S&B 12ga 00buck

Blast · August 10, 2002, 04:23 AM

Is it any good? 12 pellet - max charge, will it kick the smile from your face? How will it do from a 20'' imp cyl?

labgrade · August 10, 2002, 08:39 AM

It'll likely do "good enough" within 15 yards - maybe less.

Only way to be sure is to shoot it at various ranges & count the pellet hits for a certain size area - in your barrel & choke.

dfaugh · August 10, 2002, 08:41 AM

The 3" magnum S&B--15 pellets on 20" Mossberg, cylinder bore, "Special Purpose" with folding stock...Not only will it kick the smile from your face, it'll knock your A$$ into the next county...This is the biggest wack I get from any of my guns, including milsurps w/ metal buttplates...However, It spread out nicely from this gun(18"-24" pattern at about 30'), and (minimal, 'cause it HURTS) testing says it'll make hamburger outa anything gets in its way...Figure a total of 105 .32 caliber projectiles (7 x 15) will handle pretty much any HD scenario, or at least allow me time to retrieve even more firepower

labgrade · August 11, 2002, 12:57 AM

My only point is = you have to shoot it in what you have.

If it patterns to your expected use = you have a dandy load. If it doesn't (likely), you'll have to "exchange your views" a bit towards reality. Seldom have I ever run across a load that meets the expectation of a "00 buck load to kill everything within 50 yards," is all.

Doesn't & will not happen.

Shoot the thing & see what it does for patterns. If it does everything you want within your range (barrel & choke) expectation, I'd buy a case-load.

If it doesn't, I'd try a few others till I got something that lived up to my expectations. Most never find "that Holy Load" in buck-shot 'cause it doesn't exist. There's only the best blend you can have for what you want to do ....

Anybody's got a 50-yard 00 buckshot load that "patterns to beat ll," well, I'm willing to ,1) see it in person & 2) buy 'em a glass of their choice.

I've yet to see it .... (may be quite willing to go this whole bet at 25 yards .... buckshot prettyu much sucks past 20 yards ....

DML · August 11, 2002, 02:21 AM

Labgrade:

Don't bet your shirt on it. There a number of Vang Comped barrels out there that will do amazing things. It's luck of the draw, but some of the Gunsite instructors have VCS modified barrels that shoot pattern so small at 25 yards that I won't write them here for fear of being called a liar. i have talked to reliable people who regularly bowl over coyotes at 50 yards with a VCS barrel and Federal Tactical 00 (H-132 or LE-132). I have personally watched a Banff Park warden shoot at 18X24 sheets of paper at 50 meters with a VCS barrel a Federal Premium 00 and keep all 9 pellets on the paper with 6 well within the outline of a man.

Some of the new shells available will give amazing performance at ranges never thought possible with a shotgun loaded with buckshot. Hornady TAP ammo comes to mind and a company named SHOT had some really neat stuff.

I agree that none of these shells will kill "everything" within 50 yards, but they will do some serious damage.

Smokin Guns · August 11, 2002, 04:05 PM

With the 870 or 590 it will kick you hard at the shoulder, shoot from the hip! The S&B 00 Ammo is sitting at the base of the stock.

**Mike Irwin** · August 11, 2002, 08:46 PM

I've witnessed a Vangcomp put ALL 9 pellets from a 3" 00 buck load into the chest area of a mansized target at 75 yards.

They can be rather amazing.

I've got quite a bit of the S&B 12-shot 2 3/4" buckshot. It kicks, but it's bearable.

My house ammo is, however, Remington No. 4 buck, but 5 rounds of the S&B ride in a carrier on the buttstock.

Don't shoot from the hip unless you really like missing a lot.

Oleg Volk · August 11, 2002, 09:05 PM

Patterns poorly from some SGs, well from others. Kick isn't bad, a push rather than a shove. Won't fit box magazines designed for 2 3/4" shells.

labgrade · August 11, 2002, 10:16 PM

I'll defer to those who know more than I do about the Van Camps - & stand corrected. Just made me think of the "card guns" which I though an impossibility too .... live & learn.

I do thank you for the correction, guys.

I should have stated that "with a no-VanCamp" shotgun

you'd be hard=pressed ... yada. Buck's an outstandig choice for somethings, but I'd dare say that most think it'll do a lot more & further out than it really does - unless ...

Best bet though is to shoot the stuff at various ranges & see what it does. Without that, I'd say you're only guessing.

Bruce626 · August 11, 2002, 10:51 PM

I run a low-budget Mossberg 500 pump 18" bbl synthetic everything sidesaddled SG... much to my amazement, my cheap @ss gun loves cheap-@ass ammo, i.e., the Estate SWAT 00 Buck... patterns extremely well, lower recoil, minimal bucks. Sometimes life is good.

Dave R · August 11, 2002, 11:11 PM

I don't like it, because it does not use a shot cup to contain the shot as it goes down your bore. Those lead pellets just rub against your barrel and leave nasty looking lead streaks that are difficult to remove. And based on the size of those lead streaks (in my 870, anyway) the pellets are getting deformed pretty badly. Which probably explains why it doesn't group well in my shotgun.

Your gun might like it, but mine does not.

Bruce626 · August 12, 2002, 12:26 AM

Dave R:

One common thread on this forum is how shotguns vary in their performance with ammo X or ammo Y.

My point is simply that one particular gun likes one particular brand of ammo (as discussed widely) and that I'm glad mine doesn't insist on the world's most expensive ammo.

The rest of your comment strikes me as more of a cleaning problem than a shooting problem, given that mine puts all of the pellets about where they should go.

**Mike Irwin** · August 12, 2002, 10:11 AM

Labgrade,

Van Camps is a frozen fish company. I don't think you'd get very good patterns shooting smelts out of your 12 gauge.

labgrade · August 12, 2002, 12:06 PM

Wouldn't the little ones act like those flechette rounds ...

Still have to pattern though.

dfaugh · August 12, 2002, 03:03 PM

I don't WANT tight patterns with a HD shotgun...IMO, one of the advantages of the shotgun, (and the S&B with no shot cup) is that it spreads out, thereby lessening my need to aim accurately under stress...Figure even 2 or 3 00 pellets in a BG is sumthin'...
Am I stupid, or what? Missing something?

**Mike Irwin** · August 12, 2002, 03:16 PM

"Am I missing something"

Yeah, at standard household ranges the shot pattern isn't going to spread much at all.

You're going to need to be on target.

Bruce626 · August 12, 2002, 04:00 PM

One of the advertised features of the Federal Personal Defense shotshell is that it is specifically designed to spread out more quickly.

When I patterned this load in my cylinder bore 18.5 in bbl M500, I did an un-scientific comparison with regular birdshot, but I did not have an exactly "similar" load in terms of shot size. The Federal PD is a #2 birdshot reduced recoil load and it did appear to spread a couple of inches wider than the #7.5 birdshot (target load) did at about 20 feet.

I didn't try anything closer to the target, but at some point they'd both just punch a fist-sized hole in the paper.

Al Thompson · August 12, 2002, 04:58 PM

Bruce, here's some data from one of my tests "upclose and personal"..

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...97#post1082197

dfaugh · August 14, 2002, 07:46 AM

Yeah, but my HD situation is a bit different...Very large house, sveral hundre feet to next houses...and, without alot of explanation, I could, righteously, be engaging targets out to 75 yards...I know that at really short ranges, anything coming out of a shotgun is gonna act like one big slug, and I need to be on target (but hell, with those magnum S&B rounds the muzzle blast could be lethal!)...But because I could easily be engaging at much longer distances, I'd rather have a nice "spread" to potentially increase my "hit ratio"...hence the 00 buck which will still be carrying more energy than something lighter

August 10, 2002, 04:23 AM	#1
Blast Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2002 Location: NorthernKY Posts: 142	S&B 12ga 00buck Is it any good? 12 pellet - max charge, will it kick the smile from your face? How will it do from a 20'' imp cyl?

August 10, 2002, 08:41 AM	#3
dfaugh Senior Member Join Date: January 17, 2002 Location: Upstate NY Posts: 1,715	I use The 3" magnum S&B--15 pellets on 20" Mossberg, cylinder bore, "Special Purpose" with folding stock...Not only will it kick the smile from your face, it'll knock your A$$ into the next county...This is the biggest wack I get from any of my guns, including milsurps w/ metal buttplates...However, It spread out nicely from this gun(18"-24" pattern at about 30'), and (minimal, 'cause it HURTS) testing says it'll make hamburger outa anything gets in its way...Figure a total of 105 .32 caliber projectiles (7 x 15) will handle pretty much any HD scenario, or at least allow me time to retrieve even more firepower __________________ "If you Listen to Fools, the Mob Rules" "No one has the answer, but one thing is true. You'e got to turn on evil, when its coming after you. You've gotta face it down,and when it tries to hide, you've got to go in after it, and never be denied. Time is running out...Let's roll. Let's roll for freedom, let's roll for love. We're going after satan, on the wings of a dove. Let's roll for freedom, let's roll for truth. Let's not let our children grow up fearful in their youth."

August 11, 2002, 02:21 AM	#5
DML Senior Member Join Date: November 24, 2000 Location: Aridzona Posts: 257	Labgrade: Don't bet your shirt on it. There a number of Vang Comped barrels out there that will do amazing things. It's luck of the draw, but some of the Gunsite instructors have VCS modified barrels that shoot pattern so small at 25 yards that I won't write them here for fear of being called a liar. i have talked to reliable people who regularly bowl over coyotes at 50 yards with a VCS barrel and Federal Tactical 00 (H-132 or LE-132). I have personally watched a Banff Park warden shoot at 18X24 sheets of paper at 50 meters with a VCS barrel a Federal Premium 00 and keep all 9 pellets on the paper with 6 well within the outline of a man. Some of the new shells available will give amazing performance at ranges never thought possible with a shotgun loaded with buckshot. Hornady TAP ammo comes to mind and a company named SHOT had some really neat stuff. I agree that none of these shells will kill "everything" within 50 yards, but they will do some serious damage. __________________ Experience is what you get when you were expecting something else.

August 11, 2002, 04:05 PM	#6
Smokin Guns Junior Member Join Date: July 21, 2002 Posts: 4	"S&B 00" With the 870 or 590 it will kick you hard at the shoulder, shoot from the hip! The S&B 00 Ammo is sitting at the base of the stock.

August 11, 2002, 09:05 PM	#8
Oleg Volk Staff Alumnus Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 7,022	Patterns poorly from some SGs, well from others. Kick isn't bad, a push rather than a shove. Won't fit box magazines designed for 2 3/4" shells. __________________ Oleg "peacemonger" Volk blog.olevolk.net

August 10, 2002, 08:39 AM	#2
labgrade Member In Memoriam Join Date: November 29, 1999 Location: west of a small town, CO Posts: 4,346	It'll likely do "good enough" within 15 yards - maybe less. Only way to be sure is to shoot it at various ranges & count the pellet hits for a certain size area - in your barrel & choke.

August 11, 2002, 12:57 AM	#4
labgrade Member In Memoriam Join Date: November 29, 1999 Location: west of a small town, CO Posts: 4,346	My only point is = you have to shoot it in what you have. If it patterns to your expected use = you have a dandy load. If it doesn't (likely), you'll have to "exchange your views" a bit towards reality. Seldom have I ever run across a load that meets the expectation of a "00 buck load to kill everything within 50 yards," is all. Doesn't & will not happen. Shoot the thing & see what it does for patterns. If it does everything you want within your range (barrel & choke) expectation, I'd buy a case-load. If it doesn't, I'd try a few others till I got something that lived up to my expectations. Most never find "that Holy Load" in buck-shot 'cause it doesn't exist. There's only the best blend you can have for what you want to do .... Anybody's got a 50-yard 00 buckshot load that "patterns to beat ll," well, I'm willing to ,1) see it in person & 2) buy 'em a glass of their choice. I've yet to see it .... (may be quite willing to go this whole bet at 25 yards .... buckshot prettyu much sucks past 20 yards ....

August 11, 2002, 08:46 PM	#7
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	I've witnessed a Vangcomp put ALL 9 pellets from a 3" 00 buck load into the chest area of a mansized target at 75 yards. They can be rather amazing. I've got quite a bit of the S&B 12-shot 2 3/4" buckshot. It kicks, but it's bearable. My house ammo is, however, Remington No. 4 buck, but 5 rounds of the S&B ride in a carrier on the buttstock. Don't shoot from the hip unless you really like missing a lot. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

August 11, 2002, 10:16 PM	#9
labgrade Member In Memoriam Join Date: November 29, 1999 Location: west of a small town, CO Posts: 4,346	I'll defer to those who know more than I do about the Van Camps - & stand corrected. Just made me think of the "card guns" which I though an impossibility too .... live & learn. I do thank you for the correction, guys. I should have stated that "with a no-VanCamp" shotgun you'd be hard=pressed ... yada. Buck's an outstandig choice for somethings, but I'd dare say that most think it'll do a lot more & further out than it really does - unless ... Best bet though is to shoot the stuff at various ranges & see what it does. Without that, I'd say you're only guessing.

August 11, 2002, 10:51 PM	#10
Bruce626 Senior Member Join Date: June 26, 2002 Location: Handgun-Free Chicago thanks to Gun-grabber Daley Posts: 167	One can luck out once in a while I run a low-budget Mossberg 500 pump 18" bbl synthetic everything sidesaddled SG... much to my amazement, my cheap @ss gun loves cheap-@ass ammo, i.e., the Estate SWAT 00 Buck... patterns extremely well, lower recoil, minimal bucks. Sometimes life is good.

August 11, 2002, 11:11 PM	#11
Dave R Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2000 Location: Idaho Posts: 6,073	I don't like it, because it does not use a shot cup to contain the shot as it goes down your bore. Those lead pellets just rub against your barrel and leave nasty looking lead streaks that are difficult to remove. And based on the size of those lead streaks (in my 870, anyway) the pellets are getting deformed pretty badly. Which probably explains why it doesn't group well in my shotgun. Your gun might like it, but mine does not. __________________ I am Pro-Rights (on gun issues).

August 12, 2002, 12:26 AM	#12
Bruce626 Senior Member Join Date: June 26, 2002 Location: Handgun-Free Chicago thanks to Gun-grabber Daley Posts: 167	Dave R: One common thread on this forum is how shotguns vary in their performance with ammo X or ammo Y. My point is simply that one particular gun likes one particular brand of ammo (as discussed widely) and that I'm glad mine doesn't insist on the world's most expensive ammo. The rest of your comment strikes me as more of a cleaning problem than a shooting problem, given that mine puts all of the pellets about where they should go.

August 12, 2002, 10:11 AM	#13
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	Labgrade, Van Camps is a frozen fish company. I don't think you'd get very good patterns shooting smelts out of your 12 gauge. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

August 12, 2002, 12:06 PM	#14
labgrade Member In Memoriam Join Date: November 29, 1999 Location: west of a small town, CO Posts: 4,346	Wouldn't the little ones act like those flechette rounds ... Still have to pattern though.

August 12, 2002, 03:03 PM	#15
dfaugh Senior Member Join Date: January 17, 2002 Location: Upstate NY Posts: 1,715	Err..OK I don't WANT tight patterns with a HD shotgun...IMO, one of the advantages of the shotgun, (and the S&B with no shot cup) is that it spreads out, thereby lessening my need to aim accurately under stress...Figure even 2 or 3 00 pellets in a BG is sumthin'... Am I stupid, or what? Missing something? __________________ "If you Listen to Fools, the Mob Rules" "No one has the answer, but one thing is true. You'e got to turn on evil, when its coming after you. You've gotta face it down,and when it tries to hide, you've got to go in after it, and never be denied. Time is running out...Let's roll. Let's roll for freedom, let's roll for love. We're going after satan, on the wings of a dove. Let's roll for freedom, let's roll for truth. Let's not let our children grow up fearful in their youth."

August 12, 2002, 03:16 PM	#16
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	"Am I missing something" Yeah, at standard household ranges the shot pattern isn't going to spread much at all. You're going to need to be on target. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

August 12, 2002, 04:00 PM	#17
Bruce626 Senior Member Join Date: June 26, 2002 Location: Handgun-Free Chicago thanks to Gun-grabber Daley Posts: 167	Spread Wanted... One of the advertised features of the Federal Personal Defense shotshell is that it is specifically designed to spread out more quickly. When I patterned this load in my cylinder bore 18.5 in bbl M500, I did an un-scientific comparison with regular birdshot, but I did not have an exactly "similar" load in terms of shot size. The Federal PD is a #2 birdshot reduced recoil load and it did appear to spread a couple of inches wider than the #7.5 birdshot (target load) did at about 20 feet. I didn't try anything closer to the target, but at some point they'd both just punch a fist-sized hole in the paper.

August 12, 2002, 04:58 PM	#18
Al Thompson Staff Alumnus Join Date: May 2, 1999 Location: South Carolina Posts: 3,611	Bruce, here's some data from one of my tests "upclose and personal".. http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...97#post1082197 __________________ http://www.scfirearms.org/

August 14, 2002, 07:46 AM	#19
dfaugh Senior Member Join Date: January 17, 2002 Location: Upstate NY Posts: 1,715	Mike I. Yeah, but my HD situation is a bit different...Very large house, sveral hundre feet to next houses...and, without alot of explanation, I could, righteously, be engaging targets out to 75 yards...I know that at really short ranges, anything coming out of a shotgun is gonna act like one big slug, and I need to be on target (but hell, with those magnum S&B rounds the muzzle blast could be lethal!)...But because I could easily be engaging at much longer distances, I'd rather have a nice "spread" to potentially increase my "hit ratio"...hence the 00 buck which will still be carrying more energy than something lighter __________________ "If you Listen to Fools, the Mob Rules" "No one has the answer, but one thing is true. You'e got to turn on evil, when its coming after you. You've gotta face it down,and when it tries to hide, you've got to go in after it, and never be denied. Time is running out...Let's roll. Let's roll for freedom, let's roll for love. We're going after satan, on the wings of a dove. Let's roll for freedom, let's roll for truth. Let's not let our children grow up fearful in their youth."