot a lot of critters with buck shot. If you take the time to test your choke and find the appropriate load, and pattern your load I find the real life hunting performance to be adequate, not good just adequate.

Yes, I have seen a lot of torsos shot with buck shot, bird shot, handguns, and rifles. I have seen more knife wounds than I can count.


Steve,

Well written post.

Quote:
This board, TFL was set up to Promote Responsible Fiream Ownerhip.
Quote:
What perceptions did I [Steve] do for Responsible Firearm Ownership with my postings?
Again, well written, we all need to keep this in mind.

Charles
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Old September 26, 2005, 01:18 PM   #144
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Hi steve and charles

I feel what I have said is responsible and if you can't see that well to bad.

I never advocated a warning shot???I never said half of what the super killers are saying. When the time to pull the trigger on a man or human is there, hope you make the right decision.

But if I am in a bad position regarding approaching someone alone, yes I will fire at the ground if need be, rather than risk having to kill. Been there done it.

Harley
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Old September 26, 2005, 01:31 PM   #145
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Lead Council

Nonsense, You have stated nonsense. I have only talked a better mouse trap for the distance of most shootings (that is a stat that you can find yourselves) You like to attack the persons and throw out small statements that are not condusive to proper arguement.

Big game, soft skinned, and man, at the distance I am talking are toast swiss cheese. Goo and all the other stuff SM said.

Hope this finds you all thinking the same.

Just keep up the talk fellows, I love it. It is always nice to be right when the other side is starting to use ways to convince you when you know, because you have been in places they will never be or never would.

Harley
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Old September 26, 2005, 01:50 PM   #146
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Harley,

You and I have a serious disagreement on the effectiveness of birdshot. I wlll admit that I am jaded based upon my personal medical experience, but I feel that my hunting, and medcal experience correlate well.

I think that birds shot is excellent at contact distances, but not at range. After we conversed I measure my shots in my house the possible shots are 16 feet, 19 feet, and 17 feet, I have one, very unlikely shot of 12 feet. Based upon my training, and reading with Ayoob, Cirillo, Cooper, Farnam, Miculeck, and Smith and my past medical experience I would not choose birds shot. I have #1 and 0 buck. I know my shots and my penetration factors, I have 2 children in the house, yet i am comfortable with my choices.

Charles
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Old September 26, 2005, 01:57 PM   #147
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Charles:
I agree with you, HOWEVER, you also have shots at ranges WITHIN the ranges you posted.

I think that the point is that buckshot is deadly effective at any range up to and including 30' or more (covering most residential applications). Birdshot, while effective at contact ranges up to a few, dramatically loses effectiveness over a few feet.

The point Quinn misses is that buck is more versatile and you don't need to let the attacker get on top of you before your weapon is effective. At that range it might make more sense to carry a taser.
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Old September 26, 2005, 02:11 PM   #148
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Quote:
I agree with you, HOWEVER, you also have shots at ranges WITHIN the ranges you posted.
I hope not, based upon the use of cover. Short of being surprised. I have dogs, and alarm system, and I am a light sleeper. I cannot believe that a contact shot is likely, but I could be wrong. I firmly believe that buckshot will work at contact distances, this is based upon experience.

Charles
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Old September 26, 2005, 02:15 PM   #149
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My comments were NOT directed to any one poster, or any particualr posts. I apologize if this is what some interpreted.

I shared MY perceptions, observations and experiences in a general reply to simply state:

There is no Holy Grail, There is no hard fast rule Applies to life, and all that is in it. Including firearms, and loadings.

Besides I was raised right, right here on TFL, we don't attack the poster, we question and learn from the post of others. Having links and references is good if you have them.

See I am one that emails, PMs, calls folks that have real expereinces too. I do a lot of stuff off -forum always have.

I was reading some old posts by Erick Gelhaus , the moderator of this forum, back before TFL closed. I read a recent post of his - interesting to see he has not changed his opinions and advice to folks over the years in regard to the topic he was posting about.

I bug...err...contact Denny Hansen, from time to time, he actually has contacted me once about something. I appreciate and respect his input and sharing. Yes he bascially has the same take on things, he also calls them as he sees them, and if something has really really impressed him, and other trainers...he will say so. He may say - hold-up, gonna test a bit more- before he recommends a change, Denny has good instincts.

I ever get to meet and take a class from Awerbuck, I'm in a heap of trouble I figure Rich will show up and help Denny throw spent hulls/ shells at me to make my training experience ' memorable'.

Awerbuck has some interesting insights on shotguns and loadings - scary part is I have doing all my life much of what he suggests. My mentors and elders are the ones I listened to as a brat.

Maybe I can beat Awerbuck shooting skeet...just my luck he is good at that too.

We are supposed to all be on the same side , sharing experinces , strength and hope. The idea is to make it home at the end of the day, wake up, repeat.

That drawing of last breath comes soon enough as is.

I know, it is time to drive the Rifle Forum nuts. Someone do a Barrel Break-in cleaning thread.

Me...I side with Schumann and Gabe McMillan on this.

Was reading McMillian's old posts again I was...

Regards,

Steve
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Old September 26, 2005, 02:17 PM   #150
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But then again, you don't have to worry about killing your wife or chidren in the other room with bird shot. At distances of 30-40 feet I would not be in a shoot mode yet, not self defense unless I'm under fire at those distances and then I'd be seeking cover and/or distance.
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