Silly question: Why does a parallel comb = a premium cost?

JasonWilliam · May 16, 2009, 12:16 AM

Been doing some reading on the subject, and I'm left wondering why it seems (to me anyway) that you need to get into the $3k range to have options for parallel combed stocks? Everything I'm reading says this design is superior to drop combs for many shotgun uses (sport, hunting). If its truly better all around, why are drop combs sold at all anymore? Is the manufacturing cost so much greater?

Inquiring minds want to know

zippy13 · May 17, 2009, 11:44 AM

Premium costs are most likely the result of the intersection of the supply and demand curves. Demand is low, so the price is high. Another reason is that it takes more wood to make a high comb stock. Although members like BigJimP make a parallel comb a major consideration, they're a minority. An increasing minority, but still a minority.

For a long time shotguns with Monte Carlo stocks were limited to trap guns. Yes, a few could be found on the skeet fields, but very few. At the time many skeet guns had stocks low pitch stocks. With the development of sporting clays, many shooters re-analyzing the technical aspect of shot gunning and the popularity of parallel combs increased. Some intermediate grade ($3K) guns have parallel stock models. Many parallel combs are seen on premium comp guns and custom stocks. Yet, they are still a small percentage of the total market.

BigJimP · May 17, 2009, 06:23 PM

Good question Jason...

It sure doesn't cost much more to make a Monte Carlo stock than a Field stock ( in terms of wood ). There might be some minor tooling setup changes ( but it has to be minimal ).... If they put an adjustable comb into the Monte Carlo stock - then there is some extra machining / some extra hardware -- but it isn't much. So I don't think its a materials and time issue ....its a marketing issue...

Most of the shooters out there - don't want a Monte Carlo stock ...so companies make what they want. But if shooters really understood the issues of Fit - many of them would look at Monte Carlo stock options / especially if the upcharge was minimal. But that would take money and marketing - and dealer education / and shooter education vs just giving them what they think they want.

If they had a Monte Carlo stock option on a pump gun - it shouldn't really cost more ( except they have to inventory 2 different guns ).

I think in general Browning recognizes the issue - and they offer their pump gun the BPS - in a Trap configuration with a Monte Carlo stock at about 30% more ( around $ 150 upcharge ) - but they added some engraving to the receiver too. Companies like Beretta - offer very few Monte Carlo stocks - and my only hunch is they don't think they're losing market share because of it or they would change. In fact I think over the years Beretta has offered more Monte Carlo stocks - and they dropped them because they didn't sell.

But in general, mfg's put Monte Carlo stocks on some of their more expensive guns - because those are the customers that want them.

There are a lot of custom stock companies out there - and folks like Jack West, that make Monte Carlo stocks with adj combs on the Remington 1100 at a good price - so there are ways to get it done - without going to a real high end custom stock maker.

Some of this may be the companies being afraid that if they convinced people one gun was better for shooting everything - Sporting Clays, Skeet and bird hunting - they might not sell as many guns. Right now they market 40 or 50 models - some as "field guns", some as "sporting guns", some as "Skeet guns" .... and guys might figure out they only need 1 gun instead of 3 ...

Today - I see a lot more Monte Carlo combs on Sporting Clays guns. 10 years ago - there were very few. Same on Skeet shooters - on serious Skeet shooters I see a lot of Monte Carlo combs ( on custom or off the shelf guns ). Trap shooters have always been into Monte Carlo combs / and all 3 games allow you to shoot pre-mounted guns .... so Monte Carlo combs are starting to make inroads there.

olddrum1 · May 19, 2009, 01:17 AM

JasonWilliam, What kind of shooting are you doing that you might consider the need for a parallel comb?

BigJimP · May 19, 2009, 10:33 AM

In my opinion its not a question of what type of shotgunning you are doing - its a question of fit - and maintaining the same sight picture and same point of impact.

Its my opinion that a parallel comb gun fits you - season to season - whether you shoot in a T shirt or a heavy coat. If you shoot an angled comb gun - then where your cheek contacts the comb when you're wearing a T shirt vs a heavy coat - is a different point - and it changes the point of impact of the gun.

My primary guns for hunting upland birds, Sporting Clays and Skeet are all parallel comb guns - in 12, 20, 28ga and .410 . I see more and more shooters in sporting clays turning to parallel comb guns - as well as Skeet shooters / and Trap shooters have been there for a long time.

JasonWilliam · May 19, 2009, 03:57 PM

olddrum, my primary use is clay sports.

I'm new to the sport and I'm looking to pick up my first non-pump gun. Researching the subject, as well as advice like Jim's, Zippy13s and others has me convinced a parallel comb (or Monte Carlo style I gather its called) is the right call for me and my fit needs.

Dave McC · May 19, 2009, 07:53 PM

I've shot well with every Monte Carlo stocked shotgun I've owned.

Both of them.

The 870 TB I had needed a hard contact betwixt the comb and Zygomatic arch to get the POA right, but then it was very right.

I liked it so much that when a friend gave me a Sile made MC stock, I added it to Frankenstein and shot that very well until I had it on a goose hunt where it and five layers of Polypropelene, wool etc proved imcompatible for me.

A very tall friend has the stock now. He needs about a 17" LOP and the Sile gives him a start towards that.

In general, IMO,most folks can benefit from a MC or Parallel comb stock.

zippy13 · May 20, 2009, 01:04 AM

Like most things, the parallel comb has its advantages and disadvantages. With a conventional pitched stock, it you're a little off (hitting high or low) you can do the turtle (move you head a little up or down the comb) until you're right on. Miss-mount your pitched stock and you're gonna shoot high or low. With a straight stock what you've got is what you shoot. It can't be miss-mounted and you'll be right on every time. But, if the parallel comb is off, you'll be off, too. Just a slight change in your cheek fleshiness will change your point of impact. Some consider the adjustable parallel comb the best of both worlds.

oneounceload · May 20, 2009, 04:59 PM

IMO, Monte Carlo stocks work better for premounted shooting, "standard" stocks work better for low-gun. Either way, the gun has to fit you, without a proper fit, neither will work adequately for consistent target shooting

YMMV

olddrum1 · May 21, 2009, 12:23 AM

I pretty much agree with oneounce and z13, I shoot a p-stock on my trap guns in that I shoot premounted but find that it is a hinderance for sporting clays and skeet in that I shoot low gun. The original thought on these p-stock guns was that for the shooter with a problem with gun mounting and not getting ones cheek in the right place, these were just the cats meow. What I am seeing though is that almost every gun two weeks ago where I was shooting trap had the stocks modified with adjustable combs and pads. Almost all of thirty guns present. If these parallel stocks are so great then why all the modifications? If you take a look at most of Brownings line up, just a few are Parallel. The XS Skeet and Trap are parallel but the rest are of a drop comb style gun.

SeekHer · May 22, 2009, 11:07 AM

Olddrum, it goes back to stock fit--whether a conventional or a Monte Carlo stock made for the "general public" may or may not fit you, perfectly and that is the bug of it...

All my stocks have been custom fitted to the three of us: me, myself and I and that takes a lot of man hours to produce, hence the cost but I have a number of guns with adjustable stocks that my family shares until their guns are eventually built but then again they're still teenagers and growing...

I also use my competition guns in the field, for early upland birds but have to switch to field guns for ducks and geese because of stock fit...

BigJimP · May 22, 2009, 12:16 PM

They have adjustability built in - because some of us lose and gain weight / and we need a little adjustability and fine tuning on our gun fit.

Having them built with adjustability also means they are easy to sell - or pass on to one of the kids, etc - and easily adjusted.

A parallel comb does compensate for a bad mount - to a certain extent / and for many of us shooting pre-mounted guns at Skeet, Trap and Sporting Clays is way better than losing 4 or 5 targets because the gun got hung up on a shirt or vest a couple of times. Should we all practice our gun mount more - sure - and a parallel comb doesn't mean we can be sloppy, but it will help a little ( and be the same, whether we shoot in a T shirt or a heavy coat in the winter ) because I use my parallel comb guns for hunting quail, etc - as well as Skeet, Trap and Sporting Clays.

olddrum1 · May 22, 2009, 11:52 PM

JasonW. Not all Monte Carlo stocks are parallel stocks. Some are angled. Pull up Brownings firearms page and take a look at their Trap XT. That is a parrallel Monte Carlo stock while if you pull up their skeet gun, thats just a parrallel stock. They are two different things.

zippy13 · May 23, 2009, 12:54 AM

olddrum1

+1
A point well make. It's easy to forget that what we take for granted may be new and confusing and sometimes seemingly contradictory to a newbie.

JasonWilliam · May 23, 2009, 03:20 PM

Thanks olddrum. I didn't realize that.

I did a little further looking, trying to understand what it is that makes a "Monte Carlo" stock a Monte Carlo, if not a parallel comb. I must admit everything I've found indicates an MC has a parallel comb thus making it a MC style.

What is it about an MC stock that makes it an MC, if not the parallel comb?

Thanks again.

zippy13 · May 23, 2009, 05:46 PM

Here's a non-parallel (pitched) Monte Carlo...

And a reversed (negative) pitched w/ cheek piece...

olddrum1 · May 23, 2009, 11:02 PM

A monte carlo stock has a wrap over cheek piece. On some firearms the cheek piece has been, for lack of a better discription, sanded off but still has the profile on top of the stock as with the Browning XT trap. If that is not confusing enough. A parallel stock means the top line of the stock is parallel to the center line of the barrel instead of angled up or down.

BigJimP · May 24, 2009, 05:19 PM

Thanks Olddrum,

I've been guilty of mixing the 2 terms..

sernv99 · June 1, 2009, 06:56 AM

MC stock with a flat rib can be a hinderance to some shooters with longish necks. I had this problem on a O/U not too long ago. I was always shooting high because the MC stock on my gun was too "high" for the flat rib I had on my barrels. I have a long neck so if I continued to shoot with this gun, I had to really mash my cheek down on the stock to get proper sight picture (mid bead and front bead in figure 8/aligned).

just another consideration to think about.

zippy13 · June 1, 2009, 09:42 AM

sernv99

Your situation is one that supports arguments in favor of adjustable combs. You have three options: Loose some cheek flesh, lower the comb, or install a comb adjuster. Oops... there's two more options I almost forgot: Do nothing or get rid of the gun.

May 16, 2009, 12:16 AM	#1
JasonWilliam Junior member Join Date: May 9, 2009 Posts: 142	Silly question: Why does a parallel comb = a premium cost? Been doing some reading on the subject, and I'm left wondering why it seems (to me anyway) that you need to get into the $3k range to have options for parallel combed stocks? Everything I'm reading says this design is superior to drop combs for many shotgun uses (sport, hunting). If its truly better all around, why are drop combs sold at all anymore? Is the manufacturing cost so much greater? Inquiring minds want to know

May 17, 2009, 06:23 PM	#3
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	Good question Jason... It sure doesn't cost much more to make a Monte Carlo stock than a Field stock ( in terms of wood ). There might be some minor tooling setup changes ( but it has to be minimal ).... If they put an adjustable comb into the Monte Carlo stock - then there is some extra machining / some extra hardware -- but it isn't much. So I don't think its a materials and time issue ....its a marketing issue... Most of the shooters out there - don't want a Monte Carlo stock ...so companies make what they want. But if shooters really understood the issues of Fit - many of them would look at Monte Carlo stock options / especially if the upcharge was minimal. But that would take money and marketing - and dealer education / and shooter education vs just giving them what they think they want. If they had a Monte Carlo stock option on a pump gun - it shouldn't really cost more ( except they have to inventory 2 different guns ). I think in general Browning recognizes the issue - and they offer their pump gun the BPS - in a Trap configuration with a Monte Carlo stock at about 30% more ( around $ 150 upcharge ) - but they added some engraving to the receiver too. Companies like Beretta - offer very few Monte Carlo stocks - and my only hunch is they don't think they're losing market share because of it or they would change. In fact I think over the years Beretta has offered more Monte Carlo stocks - and they dropped them because they didn't sell. But in general, mfg's put Monte Carlo stocks on some of their more expensive guns - because those are the customers that want them. There are a lot of custom stock companies out there - and folks like Jack West, that make Monte Carlo stocks with adj combs on the Remington 1100 at a good price - so there are ways to get it done - without going to a real high end custom stock maker. Some of this may be the companies being afraid that if they convinced people one gun was better for shooting everything - Sporting Clays, Skeet and bird hunting - they might not sell as many guns. Right now they market 40 or 50 models - some as "field guns", some as "sporting guns", some as "Skeet guns" .... and guys might figure out they only need 1 gun instead of 3 ... Today - I see a lot more Monte Carlo combs on Sporting Clays guns. 10 years ago - there were very few. Same on Skeet shooters - on serious Skeet shooters I see a lot of Monte Carlo combs ( on custom or off the shelf guns ). Trap shooters have always been into Monte Carlo combs / and all 3 games allow you to shoot pre-mounted guns .... so Monte Carlo combs are starting to make inroads there. Last edited by BigJimP; May 18, 2009 at 01:19 PM.

May 22, 2009, 11:07 AM	#11
SeekHer Senior Member Join Date: August 4, 2005 Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada Posts: 295	Olddrum, it goes back to stock fit--whether a conventional or a Monte Carlo stock made for the "general public" may or may not fit you, perfectly and that is the bug of it... All my stocks have been custom fitted to the three of us: me, myself and I and that takes a lot of man hours to produce, hence the cost but I have a number of guns with adjustable stocks that my family shares until their guns are eventually built but then again they're still teenagers and growing... I also use my competition guns in the field, for early upland birds but have to switch to field guns for ducks and geese because of stock fit... __________________ There is a certain type of mentality that thinks if you make certain inanimate objects illegal their criminal misuse will disappear! When the human race dies out, it will be because it was brainwashed to be so totally, completely, utterly safe that it no longer dared to keep on living

May 17, 2009, 11:44 AM	#2
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,442	Premium costs are most likely the result of the intersection of the supply and demand curves. Demand is low, so the price is high. Another reason is that it takes more wood to make a high comb stock. Although members like BigJimP make a parallel comb a major consideration, they're a minority. An increasing minority, but still a minority. For a long time shotguns with Monte Carlo stocks were limited to trap guns. Yes, a few could be found on the skeet fields, but very few. At the time many skeet guns had stocks low pitch stocks. With the development of sporting clays, many shooters re-analyzing the technical aspect of shot gunning and the popularity of parallel combs increased. Some intermediate grade ($3K) guns have parallel stock models. Many parallel combs are seen on premium comp guns and custom stocks. Yet, they are still a small percentage of the total market.

May 19, 2009, 01:17 AM	#4
olddrum1 Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2008 Location: Mid Missouri Posts: 807	JasonWilliam, What kind of shooting are you doing that you might consider the need for a parallel comb?

May 19, 2009, 10:33 AM	#5
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	In my opinion its not a question of what type of shotgunning you are doing - its a question of fit - and maintaining the same sight picture and same point of impact. Its my opinion that a parallel comb gun fits you - season to season - whether you shoot in a T shirt or a heavy coat. If you shoot an angled comb gun - then where your cheek contacts the comb when you're wearing a T shirt vs a heavy coat - is a different point - and it changes the point of impact of the gun. My primary guns for hunting upland birds, Sporting Clays and Skeet are all parallel comb guns - in 12, 20, 28ga and .410 . I see more and more shooters in sporting clays turning to parallel comb guns - as well as Skeet shooters / and Trap shooters have been there for a long time.

May 19, 2009, 03:57 PM	#6
JasonWilliam Junior member Join Date: May 9, 2009 Posts: 142	olddrum, my primary use is clay sports. I'm new to the sport and I'm looking to pick up my first non-pump gun. Researching the subject, as well as advice like Jim's, Zippy13s and others has me convinced a parallel comb (or Monte Carlo style I gather its called) is the right call for me and my fit needs.

May 19, 2009, 07:53 PM	#7
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	I've shot well with every Monte Carlo stocked shotgun I've owned. Both of them. The 870 TB I had needed a hard contact betwixt the comb and Zygomatic arch to get the POA right, but then it was very right. I liked it so much that when a friend gave me a Sile made MC stock, I added it to Frankenstein and shot that very well until I had it on a goose hunt where it and five layers of Polypropelene, wool etc proved imcompatible for me. A very tall friend has the stock now. He needs about a 17" LOP and the Sile gives him a start towards that. In general, IMO,most folks can benefit from a MC or Parallel comb stock.

May 20, 2009, 01:04 AM	#8
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,442	Like most things, the parallel comb has its advantages and disadvantages. With a conventional pitched stock, it you're a little off (hitting high or low) you can do the turtle (move you head a little up or down the comb) until you're right on. Miss-mount your pitched stock and you're gonna shoot high or low. With a straight stock what you've got is what you shoot. It can't be miss-mounted and you'll be right on every time. But, if the parallel comb is off, you'll be off, too. Just a slight change in your cheek fleshiness will change your point of impact. Some consider the adjustable parallel comb the best of both worlds.

May 20, 2009, 04:59 PM	#9
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	IMO, Monte Carlo stocks work better for premounted shooting, "standard" stocks work better for low-gun. Either way, the gun has to fit you, without a proper fit, neither will work adequately for consistent target shooting YMMV

May 21, 2009, 12:23 AM	#10
olddrum1 Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2008 Location: Mid Missouri Posts: 807	I pretty much agree with oneounce and z13, I shoot a p-stock on my trap guns in that I shoot premounted but find that it is a hinderance for sporting clays and skeet in that I shoot low gun. The original thought on these p-stock guns was that for the shooter with a problem with gun mounting and not getting ones cheek in the right place, these were just the cats meow. What I am seeing though is that almost every gun two weeks ago where I was shooting trap had the stocks modified with adjustable combs and pads. Almost all of thirty guns present. If these parallel stocks are so great then why all the modifications? If you take a look at most of Brownings line up, just a few are Parallel. The XS Skeet and Trap are parallel but the rest are of a drop comb style gun.

May 22, 2009, 12:16 PM	#12
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	They have adjustability built in - because some of us lose and gain weight / and we need a little adjustability and fine tuning on our gun fit. Having them built with adjustability also means they are easy to sell - or pass on to one of the kids, etc - and easily adjusted. A parallel comb does compensate for a bad mount - to a certain extent / and for many of us shooting pre-mounted guns at Skeet, Trap and Sporting Clays is way better than losing 4 or 5 targets because the gun got hung up on a shirt or vest a couple of times. Should we all practice our gun mount more - sure - and a parallel comb doesn't mean we can be sloppy, but it will help a little ( and be the same, whether we shoot in a T shirt or a heavy coat in the winter ) because I use my parallel comb guns for hunting quail, etc - as well as Skeet, Trap and Sporting Clays.

May 22, 2009, 11:52 PM	#13
olddrum1 Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2008 Location: Mid Missouri Posts: 807	JasonW. Not all Monte Carlo stocks are parallel stocks. Some are angled. Pull up Brownings firearms page and take a look at their Trap XT. That is a parrallel Monte Carlo stock while if you pull up their skeet gun, thats just a parrallel stock. They are two different things.

May 23, 2009, 12:54 AM	#14
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,442	olddrum1 +1 A point well make. It's easy to forget that what we take for granted may be new and confusing and sometimes seemingly contradictory to a newbie.

May 23, 2009, 03:20 PM	#15
JasonWilliam Junior member Join Date: May 9, 2009 Posts: 142	Thanks olddrum. I didn't realize that. I did a little further looking, trying to understand what it is that makes a "Monte Carlo" stock a Monte Carlo, if not a parallel comb. I must admit everything I've found indicates an MC has a parallel comb thus making it a MC style. What is it about an MC stock that makes it an MC, if not the parallel comb? Thanks again.

May 23, 2009, 05:46 PM	#16
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,442	Here's a non-parallel (pitched) Monte Carlo... And a reversed (negative) pitched w/ cheek piece...

May 23, 2009, 11:02 PM	#17
olddrum1 Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2008 Location: Mid Missouri Posts: 807	A monte carlo stock has a wrap over cheek piece. On some firearms the cheek piece has been, for lack of a better discription, sanded off but still has the profile on top of the stock as with the Browning XT trap. If that is not confusing enough. A parallel stock means the top line of the stock is parallel to the center line of the barrel instead of angled up or down.

May 24, 2009, 05:19 PM	#18
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	Thanks Olddrum, I've been guilty of mixing the 2 terms..

June 1, 2009, 06:56 AM	#19
sernv99 Member Join Date: May 23, 2008 Posts: 42	MC stock with a flat rib can be a hinderance to some shooters with longish necks. I had this problem on a O/U not too long ago. I was always shooting high because the MC stock on my gun was too "high" for the flat rib I had on my barrels. I have a long neck so if I continued to shoot with this gun, I had to really mash my cheek down on the stock to get proper sight picture (mid bead and front bead in figure 8/aligned). just another consideration to think about.

June 1, 2009, 09:42 AM	#20
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,442	sernv99 Your situation is one that supports arguments in favor of adjustable combs. You have three options: Loose some cheek flesh, lower the comb, or install a comb adjuster. Oops... there's two more options I almost forgot: Do nothing or get rid of the gun.